'Polygraph' kit deployed to Northern barriers to detect 'chancers'

[JB_B]

'Polygraph' tests used as a measure of (dis)honesty have - to say the least - a scant evidence base.

See e.g. https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/10420/chapter/10#213 etc.

I think that's why many current Polygraph test providers are so keen to say : "Oh NO! It's not a lie detector! Heaven forfend!" - when they're fully aware that's how the results might be used.

See also:-

The polygraph and false confessions

False confessions are a leading cause of wrongful convictions. According to the Innocence Project, about 25 percent of the documented DNA exoneration cases involved incriminating statements, full c…

wrongfulconvictionsblog.org

Quite why NR's PR people thought that 'polygraph' would be a useful metaphor for their ticket scanner is beyond me.

 

[station_road]

So I'm on and carry a Railcard, is a gate gonna bleep until an inspector comes over to check card and ticket? So I'm guilty until proved innocent, with everyone watching on? Have I got that right or am I miles off as I don't understand these new readers? Do you scan your Railcard too?

How is this any different to an on-board ticket inspector asking to see your railcard? I don't understand the objection to this, no-one saying you are guilty of anything.

 

[Jim]

Yes for CCST tickets, no for barcode tickets. With cubic gates at least, special rules don't work on barcode tickets with the exception of child tickets.

They keep saying there will be a fix, but they're not rushing

Ahhh I see, back when I was dealing with ticket barriers we had none of this mobile phone ticket stuff lol!

 

[JonathanH]

Doesn't stop the big issue of people jumping on anywhere, getting into a station like Leeds and then buying a very cheap advance ticket into Leeds from cheapest possible destination point. I see this pretty much every day.

If the gates were reprogrammed to require evidence of a barcode scan at the origin station - eg for journeys from gated stations such as Harrogate or Skipton, that 'big issue' could be overcome.

 

[robbeech]

Never mind that - will it be smart enough to identify passengers with a Rail Rover....

Leeds rejected a South Pennines Day ranger the other day.
But then it rejected a Sheffield to York ticket too.

Sorry to hear you feel that way. What ticket or journey gets rejected and on what media, happy to take a look

Tickets with clear BOJ entitlement get rejected at Leeds now, they all used to let you out and then some would let you back in. Sheffield to York SVR is rejected in and out for example.
Technically all tickets valid at Leeds should let you out including advances as station facilities go beyond the gateline, I understand the difficulty in letting someone back in, at least with non barcoded tickets. I welcome any crack down on fare evasion though providing it doesn’t cause significant delay, which it currently seems to do.

If the gates were reprogrammed to require evidence of a barcode scan at the origin station - eg for journeys from gated stations such as Harrogate or Skipton, that 'big issue' could be overcome.

This would end in chaos, what if you’re using multiple tickets for your journey? What if the barriers were open at the origin? What if you started short on a ticket that permitted it?



Railcard discounted tickets at barriers asking for proof of railcard seems like a good idea providing a method can be made efficient enough. Scanning a digital railcard with the same reader. Or having a barcode / qr or whatever printed on plastic railcards.
Rejecting all railcarded tickets requires a larger than normal staff presence, this is the bit they’ll forget.

 

[Watershed]

If the gates were reprogrammed to require evidence of a barcode scan at the origin station - eg for journeys from gated stations such as Harrogate or Skipton, that 'big issue' could be overcome.

That wouldn't be foolproof though. There will be times when the barriers are open at those origin stations; imagine the queues and overcrowding if everyone with tickets from those stations was rejected for 'secondary' checks!

 

[td97]

If the gates were reprogrammed to require evidence of a barcode scan at the origin station - eg for journeys from gated stations such as Harrogate or Skipton, that 'big issue' could be overcome.

Tickets at the Piccadilly barriers definitely require an entry scan if starting at a barriered station. The manual gateline staff check that information in their app too.
It has to be an entry scan, not an on-board scan, which can mean you have to explain yourself when using split tickets.

