GwR HSTs to be stood down

[Trainbike46]

If I were being really speculative I'd suggest Scotrail nabbed the carriages and lengthened their sets seeing as they seem keen to keep the bleeding things on until the mid 2030s, but I don't see it happening.

That is at least in part because ScotGov has guaranteed a lease for them until I think 2030ish, so very little money to be saved by retiring them before then

 

[hexagon789]

Is that because they plan for the 769s to enter service between those two points?

Appears to be, yes.

Will Laira continue maintaining the XC HSTs? Or will those get withdrawn too?

Latest I saw still reported XC were fully intending to increase diagrams in May, that was only a couple days ago as well.

I really hope that isn't true, but that some extra stock comes in to fill the

I hope so too, but I've since seen it reported as fact by yet another member of GWR staff on a different forum to last night. So either the rumour mill has gone into overdrive or it is indeed true.

This latest version reported that the HSTs would be withdrawn by the end of 2023, Cardiff-Plymouth through trains were to be axed and the half-hourly Cornwall service cut.

Usually when these things are rumours, they get garbled like Chinese whispers, this time every version I've seen is so precisely the same.

 

[JonathanH]

Will Laira continue maintaining the XC HSTs? Or will those get withdrawn too?

At least some informed speculation that they might get chopped too. They are after all, subject to exactly the same issues regarding maintenance costs and engine overhauls as the GWR fleet.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...nstead-of-voyagers.238652/page-2#post-5905353

I suspect the relevant question on all HST power cars, including those with Scotrail, is the number of miles left until significant overhauls are required on the engines and other components. How long are the XC power cars away from significant expenditure being needed?

 

[irish_rail]

I know this Government would be highly unlikely to win the next election anyway, but its almost as if they have given up. As others have alluded, this plan is extremely poor for the entire greater south west, from Cardiff and Gloucester in the North to Portsmouth, Plymouth and Cornwall in the south. Thats alot of people they are quite arrogantly happy to upset. They've obviously calculated the best hope of clinging to power in 2024 is to look after the Northern cities and attempt to keep the red wall. Political suicide for Sunak and his chums I reckon.

 

[JonathanH]

The number of people in the GWR region for which the retention of HSTs is an electoral issue will barely register at the ballot box. (That is not to say that the current politicians won't suffer considerable reductions in voters but the train service isn't going to be the reason why.)

 

[43096]

I know this Government would be highly unlikely to win the next election anyway, but its almost as if they have given up. As others have alluded, this plan is extremely poor for the entire greater south west, from Cardiff and Gloucester in the North to Portsmouth, Plymouth and Cornwall in the south. Thats alot of people they are quite arrogantly happy to upset. They've obviously calculated the best hope of clinging to power in 2024 is to look after the Northern cities and attempt to keep the red wall. Political suicide for Sunak and his chums I reckon.

Rail service changes are pretty insignificant when it comes to voting intentions in a general election. The economy and the NHS are far bigger factors.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I know this Government would be highly unlikely to win the next election anyway, but its almost as if they have given up.

The government in power is largely irrelevant, none of them are going to have a magic money tree to give the railways more money.

 

[DanNCL]

The government in power is largely irrelevant, none of them are going to have a magic money tree to give the railways more money.

You’d be amazed at what they’re suddenly capable of doing when it’s politically convenient…

Labour have an opportunity to make a huge song and dance about the rail network in their next general election campaign, and from what I’ve heard from people working behind the scenes on Labour’s next general election campaign they’re planning to do exactly that.

 

[83G/84D]

As I understand it so far from various GWR staff:- (ammended)

1 2+4 HST set retired - GW01?
3 or 4 more going by December timetable change leaving 8 sets in traffic.
387 fleet to be reduced by 4 with 3 sets transferring to Govia Thameslink.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You’d be amazed at what they’re suddenly capable of doing when it’s politically convenient…

Labour have an opportunity to make a huge song and dance about the rail network in their next general election campaign, and from what I’ve heard from people working behind the scenes on Labour’s next general election campaign they’re planning to do exactly that.

Labour said that last time, made a big song and dance in their 1997 election pledges about the railway and renationalising it, then did absolutely nothing to enact it in the following 13 years in power.

Maybe why some of us older folk are sceptical this time will be any different to the broken promises last time!

