GwR HSTs to be stood down

[irish_rail]

Hearing a (very very strong) rumour that the GWR 2+4 HSTs are to be withdrawn completely by December 2023. No plans to replace them either but it will be bye bye to Cornish half hourly. A regressive step in my opinion, I only hope it turns out not to be true.

 

[hexagon789]

Hearing a (very very strong) rumour that the GWR 2+4 HSTs are to be withdrawn completely by December 2023. No plans to replace them either but it will be bye bye to Cornish half hourly. A regressive step in my opinion, I only hope it turns out not to be true.

It is correct apparently.

Slightly over half the sets will be withdrawn in May 2023, the balance in December.

At the same time Laira is to take over full maintenance responsibility for the 802s.

Cardiff to Plymouth/Penzance gets split at Taunton/Plymouth. Portsmouth down to 3-cars to free up stock for the former section. Cornwall then goes back to hourly and the IETs make extra calls.

That appears to be the plan.

Been reported on two other forums and apparently was mentioned in a GWR fleet meeting today.

 

[Express380]

It is correct apparently.

Slightly over half the sets will be withdrawn in May 2023, the balance in December.

At the same time Laira is to take over full maintenance responsibility for the 802s.

Cardiff to Plymouth/Penzance gets split at Taunton/Plymouth. Portsmouth down to 3-cars to free up stock for the former section. Cornwall then goes back to hourly and the IETs make extra calls.

That appears to be the plan.

So Cornwall will have just IETs with the exception of the 150s on branches when the Hsts leave?

 

[irish_rail]

It is correct apparently.

Slightly over half the sets will be withdrawn in May 2023, the balance in December.

At the same time Laira is to take over full maintenance responsibility for the 802s.

Cardiff to Plymouth/Penzance gets split at Taunton/Plymouth. Portsmouth down to 3-cars to free up stock for the former section. Cornwall then goes back to hourly and the IETs make extra calls.

That appears to be the plan.

Been reported on two other forums and apparently was mentioned in a GWR fleet meeting today.

Thanks for confirming thats more or less what I heard to. Begs a lot of questions frankly.

So Cornwall will have just IETs with the exception of the 150s on branches when the Hsts leave?

Maybe some 158s will continue? Either way the far south west is a lower, with the intercity services no doubt slowed down, I guess the Londons will all be stopping St Germans , Saltash etc .

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Portsmouth down to 3-cars to free up stock for the former section.

Not good at all although will be solved when 3-165s are finally all displaced by 769s, whenever that will be.

So Cornwall will have just IETs with the exception of the 150s on branches when the Hsts leave?

Cornwall regularly gets 158s.

 

[fgwrich]

It is correct apparently.

Slightly over half the sets will be withdrawn in May 2023, the balance in December.

At the same time Laira is to take over full maintenance responsibility for the 802s.

Cardiff to Plymouth/Penzance gets split at Taunton/Plymouth. Portsmouth down to 3-cars to free up stock for the former section. Cornwall then goes back to hourly and the IETs make extra calls.

That appears to be the plan.

Ah great, a perfect plan all round!

So Cardiff - Portsmouth returns to being overcrowded (potential flashbacks to the memories of the overcrowding problems of 2007?), Cornwall returns to an hourly service pattern despite all the work put into the Half Hourly timetable and the already fairly slow Intercity services to London end up finding themselves slowed down further to pick up the slack. First Kernow / Transport for Cornwall start taking notes now!

I've felt for a long time GWR has overstretched itself (the haste to see off the 143s and 153s for example, chasing to rely on stretching the 150 / 158 / HST Fleets further), reliance on 769s releasing Turbo's to fix the West Fleet issues etc. But this seems to be service cutbacks by cutting the fleet. All very disappointing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thanks for confirming thats more or less what I heard to. Begs a lot of questions frankly.

Are these not questions already answered by Southern binning off 455s and Southeastern looking extremely likely to invest in a smaller fleet? Not that I agree with it, mind you.

The increase of almost all London services from five to nine cars will hopefully off set potential overcrowding from a minor reduction in Cornish services.

So Cardiff - Portsmouth becomes even more overcrowded

This is my main concern. It's jam-packed enough on weekdays.

 

[DanNCL]

I can only hope that unannounced will be a cascade of DMUs from TFW to compensate, otherwise this’ll be a disaster

The increase of almost all London services from five to nine cars will also off set potential overcrowding from a minor reduction in Cornish services.