 

[yorkie]

If the gates were reprogrammed to require evidence of a barcode scan at the origin station - eg for journeys from gated stations such as Harrogate or Skipton, that 'big issue' could be overcome.

This is completely false and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding. In any case, if you have any more ideas, please post them in the speculative discussion section.

 

[JonathanH]

This is completely false and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding. In any case, if you have any more ideas, please post them in the speculative discussion section.

What is completely false? Officially, an advance ticket must be used between the stations on the ticket. While I acknowledge that there is no requirement to scan at the initial station, an explanation appears to be required in some instances where that scan is not made.

The post above by td97 implies that this is already being done at Manchester Piccadilly, and we know it is being done by on-train staff in the disputes thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/starting-short-advanced-northern.236633/#post-5830504

 

[yorkie]

What is completely false? Officially, an advance ticket must be used between the stations on the ticket. While I acknowledge that there is no requirement to scan at the initial station, an explanation appears to be required in some instances where that scan is not made.

The post above by td97 implies that this is already being done at Manchester Piccadilly, and we know it is being done by on-train staff in the disputes thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/starting-short-advanced-northern.236633/#post-5830504

There is no requirement to scan in at the start of a ticket/journey; if you want one to be introduced, feel free to create a new thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tickets at the Piccadilly barriers definitely require an entry scan if starting at a barriered station.

They definitely don't, or if they do it's only from some stations. All manner of stuff opens that gateline, including e.g. an e-ticket from Lancaster (admittedly not gated) or Bletchley (gated, but at the moment almost always open) that hadn't been scanned by anything.

What isn't at all unusual is setting gates to reject all Advances (so the time can be checked) or those from a specific station, is this perhaps giving that impression?

 

[yorkie]

Tickets at the Piccadilly barriers definitely require an entry scan if starting at a barriered station. The manual gateline staff check that information in their app too.
It has to be an entry scan, not an on-board scan, which can mean you have to explain yourself when using split tickets.

I've seen no evidence of this; I will keep an eye out. If this is going on, it needs investigating as it sounds like potential wrongdoing on the part of the company/companies involved.

 

[JonathanH]

There is no requirement to scan in at the start of a ticket/journey; if you want one to be introduced, feel free to create a new thread.

I definitely don't want one to be introduced.

However, it appears that the absence of a scan at the initial station is starting to be used as a revenue protection tool as evidenced by the link I gave regarding a passenger who started short on a Leeds to York advance ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even the Albanian State Washing Machine Company has technology way in advance of Northern Rail.

Have you seen the state of Hekurudha Shquiptare?

 

[Haywain]

If this is going on, it needs investigating as it sounds like potential wrongdoing on the part of the company/companies involved.

I can’t see that there is any wrongdoing unless people are being penalised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t see that there is any wrongdoing unless people are being penalised.

Indeed, I don't see why on tickets where the conditions mandate starting at the station on the ticket they shouldn't do basic checks to see if you did. Where it would be a problem would be if they penalised people on wrongful grounds, e.g. where they did indeed start at the correct station but arrived there on another train using another ticket which they had discarded because it no longer had validity.

 

[Haywain]

However, it appears that the absence of a scan at the initial station is starting to be used as a revenue protection tool as evidenced by the link I gave.

That was about where the train was boarded, and was an on train check. It was nothing to do with barriers.

 

[geoffk]

And continental railways don't seem to see the need for ticket gates at all, with a few exceptions. Are they more honest over there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And continental railways don't seem to see the need for ticket gates at all, with a few exceptions. Are they more honest over there?

Schwarzfahren in Germany is a national sport. And countries are increasingly moving to gatelines - France and Italy for instance now have some gated stations, near enough the whole Dutch system is gated, and Spain does boarding like an airport with staff.

 

[paul1609]

As the north hasn't implemented basic revenue protection policy and still can't provide basic things like ticket machines at all stations, what about jumping straight to the Moscow Metros Face Pay system. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...metro-rolls-out-facial-recognition-pay-system ?
A premium charge could be introduced for paper tickets and e ticket that are mostly bought on the train when challenged

 

[Benjwri]

Indeed, I don't see why on tickets where the conditions mandate starting at the station on the ticket they shouldn't do basic checks to see if you did.