 

[hexagon789]

As I understand it so far from various GWR staff:-

1 2+4 HST set retired - GW01?
4 more going by December timetable change.
387 fleet to be reduced by 4 with sets transferring to Govia Thameslink.

Yep, ties in with what I've seen mentioned in a few places and by a few different people. Though 3 rather than 4 387s

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As I understand it so far from various GWR staff:-

1 2+4 HST set retired - GW01?
4 more going by December timetable change.
387 fleet to be reduced by 4 with sets transferring to Govia Thameslink.

It’s been mentioned elsewhere 30 units will be the magic number for GWR 387s. Down from 33.

 

[JonathanH]

387 fleet to be reduced by 4 with sets transferring to Govia Thameslink.

Isn't it 3, not 4?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Isn't it 3, not 4?

All the tenders have been about 30 units which is 3 less.

 

[83G/84D]

Isn't it 3, not 4?

I have altered my original post to clarify a few things.

 

[JonathanH]

I have altered my original post to clarify a few things.

Reduced by 4 with 3 going to GTR? Where is the other one going?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Reduced by 4 with 3 going to GTR? Where is the other one going?

It’s staying with GWR!

 

[83G/84D]

Reduced by 4 with 3 going to GTR? Where is the other one going?

No idea, the information I had quoted only three transferring.

 

[embers25]

It's fun when GWR run 10 to Penzance (which happens rarely luckily) as the back five fit in almost no station and so you become marooned. Even the 9's are a nightmare as they don't fit in hardly any (1 I think) stations with all coaches. The Cardiff-Exeter trains seem weel loads between Exeter and Bristol and help relieve the overcrowding on XC.

 

[Xavi]

It is correct apparently.

Slightly over half the sets will be withdrawn in May 2023, the balance in December.

At the same time Laira is to take over full maintenance responsibility for the 802s.

Cardiff to Plymouth/Penzance gets split at Taunton/Plymouth. Portsmouth down to 3-cars to free up stock for the former section. Cornwall then goes back to hourly and the IETs make extra calls.

That appears to be the plan.

Been reported on two other forums and apparently was mentioned in a GWR fleet meeting today.

What happens to the timetable is speculation, only the withdrawal of HSTs has been announced. That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if DafT has ideas like those suggested.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==

Thinking about it, I would assume this would eliminate the plans (which already started coming to fruition with the S.I. Bay Line closing for the works) to run five carriage trains to St. Ives, as spare stock will be needed on the mainline now. I wouldn't be surprised to see Okehampton reduced to two-hourly either, not that that would necessarily be the end of the world. That pointless daily Axminster train can always go back to SWR anyway, who can't be bothered to run 2tph north of London and have dramatically reduced Yeovil extensions.

No chance of the flagship (DfT) Okehampton reopening going two-hourly. Usage is comfortably beating all expectations (no reference to easy targets please).

 

[Jim]

Was the announcement the HST fleet retiring - or Laira losing the HST work?

Various depots have been taken over by HRE before and still done work on other fleets too for a time as well?

Remember Long Rock used to do A/B/C/MTU exams on Power Cars and I believe do heavy coaching stock exams, plus SPM with more staffing could probably manage HST A and B exams - so will it be maintenance moving or a fleet finishing?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Was the announcement the HST fleet retiring - or Laira losing the HST work?

Remember Long Rock used to do A/B/C/MTU exams on Power Cars and I believe do heavy coaching stock exams, plus SPM with more staffing could probably manage HST A and B exams - so will it be maintenance moving or a fleet finishing?

The HST fleet is finishing.

 

[Xavi]

The government in power is largely irrelevant, none of them are going to have a magic money tree to give the railways more money.

DfT Resource Departmental Expenditure Limit for 23/24 remains £2bn above pre-covid to fund the rail ‘revenue gap’. However, as expected, DfT remains focussed on cutting rather than fares reform to grow revenue for 24/25 onwards.

 

[TomG]

Ah great, a perfect plan all round!

So Cardiff - Portsmouth returns to being overcrowded (potential flashbacks to the memories of the overcrowding problems of 2007?), Cornwall returns to an hourly service pattern despite all the work put into the Half Hourly timetable and the already fairly slow Intercity services to London end up finding themselves slowed down further to pick up the slack. First Kernow / Transport for Cornwall start taking notes now!

