Class 230 stock to run fast charge batteries on GWR's Greenford West Ealing route late 2022

[Recessio]

Yes - the charging rail dimensions are identical to that found on LUL track.

Has there ever been any consideration of electrification and making the line a branch of the Central? Is there any major blockers of this?

[Apologies if this is too off-topic, can make a new thread if needed].

 

[D365]

Has there ever been any consideration of electrification and making the line a branch of the Central? Is there any major blockers of this?

[Apologies if this is too off-topic, can make a new thread if needed].

I’m sure there was a speculative discussion recently… but the simple answer is that it wouldn’t make sense.

 

[Invincible]

Yes - the charging rail dimensions are identical to that found on LUL track.

From the 769 thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mation-discussion.174866/page-70#post-5860695
If the fast charging equipment has been installed at Bletchley for test before moving to Ealing, will it just be a short section of 3rd rail used to fast charge the train when in the station?.

 

[swt_passenger]

Has there ever been any consideration of electrification and making the line a branch of the Central? Is there any major blockers of this?

[Apologies if this is too off-topic, can make a new thread if needed].

Never anything formally proposed by LU or NR, I suspect. But it was already discussed in this thread, around post #16, with reasons why not in the replies.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2022 ==

From the 769 thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mation-discussion.174866/page-70#post-5860695
If the fast charging equipment has been installed at Bletchley for test before moving to Ealing, will it just be a short section of 3rd rail used to fast charge the train when in the station?.

In the earlier closed thread here:

Vivarail chosen for GWR fast charging trial.

Indeed while the original Vivarail idea of powering the D78s with Ford Transit engines seems a bit of a lemon all round this is not quite correct - see @A0wn below for the gen! It's a bit hard to see them when it's been replacement buses for several months, to be fair! :) A fair point - the...

www.railforums.co.uk

…it was stated to be two lengths of paired third rail between the running rails, one system for each battery fitted vehicle, switched on only when there was a unit present. It makes a lot of sense to avoid using the running rails as part of the high current circuit.

I thought I’d add a copy of the description provided by @Woods if people haven’t seen it before:

If I may pick up on a few technical points:

1) The charging rails will be in the four foot. These will basically be lengths of standard conductor rail as used in normal third rail territory. The rails will be earthed when there is no train above them (i.e. not live). Right from when Vivarail first started developing the system over 3 years ago, this modus operandi was agreed with ORR, who despite rumours have in fact been very sensible about this all along. The charging rails will only be energised once a series of Wifi interlocks combined with hard-wired position sensors has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the train is the correct train, has stopped in the right place, and is safe to receive charge.

2) The pickup shoes will be 'top contact' and retractable. They will be deployed just before the train comes to a halt. They will then be retracted before the train departs from the charging station.

3) The charging point will be at West Ealing station, in the bay platform. It will consist of two separate trackside charging containers (with storage batteries and switchgear inside them), each connected with a set of charge rails, one serving each Driving Motor car (where the onboard batteries are). This allows for some redundancy, i.e. if one trackside charger fails, the train could still be charged from the other one. There will not be a charging point at Greenford.

4) It is all Vivarail's design, has nothing to do with Alstom etc.

5) The train for the GWR trial will be 230001, in 3-car formation with a toilet in the middle car. It's the same train as demonstrated by Vivarail at COP26 back in November, with very little mods to the interior layout, except for the reinstatement of a few extra seats. The toilet is basically only there because all trains operated by GWR have to have a toilet regardless of the route they are operating on. However, because of this, it will be ever so slightly too long for some of the platforms therefore the outermost passenger doors will become 'crew only' doors.

6) It is the hope, certainly from Vivarail's perspective, that this system will be rolled out to many more rail routes in the UK and possibly abroad in order to provide 'electrification by other means'. Whether that is with Class 230s is another matter. In principle the technology could be fitted to other types of rolling stock.

 

[D365]

From the 769 thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mation-discussion.174866/page-70#post-5860695
If the fast charging equipment has been installed at Bletchley for test before moving to Ealing, will it just be a short section of 3rd rail used to fast charge the train when in the station?.

A short stretch of third/fourth rail within the station area only.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Has there ever been any consideration of electrification and making the line a branch of the Central? Is there any major blockers of this?

[Apologies if this is too off-topic, can make a new thread if needed].

Most platforms too short for even a half train of 1992 Central Line stock (which can't run in less than 4-car trains), so the branch would need a bespoke unit. Which is what it's about to have anyway. Tube stock can't be used anyway without chaginng platform heights. And if you used main line sized stock it couldn't get to any existing depot on the Central Line

 

[bluegoblin7]

And if you used main line sized stock it couldn't get to any existing depot on the Central Line

Agreed with everything else you've written, but 'surface' stock (to use the LUL parlance) can access Ruislip depot from Greenford. Bear in mind that, until relatively recently, access to/from Ruislip depot to the rest of the Tube network was via North Acton and Ealing Broadway. Gauging is maintained, although it's impractical to top operate surface stock outside anything other than a possession (for various reasons).

 

[Bastew]

With only a few weeks of 2022 left, does anyone know when this trial is due to start?