Where are these extra 9 cars coming from?

 

[Parallel]

This is disappointing if true. The trains seem just as busy in the West and on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route as they did pre-COVID, so reducing capacity seems a bit of a silly decision, especially when other DMUs may become available in the near future. I don't think this will go down well on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route... Although many of these services get shortformed anyway so I doubt passengers would notice any difference beyond "oh, another overcrowded GWR service". I wonder if those who made these decisions regularly travel on this route. If they do not, I'd encourage them to.

 

[Express380]

Cornwall regularly gets 158s.

Yep know that and I use those diagrams whenever I can when I head out anywhere on the Cornish Mainline the comment I replied to sounded IMO that IETs would be doing all the workings

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Where are these extra 9 cars coming from?

I don't know, but GWR and Cornish media seem to be shouting about a major incoming from 9 carriage units, and that being the reason Penzance Depot is getting an upgrade.

Portsmouth and Devon Metro are a graver overcrowding situation than Cornwall at the moment. Those I'm concerned about as Portsmouth will be directly affected and suffers many two-car substitutions; Devon Metro risks the splitting of 4 car 150s into 2 car formations so that the 3 or 4 Turbos usually on Exmouths can be used elsewhere. As is greatly known, Devon Metro is a busy old route.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for confirming thats more or less what I heard to. Begs a lot of questions frankly.

Unfortunately I think a lot of people are going to get unpleasant surprises in May and December next year.

Ah great, a perfect plan all round. So Cardiff - Portsmouth becomes even more overcrowded, Cornwall goes hourly despite all the work put into the Half Hourly timetable and the IC Services get even more slowed down.

There will be some similar stories around the country, but the West does look to be getting particularly bad cuts.

Not good at all although will be solved when 3-165s are finally all displaced by 769s, whenever that will be.

Goodness knows, but the 769s are part of the plan.

I don't know, but GWR and Cornish media seem to be shouting about a major incoming from 9 carriage units, and that being the reason Penzance Depot is getting an upgrade.

It's just the 802 maintenance going in house at Laira.

I can only hope that unannounced will be a cascade of DMUs from TFW to compensate, otherwise this’ll be a didisaster

There is no plan for any replacement of the 16 HSTs on a like-for-like basis unfortunately, so I sadly doubt thete will be any external DMU cascades from other TOCs.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's just the 802 maintenance going in house at Laira.

I'm not talking about that (where is it currently btw, North Pole isn't it?) I mean this:

Longer trains with more passengers can now come to Cornwall

Good news for train commuters and holidaymakers

www.cornwalllive.com

Longer trains will be able to travel from London to Penzance thanks to a new £6.55m investment in Cornwall.

Three new sidings are to be constructed in Penzance by Network Rail with investment form GWR too, to allow more carriages to come down to the Duchy. The new, longer sidings – which are effectively laybys for trains – will mean GWR will be better able to service and run longer, nine-carriage trains between London Paddington and Penzance.

The Ponsandane sidings will be built to the west of Long Rock Depot which is around one mile from Penzance station and mean Penzance will be able to accommodate longer trains by providing a dedicated place for the trains to be stored, cleaned and prepared before re-entering service. Construction of the new sidings will start later this month and is expected to be completed within a year. Once complete, the new sidings will enable an increase in capacity near the depot better allowing GWR to clean and maintain its fleet, supporting much needed business, tourism and connectivity in Cornwall.

Multi-million-pound upgrade in Cornwall set to improve reliability | Rail Technology Magazine

A £6.55m investment from Network Rail and Great Western Railway (GWR) is set to perform upgrades in Penzance improvin

www.railtechnologymagazine.com

A £6.55m investment from Network Rail and Great Western Railway (GWR) is set to perform upgrades in Penzance improving reliability for services in Cornwall.

The investment will see the construction of three new sidings in Penzance allowing longer trains to run and be maintained in Cornwall.

The longer sidings act as laybys for trains and will allow GWR to run longer nine-carriage services between London Paddington and Penzance.

The Ponsandane sidings will provide a dedicated place for trains to be stored and prepared for re-entering service.

Network Rail are set to provide £4.8m of the funding with GWR set to invest the remaining £1.75m

Christian Irwin, Network Rail’s Industry Programme Director (South West) spoke on the work taking place in Cornwall.

Mr Irwin said: “We are delighted to be continuing our investment into the railway in Cornwall.

