Trivia: Largest settlement in Great Britain which has never had an Intercity rail service

[CunningPlan]

Can I suggest Eastbourne? The urban area is much larger than Eastbourne Borough (population 103,000) and unless you count the (relatively recent) occasional extra journeys on Gatwick Express (never a BR/InterCity branded thing) I don't believe it has ever had IC service...

 

[daodao]

Can I suggest Eastbourne? The urban area is much larger than Eastbourne Borough (population 103,000) and unless you count the (relatively recent) occasional extra journeys on Gatwick Express (never a BR/InterCity branded thing) I don't believe it has ever had IC service...

Table 10 of the BR LMR timetable for summer 1965, available at Timetable World, shows a Saturday train from Wolverhampton Low Level and Birmingham Snow Hill to Brighton and Eastbourne.

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

 

[Peterthegreat]

If the UK railway industry had a sudden rush of blood to the head and decided to give Birkenhead the service it deserves, it would electrify the route from Crewe via Chester and send London-bound inter-city trains to Euston. Paddington wouldn't get a moment's thought.

Has Barnsley with its population in excess of 100,000 ever had a proper inter-city service?

For a number of years Barnsley had a through HST to/from St Pancras. Basically an ECS move from Neville Hill utilised to provide the service.

 

[Millisle]

True....but were they branded 'InterCity' prior to January 1970?

Fair point. Highly improbable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Has Barnsley with its population in excess of 100,000 ever had a proper inter-city service?

It had a few extended Midland Mainline Sheffield semi-fasts in the early years of privatisation, though some will rule those out for the arbitrary reason that they were run with class 170s and not "proper" InterCity stock.

 

[Peterthegreat]

It had a few extended Midland Mainline Sheffield semi-fasts in the early years of privatisation, though some will rule those out for the arbitrary reason that they were run with class 170s and not "proper" InterCity stock.

It also had HSTs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It also had HSTs.

I know- my post was meant as an addition to yours, not a refutation of it. When did the HST services end? I know that privatisation-era services to Leeds didn't run via Barnsley (or if diverted that way they didn't call there).

 

[Peterthegreat]

I know- my post was meant as an addition to yours, not a refutation of it. When did the HST services end? I know that privatisation-era services to Leeds didn't run via Barnsley (or if diverted that way they didn't call there).

Good question. I will need to do some research. It may have been one of the trains to go in the immediate run up to privatisation.

 

[Barnsley]

Good question. I will need to do some research. It may have been one of the trains to go in the immediate run up to privatisation.

The HSTs ended after the Summer 1989 Timetable, then we got the Midland Mainline service with the New Class 170s, one down in the Morning via Derby, one in the Afternoon via Nottingham, then we briefly had the new 222 units before East Midlands Trains withdrew the service (it was poorly used as it took 3.5 hours and stopped everywhere, anyone from Barnsley travelling to London goes from Doncaster)

 

[urbophile]

Southport, Blackburn, Bolton, Burnley and Colne (for example) once had daily through carriages to Euston, attached/detached from conventional expresses at places like Stockport and Edge Hill (I think it was, rather than Lime St).

I think in the 1950s, maybe even until the 60s when the line closed, these through carriages at least once a day ran through from Skipton.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Changing at Royston was only for 10 years 1978 to 1988.

After Royston-Cambridge electrification was completed in 1988 Kings Cross quickly became the main route to/from Cambridge.

I changed at Royston on occasions in the early '70s (pre-1978). But the general point, yes, post-1988 or so KX took over being the main route.

 

[The exile]

There was a Sunday morning IC ex Glasgow that ran via the S&C and called at Blackburn.

Not forgetting the Rose Grove - Paignton which presumably called.

Can I suggest Eastbourne? The urban area is much larger than Eastbourne Borough (population 103,000) and unless you count the (relatively recent) occasional extra journeys on Gatwick Express (never a BR/InterCity branded thing) I don't believe it has ever had IC service...

Was there not briefly a Summer Saturday cross country service in the early 90s ? Sure I have the window sticker somewhere….

 

[WizCastro197]

Basildon seems pretty large (107,000) yet I don’t think it has had an intercity service? I am not completely sure.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Not forgetting the Rose Grove - Paignton which presumably called.


Was there not briefly a Summer Saturday cross country service in the early 90s ? Sure I have the window sticker somewhere….

Yes. The XC service to Brighton ran to/from Eastbourne on certain days

 

[jfollows]

Yes. The XC service to Brighton ran to/from Eastbourne on certain days

For example, summer Saturdays in 1993.
1O66 07:18 Manchester Piccadilly to Eastbourne
N Until 17 July via Reading and Kensington Olympia
P From 24 July via Reading, Earley & Guildford (West London line closed for electrification etc. for North Pole Depot for the Channel Tunnel trains)
(was a Brighton service SX)

 

[Magdalia]

I changed at Royston on occasions in the early '70s (pre-1978). But the general point, yes, post-1988 or so KX took over being the main route.

