• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

'Polygraph' kit deployed to Northern barriers to detect 'chancers'

Status
Not open for further replies.

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
IIRC, all the barriers were shut and people with barcode tickets were directed to the 2 wide gates at the end. These gates were open, and had a portable white box attached to them. The barcode would be scanned on the white box, and then would have a noise and a red light if invalid, prompting the staff to take a further check, or a green light and a noise if valid.
One of these scanners rejected a perfectly valid ticket of mine earlier this year at Deansgate and resulted in Northern having to refund me. I wonder how many people have had to pay more or been collared because of these machines and the p*ss poor staff Northern hire from the wannabe A-Team villains?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,708
Location
Sheffield
Tickets at the Piccadilly barriers definitely require an entry scan if starting at a barriered station. The manual gateline staff check that information in their app too.
I use paper tickets so have not encountered this but I would be very surprised if the Piccadilly manual checkers had much idea whether any given station outside the immediate area was barriered or not as they seemingly have little clue as to where places themselves are in relation to Manchester.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
11,686
Location
Salford Quays, Manchester
The fetish for setting the gates to block Railcard tickets 24/7 is a right pain - it just causes hold-ups at the gateline and trains people to not even bother trying to insert their tickets. It should have been set up like LUL do; an alert light illuminates on the gate's display pod and an RPI seeing it can swoop in, but there' no hold-up if there's nobody there to see it.
Which I believe is what a number of National Rail barriers do with Child tickets, but not Railcard holders. Daft. Couldn't agree with you more though. One of these days I'm going to miss a train because of the block on railcards, and you can bet I'll be writing a strong complaint.
 
Last edited:

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,152
One of these days I'm going to miss a train because of the block on railcards, and you can bet I'll be writing a strong complaint.
About the fact that you cut things so tight that a railcard check can have that effect? Take a tip: give yourself a few more minutes and find life a bit less stressful.
 

farleigh

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2016
Messages
1,156
About the fact that you cut things so tight that a railcard check can have that effect? Take a tip: give yourself a few more minutes and find life a bit less stressful.
Do passengers now need to allow time for these checks then?
 

CHESHIRECAT

Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
280
One thing the MCV barriers do is stop the use off o/p tickets during evening peak within GMPTE area! which those at Piccadilly don't
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
One thing the MCV barriers do is stop the use off o/p tickets during evening peak within GMPTE area! which those at Piccadilly don't
The problem is, there are several places in the North West without an evening peak or where off peak tickets are valid in both peaks. So how do those machines work?
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,708
Location
Sheffield
The problem is, there are several places in the North West without an evening peak or where off peak tickets are valid in both peaks. So how do those machines work?
In my experience, at Manchester Victoria the barrier rejects the valid off peak ticket and then a clueless gateline numpty falsely states "it is peak time".
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,152
The problem is, there are several places in the North West without an evening peak or where off peak tickets are valid in both peaks. So how do those machines work?
Restrictions are applied by a combination of destination and ticket type, so applying the afternoon restriction to stations within GM and not others is entirely possible.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
In my experience, at Manchester Victoria the barrier rejects the valid off peak ticket and then a clueless gateline numpty falsely states "it is peak time".
As I thought...
Restrictions are applied by a combination of destination and ticket type, so applying the afternoon restriction to stations within GM and not others is entirely possible.
Some of these tickets are valid into GM, as they require transfer.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,708
Location
Sheffield
Restrictions are applied by a combination of destination and ticket type, so applying the afternoon restriction to stations within GM and not others is entirely possible.
That seems to be the problem at Victoria, they apply the restriction because the destination station is in GM when the ticket held has no such restriction.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
“Now”? You’ve always had to factor in the potential for your ticket to be checked.
But how much time is reasonable? I've certainly been refunded due to a missed train from Leeds when the whole gate line had gone oddly exit only and we were made to wait nearly ten minutes.

Leave earlier? Well, I could have tried to hurry my hospital clinician, but I think I would prefer the railways ran to sensible times!
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,152
This story has come up again today, this time with 'softer' language being used:
Train operator deploys new kit to detect ‘chancers’ using the wrong ticket at station barriers
December 5, 2022

Automated ticket checks at barriers in Northern-managed stations are about to get ‘smarter’ thanks to new technology that will alert staff to potential ‘chancers’ using an incorrect ticket. The new technology will quickly and accurately check that a ticket is valid, but also alert staff if that validity requires additional checks such as presentation of the appropriate railcard. Staff will then confirm the ticket is being used correctly, taking the necessary action if it isn’t.

With over 300,000 people using automated barriers across its network every day, checking the credentials of every ticket is a huge task – particularly at the larger stations during rush hour. Some tickets are only valid with a railcard, while others are discounted for customers of a particular age group, such as those for children.

In a trial at Manchester Victoria earlier this month, the technology was used during a revenue protection exercise where it helped to detect 180 people in one day alone, with almost 900 caught during the full length of the trial. Those attempting to travel using a ticket they were not eligible to use, included:
52 people benefitting from a railcard discount they were not able to present for inspection
24 adults travelling on a children’s ticket
As a result, the train operator was able to issue 79 penalty fares worth over £1,500 and launch 101 investigations into various ticket irregularities – the process by which Northern recovers money for the taxpayer lost by fraudulent travel.