“Over the last 18 months, we’ve made a number of significant improvements to rail travel in the county.

“[This includes] completing the biggest track investment on the St Ives Bay line in 60 years [and] upgrading to the Newquay branch line.

“It has never been a more important time to invest in rail and ensure the railway is an efficient, affordable and reliable green transport option for residents.”

Network Rail is also continuing to back the plans for the proposed future construction of the Mid-Cornwall Metro.

Matt Barnes, GWR Head of Strategic Service Development commented on what the investment will bring to passengers in Cornwall.

Mr Barnes said: “This wider investment across the South West has helped GWR to be able to deliver more and better train services.

“[This offers] passengers more seats on a more resilient and reliable railway.

“As we seek to build back better, we are always looking at ways to make travelling with GWR a simpler, more accessible experience.”

Discussion has suggested GWR will use these sidings to diagram 802s so that they can eliminate splits at Plymouth, which are complicated and cause 5 carriage trains in Cornwall rather than longer. If all (or most) London trains become 9 carriages, that will offset some of the damage done by the loss of Plymouth - Penzance services.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It is correct apparently.

Slightly over half the sets will be withdrawn in May 2023, the balance in December.

At the same time Laira is to take over full maintenance responsibility for the 802s.

Cardiff to Plymouth/Penzance gets split at Taunton/Plymouth. Portsmouth down to 3-cars to free up stock for the former section. Cornwall then goes back to hourly and the IETs make extra calls.

That appears to be the plan.

Been reported on two other forums and apparently was mentioned in a GWR fleet meeting today.

I’ve heard the plan is to use cl802s on Cardiff to Penzance workings vice 2+4 HSTs.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm not talking about that (where is it currently btw, North Pole isn't it?) I mean this:

Longer trains with more passengers can now come to Cornwall

Good news for train commuters and holidaymakers

www.cornwalllive.com

Discussion has suggested GWR will use these sidings to diagram 802s so that they can eliminate splits at Plymouth.

If all (or most) London trains become 9 carriages, that will offset some of the damage done by the loss of Plymouth - Penzance services.

Oh right, I think that's simply rearranging diagrams so that most Paddington-Plymouth trains which extend to Penzance become 9-car instead of two 5s splitting off a set.

Was mentioned somewhere else in the forum some weeks ago.

No the plan is to use cl802s released from the post covid changes to IET services to go onto Cardiff to Penzance workings vice 2+4 HSTs.

If that is correct, that is certainly much better but I haven't seen this option mentioned.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thinking about it, I would assume this would eliminate the plans (which already started coming to fruition with the S.I. Bay Line closing for the works) to run five carriage trains to St. Ives, as spare stock will be needed on the mainline now. I wouldn't be surprised to see Okehampton reduced to two-hourly either, not that that would necessarily be the end of the world. That pointless daily Axminster train can always go back to SWR anyway, who can't be bothered to run 2tph north of London and have dramatically reduced Yeovil extensions.

 

[Express380]

No the plan is to use cl802s released from the post covid changes to IET services to go onto Cardiff to Penzance workings vice 2+4 HSTs.

Good I hope we keep our half hourly service in Cornwall as it's pretty well used throughout the day

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Oh right, I think that's simply rearranging diagrams so that most Paddington-Plymouth trains which extend to Penzance become 9-car instead of two 5s splitting off a set.

Paddington to Penzance workings are already largely 9 car IETs the issue is the large amount of early and late 9 car workings between Penzance and Plymouth as there’s not enough room currently at Long Rock to fit them in.

 

[DanNCL]

I don't know, but GWR and Cornish media seem to be shouting about a major incoming from 9 carriage units, and that being the reason Penzance Depot is getting an upgrade.

Portsmouth and Devon Metro are a graver overcrowding situation than Cornwall at the moment. Those I'm concerned about as Portsmouth will be directly affected and suffers many two-car substitutions; Devon Metro risks the splitting of 4 car 150s into 2 car formations so that the 3 or 4 Turbos usually on Exmouths can be used elsewhere. As is greatly known, Devon Metro is a busy old route.

So in other words either it’s a load of nonsense or something else is getting cut back to 5 car to provide it.

It's just the 802 maintenance going in house at Laira.

Hitachi have a long term maintenance contract for the 802s so either Hitachi are taking over Laira or the DFT have paid a fortune to end the contract early.