I would say setting up barriers to do this is just asking for chaos. The only way to do so would be to set up some way they could know if the barriers were in force at the starting station. Otherwise let's say the staff at Reading open the barriers for whatever reason and don't check tickets, then when the train arrives at Paddington the staff will be overcome by passengers having their ticket rejected. Obviously the issue would be eventually realised, but would inconvenience many. The same would occur in the evenings when gate lines are opened as staff finish work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say setting up barriers to do this is just asking for chaos. The only way to do so would be to set up some way they could know if the barriers were in force at the starting station. Otherwise let's say the staff at Reading open the barriers for whatever reason and don't check tickets, then when the train arrives at Paddington the staff will be overcome by passengers having their ticket rejected. Obviously the issue would be eventually realised, but would inconvenience many. The same would occur in the evenings when gate lines are opened as staff finish work.

Overcome by it? How many people use Advances from Reading to Paddington?

 

[Benjwri]

Overcome by it? How many people use Advances from Reading to Paddington?

Ahh my bad, didn't read this was about just Advances, assumed it meant any ticket. The answer would be zero anyways, since Advances aren't offered between the two.

 

[sk688]

If the gates were reprogrammed to require evidence of a barcode scan at the origin station - eg for journeys from gated stations such as Harrogate or Skipton, that 'big issue' could be overcome.

there are also stations with no gates,which have e-tickets and barcode tickets available, such as Oldfield Park for example , so it would cause more hassle than tackle problems

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ahh my bad, didn't read this was about just Advances, assumed it meant any ticket. The answer would be zero anyways, since Advances aren't offered between the two.

It's not relevant to the vast majority of walk-up tickets because they generally permit break of journey.

On the other hand I suppose if a particular station was commonly used for short-faring, that station was gated and a lot of people showed up with tickets showing no entry scan when the gateline was known to be closed, that might be worth looking at.

 

[Benjwri]

It's not relevant to the vast majority of walk-up tickets because they generally permit break of journey.

On the other hand I suppose if a particular station was commonly used for short-faring, that station was gated and a lot of people showed up with tickets showing no entry scan when the gateline was known to be closed, that might be worth looking at.

Although whether it's a good thing that it wouldn't happen that much is debatable. If someone walks up to a barrier and is rejected because the didn't have an entry scan, but that turns out to be for a valid reason, for example a staff member let them through the original gate, wether they should have or not, or they entered the rail network from another network, such as TramLink at Wimbledon, what happens if the inspector doesn't believe them? Do they just get fined and have to fight the TOC later, something that is incredibly stressful and stops them wanting to travel again. Sure it won't be a hugely common occurrence, but from the times we've heard about it happening from on train checks, that is already too many times, it would increase exponentially in a wide scale roll out.

 

[Haywain]

On the other hand I suppose if a particular station was commonly used for short-faring, that station was gated and a lot of people showed up with tickets showing no entry scan when the gateline was known to be closed, that might be worth looking at.

A sort of electronic version of the Burley Park voucher scheme. Just using revenue staff to make sure everybody using eTickets at Burley Park scans on entry.

 

[td97]

What isn't at all unusual is setting gates to reject all Advances (so the time can be checked) or those from a specific station, is this perhaps giving that impression?

Unlikely, given I exited the Piccadilly barriers before my advance ticket departure time earlier this week (obviously obtained permission from guard before departure).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unlikely, given I exited the Piccadilly barriers before my advance ticket departure time earlier this week (obviously obtained permission from guard before departure).

Gatelines aren't normally intelligent enough to open only near the time of an Advance, but for a "blitz" can be set to reject ALL Advances.

A sort of electronic version of the Burley Park voucher scheme. Just using revenue staff to make sure everybody using eTickets at Burley Park scans on entry.

Yep.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The special rules on gates (that don't work on barcode tickets yet!) Can be set to either Reject or alarm.

They should try it at Oxford Road