Prior to electrification in 1978 almost all GN trains from/to Cambridge were through services to/from Kings Cross: the Buffet Expresses and various slower trains that were a mixture of loco hauled and DMUs. Sometimes it was possible to make a quicker journey using slow train on the branch and changing to/from Peterborough line services at Hitchin or Stevenage. The only way that a change at Royston would make any sense would be if, on a down journey, the first train over the branch was a Royston terminator and the passenger preferred to kill time at Royston instead of Kings Cross.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

didnt Alfreton and Mansfield Parkway have some Intercity calls

Yes - but it isn't in Mansfield

Has Southport ever had an InterCity service per the above definition? I have as a kid seen sets of Mk2 coaches in "Trans-Pennine Express" branding, probably for the Manchester club train, but was this really regional?

Not sure if it counts for this particular question, but Southport had through carriages to Euston until electrification of the WCML; I think they were detached at Edge Hill.

After the through service stopped, there was a connecting DMU service between Lime Street and Southport for a while, but I don't think it lasted for long

Note the original question uses the word "settlement"

Although here was a station called Alfreton & Mansfield Parkway, it wasn't in either Mansfield itself or even the Mansfield Urban Area; the latter includes Sutton in Ashfield and Kirkby in Ashfield as well as Mansfield, and as anybody who has driven through the area will know, it's only a sign at the side of the road which tells you when you've passed from one to the other. According to Wikipedia, at the 2011 census the Mansfield Urban Area had a population of just under 172,000 and so must be amongst the largest settlements never served by InterCity services, although in times past it did have some summer Saturday services to various East Coast destinations.

Regarding Northampton, for a while in the 1970s it was served by the Euston - Glasgow sleeper which went through the East Midlands, and then over the Settle & Carlisle and G&SW; it was electrically hauled between Euston and Northampton and diesel thereafter, joining the MML at Market Harborough

 

[sk688]

AFAIK Harlow could be a good contender for this

Newcastle-Under-Lyme when it was open ?

Also a usual answer of Kingswood , South Glos

 

[daodao]

Newcastle-Under-Lyme when it was open ?

Newcastle-Under-Lyme is not officially part of the 6 towns (the city of Stoke-on-Trent), but is effectively part of the North Staffordshire urban conurbation and its centre is only 2.2 miles from Stoke station. It is not really a separate "settlement".

 

[BeijingDave]

Not forgetting the Rose Grove - Paignton which presumably called.


Was there not briefly a Summer Saturday cross country service in the early 90s ? Sure I have the window sticker somewhere….

I'm pretty sure the Rose Grove-Paignton did call. Was it really 'Intercity' or a holidaymaker special? I can't really remember how it was officially branded but I do seem to remember it being a mish-mash of Intercity and BR blue Mark 2s the couple of times I saw it.

Widnes (population 61,000) has never had a proper branded Intercity service that I can recall, although one could argue that the Liverpool-Norwich (via Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham) that have called at various times were intercity services.

 

[Howardh]

Newcastle-Under-Lyme is not officially part of the 6 towns (the city of Stoke-on-Trent), but is effectively part of the North Staffordshire urban conurbation and its centre is only 2.2 miles from Stoke station. It is not really a separate "settlement".

I learn something every day!!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

For a number of years Barnsley had a through HST to/from St Pancras. Basically an ECS move from Neville Hill utilised to provide the service.

It had a few extended Midland Mainline Sheffield semi-fasts in the early years of privatisation, though some will rule those out for the arbitrary reason that they were run with class 170s and not "proper" InterCity stock.

Thank you. Was there a noticeable increase in patronage from Barnsley during that period? (I'm always intrigued and irritated by the way large towns like Barnsley, Mansfield, Burnley and Lincoln seem to be regarded as totally inconsequential by the U.K railway system)

 

[Peterthegreat]

Thank you. Was there a noticeable increase in patronage from Barnsley during that period? (I'm always intrigued and irritated by the way large towns like Barnsley, Mansfield, Burnley and Lincoln seem to be regarded as totally inconsequential by the U.K railway system)

If the increase had been really noticeable I suspect the trains would still be running in some form.

 

[Western Sunset]

If the UK railway industry had a sudden rush of blood to the head and decided to give Birkenhead the service it deserves, it would electrify the route from Crewe via Chester and send London-bound inter-city trains to Euston. Paddington wouldn't get a moment's thought.

Has Barnsley with its population in excess of 100,000 ever had a proper inter-city service?

And back in the day, B'head had through carriages to Euston too.

 

[Dr Hoo]

This map, taken from the 1973-4 London Midland Region timetable shows clearly that even routes such as the Mid Cheshire, Calder Valley, Atherton and Westhoughton to Southport, and Crewe-Stoke-Derby were regarded as Inter City way back then.

