How can Conwy be better served?

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think Conwy is underserved. I feel if more trains stopped usage would go up. Doesn’t justify Avanti services, but I’d consider it worthy of more calls. Same for Llanfairpwll.

Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Bodorgan, Ty Cross and Rhosneigr don’t need more. Valley already has slightly more.

Conwy is an extremely popular tourist (accommodation) destination and so, subject to use of local door or SDO, it should probably have more trains serving it including Avanti. Locals will probably just drive to the Junction, but much of the tourist traffic will just drive all the way absent a direct train, and it would not be at all hard to provide one.

Yes, you can take the bus across, but tourists won't. They might change trains if the change is good, though.

One reasonably viable option post-197 is that the Manchester-Bangor should serve it clockface hourly, but the Holyhead service not. That would offer a reasonable selection of connections from Liverpool at Chester at least.

 

[Manutd1999]

With a complete re-cast, moving the North Wales Coast line to a 'flighted' 4ph operation would be nice:

- 2ph all-stop from Llandudno to Chester, with one continuing to Liverpool
- 2ph fast from Holyhead calling at Bangor, Llanfairfechan/Penmaenmawr (1ph each), Conwy, Llandudno Junction and Chester - then continuing to Manchester and Birmingham/Cardiff

The London services could be added in as extras

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it makes more sense to keep the Liverpools and Manchesters as the slower services. A significant part of the market from those cities is tourism, and Shotton and Flint aside, pretty much all stations along the coast are tourist destinations in some form. Holyhead for the ferry is a minority destination - most people wanting to go to Ireland as foot passengers fly, and in any case neither service will go to Holyhead.

My ideal pre-HS2* would be:
1tph London-Holyhead (Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Jn, possibly Conwy**, Bangor, Holyhead) - more or less as now but hourly
1tph wherever-Shrewsbury-<some stops>-Chester, Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colywn Bay, Llandudno Jn, Bangor, Llanfairpwll, (request: Ty Croes, Valley, Bodorgan), Holyhead
1tph Manchester Airport-Manchester Picc-Oxford Road-Warrington BQ-Frodsham-Runcorn E-Chester-all stations to Bangor with Llanfairfechan/Penmaenmawr on request.
1tph Liverpool Lime St-Runcorn-Chester-all stations to Llandudno
1tph Llandudno-Junction-Llandudno shuttle before the Liverpool heads back
Whatever the Conwy Valley gets (different thread).
Chester-Crewe shuttle in the opposite half hour to the Avanti

So looking at the stations that would be the following served by all trains: Chester, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colywyn Bay, Llandudno Junction
Llanfairpwll, Ty Croes, Valley, Bodorgan, Holyhead: Only served by the Holyhead
Llandudno: Liverpool plus a shuttle to the Junction in the opposite half hour
Llanfairfechan/Penmaenmawr: only served by the Manchester
Conwy: served by the London ideally, plus the Manchester and the Holyhead
Shotton: served by the Holyhead, the Liverpool and the Manchester (due to its connectional value)
Abergele: served by the Liverpool and Manchester (because it's a beach day out that might be desirable from either)

I think that's it. Though there's the option to chuck things into the mix like a "Y Sherpa'r Eryri***" or something as a DalesRail-a-like from Liverpool/Manchester onto the Conwy Valley with connecting bus services to Pen y Pass and the likes which I believe is being actively considered by TfW, but this could be chucked into the pattern above as a portion.

* Post HS2 it is worth giving consideration to terminating the service from Cardiff etc at Chester, and replacing it with a service from Holyhead to Birmingham International via Stafford as used to run, or somehow portion working both. It can't be pathed now, though. If this was implemented the shuttle would be removed.

** If there was a good connection in both directions at LLJ then this call would not be needed, but as it's a holiday destination and people holiday in North Wales by train from London (though not as many as do from Liverpool/Manchester) then this call may be worthwhile.