 

[JonathanH]

With only a few weeks of 2022 left, does anyone know when this trial is due to start?

Some staff training needs to happen first. Introduction in 2022 seems unlikely.

 

[stan68]

In the November issue of the Railway Magazine there was a short paragraph about the introduction. Vivarail say there were 'unexpected challenges with both train and infrastructure,' train meaning 230001. The article says that 230001 is expected to enter service in January 2023 because of these problems. I visited West Ealing the other week, and no work has been done on the charging system that I can see as of yet, presumably when they have fixed these problems it will be put in.

 

[Recessio]

In the November issue of the Railway Magazine there was a short paragraph about the introduction. Vivarail say there were 'unexpected challenges with both train and infrastructure,' train meaning 230001. The article says that 230001 is expected to enter service in January 2023 because of these problems. I visited West Ealing the other week, and no work has been done on the charging system that I can see as of yet, presumably when they have fixed these problems it will be put in.

Vivarail seem to have had a lot of "unexpected challenges" with every single class of train they've tried to introduce...

 

[D365]

Vivarail seem to have had a lot of "unexpected challenges" with every single class of train they've tried to introduce...

It's not an absolution, but this was always expected with the nature of the designs that Vivarail is producing. See also the difficulties that Porterbrook has faced.

 

[flitwickbeds]

It seems there was no service on the Greenford branch at all on 21st and 22nd November; was this related to the work?

 

[JonathanH]

It seems there was no service on the Greenford branch at all on 21st and 22nd November; was this related to the work?

More likely to be due to industrial action by signallers preventing the service running, because the rolling stock couldn't get to the line from Reading.

 

[thelongestroad]

Vivarail seem to have had a lot of "unexpected challenges" with every single class of train they've tried to introduce...

Much like any project the UK rail industry introduces....

 

[D365]

Much like any project the UK rail industry introduces....

And yet this forum questions the need for Hydrogen 'demonstrators'! Can't win.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Found this image of 230001 which is named as the Viva Venturer with DOO cameras at Bletchley TMD

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Found this image of 230001 which is named as the Viva Venturer with DOO cameras at Bletchley TMD

Would look much nicer if the front door was also silver.

 

[D365]

Would look much nicer if the front door was also silver.

Suspect it’s not a door that will be in regular use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Suspect it’s not a door that will be in regular use.

Due to platform lengths I recall it won't be used on these services hence it not being painted as one.

 

[amazon1675]

Vivarail seem to have had a lot of "unexpected challenges" with every single class of train they've tried to introduce...

Reminds me of the rush to diesel in the late 50 and early 60s. Lots of untested kit put on the main line(or not with most of the Vivarail projects) then costing the railway a fortune.Why not fully test the kit away from the real railway and then bring it to market shaken down and with mileage under the belt? Then again re-engineering old kit is never easy. Does it save money? Of course Vivarail are now in limbo,so expect more unexpected delays,and some expected ones too.

 

[zwk500]

Reminds me of the rush to diesel in the late 50 and early 60s. Lots of untested kit put on the main line(or not with most of the Vivarail projects) then costing the railway a fortune.Why not fully test the kit away from the real railway and then bring it to market shaken down and with mileage under the belt? Then again re-engineering old kit is never easy. Does it save money? Of course Vivarail are now in limbo,so expect more unexpected delays,and some expected ones too.

To be fair, Vivarail did a lot of testing at Honeybourne before putting their trains on the main line. Obviously they didn't do enough, but they did satisfy the regulations and requirements for certification. There's only so much testing on a heritage railway or other limited test track will reveal and there are always foibles when putting something into public use the first time.

 

[pdeaves]

To be fair, Vivarail did a lot of testing at Honeybourne before putting their trains on the main line. Obviously they didn't do enough, but they did satisfy the regulations and requirements for certification. There's only so much testing on a heritage railway or other limited test track will reveal and there are always foibles when putting something into public use the first time.

... and, only so much money available before the manufacturer needs to start earning, otherwise they might run out of money and go under...

 

[D365]

There's only so much testing on a heritage railway or other limited test track will reveal and there are always foibles when putting something into public use the first time.

Bingo. Look at how much time Crossrail spent 'dry running'.

 

[cactustwirly]

Due to platform lengths I recall it won't be used on these services hence it not being painted as one.

A 2 car 230 should be fine, a 2 car 165 is much longer and they fit the platforms perfectly fine

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is there a possibility of the length of track the train can be over at Greenford/Ealing being reduced due to the battery charging stuff being installed?

 

[pdeaves]

A 2 car 230 should be fine, a 2 car 165 is much longer and they fit the platforms perfectly fine

Is it a 3-car, though? I don't know, hence the question!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is it a 3-car, though? I don't know, hence the question!

It is, but seeing as 2-230s exist I don't see it as impossible to remove the middle car, unless it's set up wildly differently

 

[pdeaves]

It is, but seeing as 2-230s exist I don't see it as impossible to remove the middle car, unless it's set up wildly differently

Maybe the batteries need the space provided by an additional vehicle.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe the batteries need the space provided by an additional vehicle.

Sure. Personally I didn't expect a 3 carriage train to fit at Greenford.