Another map - this time the ‘pull out’ one from most regional timetables in 1968-9 - shows that on a national basis routes like the London Tilbury and Southend, Southend Victoria, Walton-on-Naze, Maidstone East, the Coastway, Dorking-Horsham and so on we’re also marketed as Inter City.

 

[BeijingDave]

This map, taken from the 1973-4 London Midland Region timetable shows clearly that even routes such as the Mid Cheshire, Calder Valley, Atherton and Westhoughton to Southport, and Crewe-Stoke-Derby were regarded as Inter City way back then.

Another map - this time the ‘pull out’ one from most regional timetables in 1968-9 - shows that on a national basis routes like the London Tilbury and Southend, Southend Victoria, Walton-on-Naze, Maidstone East, the Coastway, Dorking-Horsham and so on we’re also marketed as Inter City.

The trunk routes on those maps were not intercity routes as I recall, they were just 'major' or busy routes. Mid-Cheshire has always been an important route, linking Liverpool and Manchester via two large industrial towns (Widnes and Warrington). But it has never really had a proper Intercity service. Even the 'fasts' have often been held up by the frequent stopping services.

 

[tbtc]

This map, taken from the 1973-4 London Midland Region timetable shows clearly that even routes such as the Mid Cheshire, Calder Valley, Atherton and Westhoughton to Southport, and Crewe-Stoke-Derby were regarded as Inter City way back then.

Interesting map, especially as a decade later BR had downgraded the even the Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Durham - Newcastle trains off the Inter City map

Cardiff trains are via Birmingham, no service to Oxford/ Reading/ Bournemouth (or, if there was, it wasn’t Intercity), nothing east of Sheffield/ Nottingham, but Leicester did have direct services back then (and Southport/ Mid-Cheshire were important enough to be InterCity

(I'm always intrigued and irritated by the way large towns like Barnsley, Mansfield, Burnley and Lincoln seem to be regarded as totally inconsequential by the U.K railway system)

Often just accidents of geography

The ECML happens to go through Retford rather than Lincoln, Great Heck rather than Knottingley, Chester le Street rather than Sunderland, Alnmouth rather than Alnwick

The WCML happens to avoid Northampton and then go through Lichfield rather than Walsall, Preston rather than Blackburn, Oxenholme rather than Kendall, Carstairs rather than Lanark

So we have some “big” places that aren’t served as well as locals would like because the routes chosen in the nineteenth century avoided them, and it’d be horribly expensive to try to “rectify” this today (as more of the country has been built on over the past 150 years/ land prices have gone up significantly, so the logistics and cost of building new lives through the heart of somewhere like Bradford are a lot tougher)

However, whilst I can understand why a station on a “branch” is hard for longer distance trains to serve (and Mansfield being on a line that British Rail closed), the fact that the Neville Hill HSTs to St Pancras went via Westgate (and even some via Doncaster) seems strange when Barnsley or even Rotherham could have been served (unless platform lengths were an issue?)

these were essentially no placing journeys/ dead mileage until they got to Sheffield in the morning (and after they left Sheffield in the evening), so even if going via Barnsley took a lot longer it’d be more beneficial than giving Westgate/ Donny yet another London train (albeit one that’s her overtaken by King’s Cross services)

I’m not saying that Barnsley would contribute hundreds of passengers a day*, but I’m sure you’d get more Barnsley passengers than you would going via Westgate/ Doncaster

(*- after all, why would anyone want to leave Barnsley?)

 

[Dr Hoo]

The trunk routes on those maps were not intercity routes as I recall, they were just 'major' or busy routes. Mid-Cheshire has always been an important route, linking Liverpool and Manchester via two large industrial towns (Widnes and Warrington). But it has never really had a proper Intercity service. Even the 'fasts' have often been held up by the frequent stopping services.

Whilst I don’t fundamentally disagree with your comment that changing the livery on some shabby diesel units from all-blue to blue and grey (like the Flying Scotsman or whatever) didn’t turn them into a ‘proper’ express, the fact remains that the maps clearly described the routes as “Inter City” rather than “Principal Routes”, etc.

 

[BeijingDave]

Whilst I don’t fundamentally disagree with your comment that changing the livery on some shabby diesel units from all-blue to blue and grey (like the Flying Scotsman or whatever) didn’t turn them into a ‘proper’ express, the fact remains that the maps clearly described the routes as “Inter City” rather than “Principal Routes”, etc.

Fair point.

 

[urbophile]

The trunk routes on those maps were not intercity routes as I recall, they were just 'major' or busy routes. Mid-Cheshire has always been an important route, linking Liverpool and Manchester via two large industrial towns (Widnes and Warrington). But it has never really had a proper Intercity service. Even the 'fasts' have often been held up by the frequent stopping services.

'Frequent'? If you mean the CLC line, has it ever seen more than two stopping trains an hour? Manchester end, even less.