*** "The Snowdonia Sherpa", to differentiate itself from "Sherpa'r Wyddfa", the bus service.

 

[geordieblue]

With a complete re-cast, moving the North Wales Coast line to a 'flighted' 4ph operation would be nice:

- 2ph all-stop from Llandudno to Chester, with one continuing to Liverpool
- 2ph fast from Holyhead calling at Bangor, Llanfairfechan/Penmaenmawr (1ph each), Conwy, Llandudno Junction and Chester - then continuing to Manchester and Birmingham/Cardiff

The London services could be added in as extras

How do you serve the other stations in Anglesey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you serve the other stations in Anglesey?

Interestingly they used to be served by interworking with the Conwy Valley using a pair of 101s. Two units did both about every 2 hours, rather than one on the Valley alone every three at present, in and out of Llandudno. It also meant the Valley had more usefully timed services rather than just blind "exactly every 3 hours". They passed at North Llanrwst.

 

[507020]

One reasonably viable option post-197 is that the Manchester-Bangor should serve it clockface hourly, but the Holyhead service not. That would offer a reasonable selection of connections from Liverpool at Chester at least.

If there are to be Bangor terminating services, could these potentially be extended to Llanberis/Afon Wen subject to reopening?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would very simply

Have the 1tp2h for Birmingham call at Holyhead, Valley, Rhosneigr, Ty Croes, Bodorgan, Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Conwy, Llandudno Jct, etc.

Have the 1tp2h for Cardiff call at Holyhead, Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Conwy, Llandudno Jct, etc.

Have Avanti West Coast call as frequently as possible but continue to run Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Jct.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would very simply

Have the 1tp2h for Birmingham call at Holyhead, Valley, Rhosneigr, Ty Croes, Bodorgan, Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Conwy, Llandudno Jct, etc.

Have the 1tp2h for Cardiff call at Holyhead, Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Conwy, Llandudno Jct, etc.

Have Avanti West Coast call as frequently as possible but continue to run Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Jct.

Don't forget the forthcoming Manchester-Bangor. Why not have that do Llanfairfechan and Penmanmawr?

 

[Parallel]

I think an hourly service would be an improvement on what’s offered now. Broadly, there are now 1tp2h calls at the request stops between Llandudno Junction and Bangor, and 1tp2h stops at the stations between Bangor and Holyhead. I agree that Conwy and Llanfairpwll could do with hourly calls so the TfW services to Holyhead could stop at both.

Really the platforms at Conwy need lengthening. If this isn’t possible due to their location, maybe the station would need re-siting.

Shotton Low Level could do with a half hourly service too, similar to what is offered at Flint.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Don't forget the forthcoming Manchester-Bangor. Why not have that do Llanfairfechan and Penmanmawr?

Oh yes, well I would.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really the platforms at Conwy need lengthening. If this isn’t possible due to their location, maybe the station would need re-siting.

I struggled to see any feasibility for that when I last looked, so it'll always have to be SDO or local door.

Shotton Low Level could do with a half hourly service too, similar to what is offered at Flint.

Giving it both the Liverpool and Manchester would achieve that assuming they're far enough apart time-wise.

 

[Manutd1999]

How do you serve the other stations in Anglesey?

Request stop on one (or both) of the services to Holyhead

 

[Esker-pades]

1tph for Conwy seems enough, and that'll happen with the start of the Manchester to Bangor services (unless something very odd occurs).

 

[6Gman]

If there are to be Bangor terminating services, could these potentially be extended to Llanberis/Afon Wen subject to reopening?

Not until you find a way of getting through Caernarfon.

 

[cactustwirly]

I would very simply

Have the 1tp2h for Birmingham call at Holyhead, Valley, Rhosneigr, Ty Croes, Bodorgan, Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Conwy, Llandudno Jct, etc.

Have the 1tp2h for Cardiff call at Holyhead, Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Conwy, Llandudno Jct, etc.

Have Avanti West Coast call as frequently as possible but continue to run Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Jct.

Which has the most demand for end to end journeys?

Surely you'd put the extra stops on the Cardiff, as the Birmingham service should have the most demand

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Which has the most demand for end to end journeys?