Mark Powles, customer and commercial director at Northern, said: “This technology will be invaluable for our gate line and revenue protection colleagues whose job it is to ensure ticket checks are carried out quickly and efficiently. Unfortunately, we know that a small minority of customers try to exploit the automated nature of barrier checks to travel on tickets they know they’re not eligible to use.

“The kit is very easy to install and can be deployed to known hotspots across the whole network to help tackle this fraudulent activity.”

Northern has worked with The Ticket Keeper (TTK) – an organisation that specialises in the development, marketing and roll-out of ticketing systems for the UK rail industry – on the new technology. Tim Handel, managing director of TTK, said: “TTK’s collaboration with Northern draws on our years of expertise at the forefront of rail ticket validation enabling us to bring innovative and cost-effective solutions to the industry."

“Our motivation is to enable Northern to identify and prevent fraudulent rail travel and we are pleased to continue our work with them to further develop the TTK ‘T-Val’ technology and build on the already considerable success born out of this partnership.”

Northern in the second largest train operator in the UK, with nearly 2,000 services a day to more than 500 stations across the North of England. On Sunday, 11 December Northern’s new timetable comes into effect and all customers, especially those who have made regular journeys on the same train times, are advised to check online journey planners before they travel to ensure their service operates at the same time and calls at the same stations.
 

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,015
This sounds interesting until you realise it's Northern/private sub-contractor staff manning these things.

I once had a Northern sub-contractor try to issue me with a £20 penalty fare for asking to buy a £15 weekly season ticket at destination station that I could not purchase at the station of origin.

Thankfully uncommon but by no means an exceptional case. The railway has been relying on cheap and poorly trained staff for years to the detriment of providing good customer service that many franchises are often too unwilling to concede.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,526
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
This sounds interesting until you realise it's Northern/private sub-contractor staff manning these things.

I once had a Northern sub-contractor try to issue me with a £20 penalty fare for asking to buy a £15 weekly season ticket at destination station that I could not purchase at the station of origin.

Thankfully uncommon but by no means an exceptional case. The railway has been relying on cheap and poorly trained staff for years to the detriment of providing good customer service.

While poor customer service I don't think that is actually technically wrong. Technically you're meant to buy a single and trade it in against a season, though I don't know if all TISs can actually do this (though I know for a fact that LM/LNR could do it before the Euston 8-11 booking office closed).
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
16,244
While poor customer service I don't think that is actually technically wrong. Technically you're meant to buy a single and trade it in against a season, though I don't know if all TISs can actually do this (though I know for a fact that LM/LNR could do it before the Euston 8-11 booking office closed).
That was the rule but is no longer the case.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
4,455
Location
Reading
What is written on the matter now?
You must ask specifically about your particular situation and follow the advice you are given and keep a written record of it in case there is a dispute.
If you don't buy the single you might have to pay a Penalty Fare or be prosecuted.
If you do buy it you can no longer assume you will get that money back.

Some will advise you to set off without a ticket and purchase it later and won't credit you if you get a single.
Others will advise you to buy the single and credit you for it against a season and charge a Penalty Fare if you don't.
Others will tell you to buy the season in advance or else pay twice over or else obtain a Promise to Pay Cash authority by lying to the machine or to log your journey using a help point at your origin.

The railway has lost interest in handling situations like this consistently. Custom and practice varies.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
16,244
What is written on the matter now?
If you cannot purchase the ticket you require before you start your journey because the ticket office is closed (or there isn't one), or the TVM doesn't sell the ticket you require then you may purchase on board or at your destination.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
4,455
Location
Reading
If you cannot purchase the ticket you require before you start your journey because the ticket office is closed (or there isn't one), or the TVM doesn't sell the ticket you require then you may purchase on board or at your destination.

Reference?

You will find that as a local policy in some locations and in respect of certain ticket or discount categories in certain contexts but I'm unaware of any official notice that makes that universal. Nor am I aware of any case law that clarifies what counts as ticketing facilities in these situations in the byelaw exemption, but I think there's a real chance someone following that advice could be prosecuted successfully.

Remember that until the last major revision of the NRCoT in those circumstances you were obliged to purchase a ticket to enable you to make the first part of your journey (and so you did not breach the byelaw), the cost of which would be credited against the ticket you bought later.

The NRCOC said:
3. Where the full range of tickets is not available If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel

This got withdrawn and replaced by precisely nothing. It was clear and compatible with the byelaw in a straightforward way.
 
Last edited:

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,298
While poor customer service I don't think that is actually technically wrong. Technically you're meant to buy a single and trade it in against a season, though I don't know if all TISs can actually do this (though I know for a fact that LM/LNR could do it before the Euston 8-11 booking office closed).
EMR state:

Buying Season tickets​

If you’d like to buy a Season ticket and the ticket office is closed, you can buy a weekly Season ticket from a ticket machine. You must already have a photocard to do this.

If you’d like to buy a monthly or longer Season ticket, you should buy a single ticket for your destination, or a Permit to Travel, and then buy your Season ticket at a ticket office. We'll deduct the cost of your single ticket or Permit to Travel from the cost of your Season ticket.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top