GwR HSTs to be stood down

[Starmill]

DfT Resource Departmental Expenditure Limit for 23/24 remains £2bn above pre-covid to fund the rail ‘revenue gap’. However, as expected, DfT remains focussed on cutting rather than fares reform to grow revenue for 24/25 onwards.

Reform is necessary for all sorts of reasons, but there's no reason to believe that it will make the railway more commercially competitive unfortunately. The Department are aware that overall demand is not showing signs of growth from the current plateau. I don't think anyone seriously expected there to be no meaningful cost savings?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

What a waste of money the Castle Class Upgrade was then..

They were never a permanent solution.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Hourly 9 and 10-car services through Cornwall I don't really thinks a good idea especially if one of them ends up being a 5-car short form.

Keep things as they are but with 5-car IET's replacing the Castle HST's (unless a few 158's from Penzance will terminate at Plymouth and start from Plymouth instead of running North of Plymouth).

 

[Xavi]

Reform is necessary for all sorts of reasons, but there's no reason to believe that it will make the railway more commercially competitive unfortunately. The Department are aware that overall demand is not showing signs of growth from the current plateau. I don't think anyone seriously expected there to be no meaningful cost savings?

Yes, I should have said solely cost cutting. To not have fares reform now is ridiculous and a missed opportunity to reduce the revenue gap.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hourly 9 and 10-car services through Cornwall I don't really thinks a good idea especially if one of them ends up being a 5-car short form.

You don't want 9 or 10 car services diagrammed for Cornwall... so what, do you want all London Penzance to terminate at Plymouth then?

 

[Deepgreen]

Entering a severe recession with passenger numbers already reduced from C19 was always going to lead to this sort of thing. I don't think we've even seen the bulk of it yet. The 769s might enter service but I doubt it very much, and passenger numbers may well fall further as long-lived strike action starts to turn even more people away. It's a depressing spiral of decline that might well prove to be very, very hard to recover from, as stock and staff are reduced to an extent that will be hard to redress. There is a worrying combination of a significant number of people who will have abandoned public transport altogether as a resut of C19, those who work from home, those turned away from rail by continuing strike uncertainty and an overall drop in travel demand from the recession.

You don't want 9 or 10 car services diagrammed for Cornwall... so what, do you want all London Penzance to terminate at Plymouth then?

Split at Plymouth with 5 going on to Penzance?

They were never a permanent solution.

No, but nowhere near this short-lived. Shades of the 442 debacle here, I feel.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Split at Plymouth with 5 going on to Penzance?

He's just said he thinks it's a bad idea "especially if one of them ends up being a 5-car short form," suggesting he rightfully agrees 5 car is insufficient.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

You don't want 9 or 10 car services diagrammed for Cornwall... so what, do you want all London Penzance to terminate at Plymouth then?

Sorry. I meant we need the Cornish local services too with the London trains and not just the hourly London trains.

Every 20 minutes with 2 9 / 10-car IET's and a 5-car won't be so bad.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Working from home has certainly had it’s effect on the long distance commuting market, which has freed up some units for the South West.

The business case for the 802 units called for split and joins at Plymouth because of the wish to get the Cornish half hourly service in. At that time it was either long trains and no Cornish half hourly or what was eventually done, it always being easier to extend later rather than try and get extra services in later. In this case, time has certainly proved that to be true.

It was always hoped that demand would lead to longer trains down to Penzance (and that is why re-instating Ponsandane sidings is key) and in DA3 FG drew up schemes that would lead to between 10 and 14 802 5 car sets to become 9 car and the remaining 5 cars would have been transferred to the Cardiff-Penzance run. The DfT made it clear that they “didn’t require that option to be presented” to them.

Now it is clear that the hugely lucrative traffic west of Didcot isn’t coming back, at least for a number of years, we can get 9 and 10 car working down to Penzance and do away with regular split and joins at Plymouth. Ponsandane will lead to Penzance being able to stable more long sets, taking away the pressure on Laira.

The use of the 802 sets on the Cardiff-Penzance corridor, hopefully supplemented by 158 units (freed up by Turbos) will lead to the end of the HST sets but they haven’t been a total waste of money. They were intended to be a stopgap and they have done (and are still doing) their job very well, if a little expensively.

This will also allow Laira to do more work on the 802 sets. They are already doing a lot of the 36 day exams on them and getting rid of the HST sets will allow them to do a bit more work on this fleet, which tends to revolve around LA anyway.

 

[CptCharlee]

Makes me angry knowing GWR were saying we need to lengthen the 5 cars to 9, and the DfT weren't having any of it.
I do despise the micromanagement from the Department. The 5 car situation stems from that originally anyways.

I really hope they see sense of this issue and see the need for it. 10 car operation was an utter failure of a decision. Its a logistical nightmare.

 

[74A]

I am trying to get my head around why there is a phase out at May, September and December


Am I just being really thick, or does this phase out not make any sense, unless there are plans for alternative trains during the extended summer season into October and for summer 2024.

Those dates are when the timetable changes so that is usually when unit diagrams are changed.

Also as some posters have said there is a need to train more drivers and guards on the stock which will take time.

Finally I think part of this plan is based on getting more IETs available after the cracking issues have been fixed.

 

[Foxcover]

Are the 80x classes basically interchangeable with minor modifications, branding aside? So if eg TPE couldn’t use their full complement for the next few years, could they go to another 80x operator temporarily & augment their fleet? Appreciate this doesn’t solve the splitting logistical problem in this thread, but just wondered if this was possible; apologies if this has been debated before, hadn’t seen it if so!