Surely you'd put the extra stops on the Cardiff, as the Birmingham service should have the most demand

I’m not going to advocate for clumsy MK4 sets to call at tiny stations if a DMU can do it. Besides, it’s the Birminghams that do the stops today.

 

[cactustwirly]

I’m not going to advocate for clumsy MK4 sets to call at tiny stations if a DMU can do it. Besides, it’s the Birminghams that do the stops today.

Why not? TfW only have MK4s as they didn't have enough 197s.
The original plan was to have DMUs on both services

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why not? TfW only have MK4s as they didn't have enough 197s.
The original plan was to have DMUs on both services

Far slower at acceleration and deceleration than 197s, and adding to that there must be a reason most stopping services are the Birminghams today.

 

[markymark2000]

Shotton Low Level could do with a half hourly service too, similar to what is offered at Flint.

Shotton is hardly used really. A few people per train.

Most flows from Shotton Low Level I would argue are to Chester and they have 4 buses per hour direct to Chester City Centre. Plus another 2 if you go the slower way. Buses pick them up closer to their home, drop them closer into Chester City Centre. If you add in end to end journey time, there is negliable difference in train and bus. The bus is also cheaper. Patronage from Shotton up the coast doesn't seem that high really either, certainly not any journeys where train would be significantly better than the train. Much of Shottons overall passenger numbers seem to be on the borderlands line.


Shotton I would argue is perfectly fine as it is.


Flint I think can make use of the higher frequency of trains though as the buses aren't as good and trains provide a much large journey time benefit there.

 

[507020]

Not until you find a way of getting through Caernarfon.

Don’t tell me the original trackbed has been built on. Caernarfon is too big of a town not to be served and the tourist potential of the Llanberis branch is not to be underestimated.

 

[mrd269697]

Shotton is hardly used really. A few people per train.

Most flows from Shotton Low Level I would argue are to Chester and they have 4 buses per hour direct to Chester City Centre. Plus another 2 if you go the slower way. Buses pick them up closer to their home, drop them closer into Chester City Centre. If you add in end to end journey time, there is negliable difference in train and bus. The bus is also cheaper. Patronage from Shotton up the coast doesn't seem that high really either, certainly not any journeys where train would be significantly better than the train. Much of Shottons overall passenger numbers seem to be on the borderlands line.


Shotton I would argue is perfectly fine as it is.


Flint I think can make use of the higher frequency of trains though as the buses aren't as good and trains provide a much large journey time benefit there.

I’d argue that it ian’t busy because since LL reopening it hasn’t had a good service. The combined settlement it serves (Shotton, Connahs Quay and Queensferry) is the largest conurbation in Flintshire. Needs a big refurb and more frequent services in my opinion

 

[507020]

I’d argue that it ian’t busy because since LL reopening it hasn’t had a good service. The combined settlement it serves (Shotton, Connahs Quay and Queensferry) is the largest conurbation in Flintshire. Needs a big refurb and more frequent services in my opinion

The issue is that since the closure of the line to Northgate it hasn’t been possible to segregate local traffic from the coast or even Irish through traffic.

 

[Bikeman78]

Interestingly they used to be served by interworking with the Conwy Valley using a pair of 101s. Two units did both about every 2 hours, rather than one on the Valley alone every three at present, in and out of Llandudno. It also meant the Valley had more usefully timed services rather than just blind "exactly every 3 hours". They passed at North Llanrwst.

Slight nitpick but I'm fairly sure it was three units. By the late 1990s it was usually two 101s and a sprinter on the third diagram.

 

[RobShipway]

Back in the 1970's/80's the locals had both trains and buses that could take them all the way from Chester to Holyhead with those services always stopping at Conwy if my memory serves me correctly?