I've felt for a long time GWR has overstretched itself (the haste to see off the 143s and 153s for example, chasing to rely on stretching the 150 / 158 / HST Fleets further), reliance on 769s releasing Turbo's to fix the West Fleet issues etc. But this seems to be service cutbacks by cutting the fleet. All very disappointing.

What do you expect. Great Western Railway is operated by First Group (despite not having 'First' in their title any more). And everyone knows how good First Group are when it comes to operating Train Franchises (or not operating as the case may be!)

 

[Trainbike46]

DfT Resource Departmental Expenditure Limit for 23/24 remains £2bn above pre-covid to fund the rail ‘revenue gap’. However, as expected, DfT remains focussed on cutting rather than fares reform to grow revenue for 24/25 onwards.

this reply may be better placed in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/realities-of-railway-recovery-after-2024.239817/

 

[DanNCL]

Was the announcement the HST fleet retiring - or Laira losing the HST work?

Various depots have been taken over by HRE before and still done work on other fleets too for a time as well?

Remember Long Rock used to do A/B/C/MTU exams on Power Cars and I believe do heavy coaching stock exams, plus SPM with more staffing could probably manage HST A and B exams - so will it be maintenance moving or a fleet finishing?

Hitachi don’t do anything other than stabling and standard overnight maintenance on non-Hitachi fleets, and even then only at two of their depots (Craigentinny and Ashford). All non-Hitachi fleets based at Hitachi depots have either been reallocated elsewhere (91+Mark 4s and XC HSTs) or withdrawn (LNER HSTs) quite quickly after the depot takeover.

If Hitachi take on Laira we can expect anything non-Hitachi apart from possibly the 08s to be banished from the site for anything other than overnight stabling in a relatively short timeframe.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yawn. There are plenty of people in the UK who consider the HST the best train we have ever produced. The fact that you are not one of them counts for little. Personally I'd much rather ride on an HST than an IET. 48 years old or not. Or are you of the opinion that 'old' is automatically outdated, rubbish and not fit for purpose?

A lot of it is down to personal preference. However, a mark 3 is measurably quieter inside than a class 158 or 166; not sure how it compares with an IET on diesel. A mark 3 is usually measurably cooler than a 158/166 on a hot day.

To use another example, plenty of people commented favourably on class 317s seats versus class 720. Most people just want the train to run on time and all on board facilities to work correctly.

On my last trip to Paddington, two people across the aisle were unimpressed that most of the toilets on the IET were not working. This was on the first trip of the day for the unit in question. In the one working toilet, the lady could not get the tap to work. I explained that you have to hold your hand to the side of the nozzle to get the tap to switch on. They were not impressed and did not think that the fare was good value for money. Plenty of modern trains have niggly little faults that could have been designed better.

 

[RailWonderer]

Yawn. There are plenty of people in the UK who consider the HST the best train we have ever produced. The fact that you are not one of them counts for little. Personally I'd much rather ride on an HST than an IET. 48 years old or not. Or are you of the opinion that 'old' is automatically outdated, rubbish and not fit for purpose?

You can ride an IET but you cannot 'ride' an HST, you can only be hauled by the 43 and ride in an outdated poorly specced mk3 GWR coach. A nice refurbished mk3 (Chiltern) or even an LNER mk4, or a TPE mk5 is far more enjoyable to ride in despite a class 68 and 91 hauling those and neither being as historic as the 43 HST. Pedantic I know.

 

[12LDA28C]

You can ride an IET but you cannot 'ride' an HST, you can only be hauled by the 43 and ride in an outdated poorly specced mk3 GWR coach. A nice refurbished mk3 (Chiltern) or even an LNER mk4, or a TPE mk5 is far more enjoyable to ride in despite a class 68 and 91 hauling those and neither being as historic as the 43 HST. Pedantic I know.

..and 'propelled' by the rear power car surely, if pedantry is your thing? (I refuse to call them '43s'.)

I don't believe Chiltern Mk3s, LNER Mk4s or TPE Mk5s are planned to be used in Cornwall any time soon, so the comparison is irrelevant.

 

[Xavi]

It why

this reply may be better placed in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/realities-of-railway-recovery-after-2024.239817/

Read it in the context of the ‘magic money tree’ comments in this thread - DfT does not need to plug the ‘gap’ in 23/24 yet is choosing to make cuts anyway.