 

[stj]

Entering a severe recession with passenger numbers already reduced from C19 was always going to lead to this sort of thing. I don't think we've even seen the bulk of it yet. The 769s might enter service but I doubt it very much, and passenger numbers may well fall further as long-lived strike action starts to turn even more people away. It's a depressing spiral of decline that might well prove to be very, very hard to recover from, as stock and staff are reduced to an extent that will be hard to redress. There is a worrying combination of a significant number of people who will have abandoned public transport altogether as a resut of C19, those who work from home, those turned away from rail by continuing strike uncertainty and an overall drop in travel demand from the recession.


Split at Plymouth with 5 going on to Penzance?


No, but nowhere near this short-lived. Shades of the 442 debacle here, I feel.

Plus the Fare cost.Despite the high cost of Fuel its still cheaper for me to drive than use the Train.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Those dates are when the timetable changes so that is usually when unit diagrams are changed.

Also as some posters have said there is a need to train more drivers and guards on the stock which will take time.

Finally I think part of this plan is based on getting more IETs available after the cracking issues have been fixed.

No, it isn’t. The crack repairs on the GWR fleet will be going on for years.

 

[Christmas]

I wonder if ScotRail will be able to get hold of some of the best coaches from GWR to oust their most troublesome.

 

[fgwrich]

No, it isn’t. The crack repairs on the GWR fleet will be going on for years.

Indeed, Hitachi should be staying in Eastleigh Works well into the late 2020s!

 

[Techniquest]

Indeed, Hitachi should be staying in Eastleigh Works well into the late 2020s!

There's seriously that many 80x to fix? Good gravy!

As for the GTi HSTs, it really will be a shame to see them go. The end of the class that got me onto the scene in the first place, it will be a sad day. It's not the same these days, granted. I'll certainly be making a few more trips to the South West in the coming months by the looks of it!

 

[Class172]

There's seriously that many 80x to fix? Good gravy!

As for the GTi HSTs, it really will be a shame to see them go. The end of the class that got me onto the scene in the first place, it will be a sad day. It's not the same these days, granted. I'll certainly be making a few more trips to the South West in the coming months by the looks of it!

My understanding was that the whole fleet will undergo the bodywork fixes. In order to retain a fleet availability high enough to run a normal timetable this necessitates that the work is spread over a long amount of time.

 

[MacT]

I am trying to get my head around why there is a phase out at May, September and December 2023.

With the recent addition of 2+4 stop markers at Dorchester West, and September being typically the end of the school holidays, could this be a hint towards plans to operate Castles to Weymouth during the summer, and withdraw them shortly after. Maybe a return of the ‘Weymouth Wizard’

 

[haggishunter]

I wonder if ScotRail will be able to get hold of some of the best coaches from GWR to oust their most troublesome.

Hopefully more than a few coaches, but a few more units to strengthen the I7C fleet, so there are fewer or better still no f’ing turbostars on long distance routes!

Actually, I’ll post in the ScotRail HST thread before I get the mods excited about being off topic!

 

[bramling]

I am trying to get my head around why there is a phase out at May, September and December 2023.

Presumably May because timetables change and spare IETs can switch in on some workings (but if spare why can’t it be earlier than May). September makes no sense unless the thinking is trains are less busy after high summer season (tourist season continues into October in South West), then why do remainder magically get replacements in December that won’t lead to overcrowding in summer 2024

Am I just being really thick, or does this phase out not make any sense, unless there are plans for alternative trains during the extended summer season into October and for summer 2024.

Is everyone who currently drives the HSTs trained on the IETs?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is everyone who currently drives the HSTs trained on the IETs?

No it’s a minority who drives HSTs and are also trained on IETs. Big changes for conductors / train managers too.

There’s a lot of staff to train, hence the phased replacement.

 

[Clarence Yard]

My understanding was that the whole fleet will undergo the bodywork fixes. In order to retain a fleet availability high enough to run a normal timetable this necessitates that the work is spread over a long amount of time.

Every single 80x that has been built will require the fix as all the bolsters will crack in time. It also takes a few weeks to do each set.

 

[Snow1964]

No it’s a minority who drives HSTs and are also trained on IETs. Big changes for conductors / train managers too.

There’s a lot of staff to train, hence the phased replacement.

Surely not that much of a change for train managers and conductors, both are power doored, yes a few control buttons and equipment cases in different places including isolating switches, but not like they need to learn how to open internal cabinets and repair it on the move.

Its not like train managers actually sort out problematic electronic reservation displays etc, often will put a train in service with it in can’t be bothered mode.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely not that much of a change for train managers and conductors, both are power doored, yes a few control buttons and equipment cases in different places including isolating switches, but not like they need to learn how to open internal cabinets and repair it on the move.

Er, yes, guards do do that!

 

[LowLevel]

Surely not that much of a change for train managers and conductors, both are power doored, yes a few control buttons and equipment cases in different places including isolating switches, but not like they need to learn how to open internal cabinets and repair it on the move.

Its not like train managers actually sort out problematic electronic reservation displays etc, often will put a train in service with it in can’t be bothered mode.

Of course the guard needs to know how to operate the train. For a start an 80x has a train management system which is a definite change from anything else the local side conductors will operate.

A HST and an 80x are very different beasts regardless of them both having power doors.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I understand that once the current Castle driver training course has finished,no more drivers will be trained.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I understand that once the current Castle driver training course has finished,no more drivers will be trained.

Lets hope the lucky souls actually get a chance to drive them or perhaps they should stop the course and reset it to an IET one.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Lets hope the lucky souls actually get a chance to drive them or perhaps they should stop the course and reset it to an IET one.

They were over halfway through when the Castle withdrawals were announced. They have a year left before total withdrawal so there will be plenty of time to get the handle back.

 

[tricky18jan]

Where is the best place to catch as many as possible in a day ?

I am due to head down Bristol way in February, might extend my stay another day and either spend the day at Temple Meads and surrounding area or head further South

Any help or guidance appreciated