The bus service was the L1 service run by Crossville Buses. Nowadays, you have to take three different bus services along the coast to get from say Chester to Conwy.

in looking at Real Time Trains for Conwy, the first train does not arrive until 11am. Okay, it is a Sunday, but what about anyone needing to get to Conway before 9am? The next service to arrive at Conwy after the 1101 arrives at 14:13pm. Both services are Llandudno Junction to Holyhead services. The only Holyhead - Llandudno junction services to stop are the 1807 and 2045, so you can see why people take to their cars.

The services are a little better week days, with services from Holyhead/Birmingham International stopping every 1 - 2 hours, Crewe every 4 hours, Manchester Airport, Cardiff Central, Shrewsbury and Maesteg either once or twice a day.
Without slowing down existing services that do not stop at Conwy, I am not sure how you will be able to provide a better service, especially if the demand from passengers is not there in the first place.

If it was me though, I would add in if the paths where available more services from Holyhead to both Manchester Airport and Birmingham International that stopped at Conwy. Although, the platforms can only serve two coach trains and since those trains are sometime 3 car class 175 units, it may make it difficult unless 'Local Door Operation' can be used on them.

 

[zwk500]

Don’t tell me the original trackbed has been built on. Caernarfon is too big of a town not to be served and the tourist potential of the Llanberis branch is not to be underestimated.

Have a look on the National Library of Scotland Maps. A road has been widened over the trackbed between Caernarfon and Port Dinorwic including a roundabout, The line through Port Dinorwic has also been built over, and at Caernarfon there's supermarkets on the edge of town and the tunnel under the town is now a road.

 

[507020]

Have a look on the National Library of Scotland Maps. A road has been widened over the trackbed between Caernarfon and Port Dinorwic including a roundabout, The line through Port Dinorwic has also been built over, and at Caernarfon there's supermarkets on the edge of town and the tunnel under the town is now a road.

So basically no. It would just be a case of replacing the roads with a railway again and as with the borders railway it’s possible to make a deviation around a supermarket.

 

[daodao]

Back in the 1970's/80's the locals had both trains and buses that could take them all the way from Chester to Holyhead with those services always stopping at Conwy if my memory serves me correctly?

Conway railway station was closed as part of the Beeching cuts on 14 February 1966 but reopened (as Conwy) on 29 June 1987. It deserves an hourly service, as do most other minor stations west of Llandudno Junction, but by local services that ideally do not require SDO.

 

[RobShipway]

Conway railway station was closed as part of the Beeching cuts on 14 February 1966 but reopened (as Conwy) on 29 June 1987. It deserves an hourly service, as do most other minor stations west of Llandudno Junction, but by local services that ideally do not require SDO.

Then you are limiting the services to two car trains off peak, which certainly at peak times would fill up quite easily when travelling from Holyhead to say Crewe, Manchester Airport, Cardiff Central or Birmingham International. It would could possibly be full going Westbound too at peak times? Hence, why these services are either two two car class 158's or three car class 175 doing these services.

 

[zwk500]

So basically no. It would just be a case of replacing the roads with a railway again and as with the borders railway it’s possible to make a deviation around a supermarket.

Your use of 'just', is on this occassion, quite unjustified. To remove the roads outright is not feasible, to realign the roads would be just as expensive as realigning the railway. The construction width required is no longer available. And there's no suitable station site at Caernarfon. Oh, and forget any thought about branches going up the valley or further south, as the WHR is there now.

Did you even look at the maps?

 

[507020]

Your use of 'just', is on this occassion, quite unjustified. To remove the roads outright is not feasible, to realign the roads would be just as expensive as realigning the railway. The construction width required is no longer available. And there's no suitable station site at Caernarfon. Oh, and forget any thought about branches going up the valley or further south, as the WHR is there now.

Did you even look at the maps?

My justification is that closing flat public roads is easier than having to compulsory purchase or demolish anyone’s private house or other buildings. I have looked at maps and thought a tunnel was involved. Could the station actually be in the tunnel? Yes I know that wouldn’t be cheap. I’m not going to forget about the branch to Llanberis for obvious reasons. Does the WHR actually need so much of the width of the trackbed that it couldn’t coexist with a standard gauge line?