If Hitachi were to take on Laira and then implemented the same policy they have elsewhere of not allowing any non-Hitachi stock to use the site then the Cornish branches will suffer too, as will XC.

There is no plan for any replacement of the 16 HSTs on a like-for-like basis unfortunately, so I sadly doubt thete will be any external DMU cascades from other TOCs.

Theres enough time for that (and the government) to change.

 

[D6130]

Is this all part of the DfT's cost reduction plans?

 

[XCTurbostar]

What a waste of money the Castle Class Upgrade was then..

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Oh right, I think that's simply rearranging diagrams so that most Paddington-Plymouth trains which extend to Penzance become 9-car instead of two 5s splitting off a set.

Exactly, meaning Plymouth - Penzance receive 9 carriage trains instead of 5 carriage trains (that were 10 before Plymouth), which is an increase of four 26m carriages. That offsets the loss of another train which has four 23m carriages - and is often a 2/3 carriage 158 also.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That pointless daily Axminster train can always go back to SWR anyway,

It’s not pointless, it’s GWR’s Exeter depot route refresh turn over the Honiton route which is why it has the convoluted ECS routing back to Exeter Depot.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s not pointless, it’s GWR’s Exeter depot route refresh turn over the Honiton route which is why it has the convoluted ECS routing back to Exeter Depot.

They managed before May. I don't see why it can't run using a SWR 159 anyway. They've got plenty spare at the moment.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What a waste of money the Castle Class Upgrade was then..

Recessions traditionally see off older rolling stock, here is no exception. Just because money has previously been spent doesn’t mean further money will be forthcoming.

@Bald Rick has hinged before at the serious budget savings required on the railways from the next financial year.

They managed before May. I don't see why it can't run using a SWR 159 anyway. They've got plenty spare at the moment.

They struggled to maintain competency before May. The need for an actual GWR route refresh turn was highlighted the last time there were GWR diversions via Honiton and traincrew challenges and this service was the solution that was proposed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What a waste of money the Castle Class Upgrade was then..

You say that, but fitting cheap (compared to the Chiltern plug ones) and fitting the even cheaper, crappy TrainFX system was hardly an upgrade. A number of GWR Mark 3s were already in GWR green since 2015-2016, and for those that were only fitted with the green interior in 2018/2019, they've still had around five years of use.

Virgin Trains East Coast began implementing "Plush tush" on the outgoing HSTs and IC225s only three years prior to the planned 2018 introduction of the Azumas - in fact, they hadn't even finished the MK4s until early 2017! Had the replacement programme followed schedule the refurbishment would have only lasted three years or so. A key difference here is that GWR did up the HSTs with plans for them to remain permanently. Their cost, their age, their safety review following a fatal collision under a different TOC, the recession and loss of passengers following the pandemic and other factors have caused the circumstances to change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say that, but fitting cheap (compared to the Chiltern plug ones) and fitting the even cheaper, crappy TrainFX system was hardly an upgrade.

I have been on them and thought them quite tatty and unkempt - definitely a bare minimum thing. Not really better than a 158 or Turbo if the latter was changed to 2+2.

 

[Ashley Hill]

o the plan is to use cl802s released from the post covid changes to IET services to go onto Cardiff to Penzance workings vice 2+4 HSTs.

Is there not a disagreement at the moment about conductors working IETs?

What a waste of money the Castle Class Upgrade was then..

There will be an awful lot of nameplates for sale too!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I have been on them and thought them quite tatty and unkempt - definitely a bare minimum thing. Not really better than a 158 or Turbo if the latter was changed to 2+2.

If "them" is the Castle HSTs, then I quite agree. Give me a 158 any day. As a Cardiff resident I'll certainly appreciate taking an IET to Bristol or beyond instead. They're exceptionally lucky to have lasted as long as they have. 1976 - 2023 (would be 2024 if they lasted a month longer) is not bad at all.

There will be an awful lot of nameplates for sale too!

I hardly think that's a major concern in the grand scheme of things.

 

[fgwrich]

I have been on them and thought them quite tatty and unkempt - definitely a bare minimum thing. Not really better than a 158 or Turbo if the latter was changed to 2+2.

The only, and I mean from looking at these plans so far only, good thing which could come from the retirement of the HSTs could be the freeing up of a load of decent Grammer seats which could be used to make either the 158 or 16X fleet semi decent inside. But, given the opportunities to re-use those seats so far have been continually missed, I don’t hold out much hope.