Made a mistake without valid ticket - Awaiting follow up

[qwertasda]

Hi All, Hope everyone is doing well, I'll cut to it. First thing is I fully acknowledge that I was in the wrong and am merely wondering what my best course of action would be in order to minimise any repercussions.

What happened:
Recently travelling home from London via tube and then changing to overground (Thameslink). I tapped in on the Victoria line (at Brixton) travelled to the station (Finnsbury Park) at which there were no barriers and I forgot to tap out, also in doing this I just assumed that my journey was still being tracked and could then tap out at my final destination.
After the tube I got on a Cambridge train hoping to go to Hatfield - however the train I got on was a fast train and took me to Stevenage instead. So I then took the train from Stevenage to Hatfield.

It was on this last train that a ticket inspector asked to see my ticket. I responded truthfully by saying I wanted to "tap-out" at Hatfield to which he told me I couldn't do that. He then questioned me on my journey which I told the truth (a bit muddled in how I said it). He then said he didn't believe me because why would I be heading South when coming from London. He repeatedly asked me to tell the truth on what my journey was to which I repeated my story but he didn't believe me. At this point he asked me some questions took my details and I think I am now being processed by Govia Thameslink.

The inspector also said it would be worth explaining this to the company and to be proactive

My "reasons" for the mistake (not that this justifies it):
The usual train route I used had no services running so I was using new stations on a route to get home and had not pre-bought a ticket as I was unsure of the route I was going on
I assumed even without a ticket I would have been able to tap out and if this had not worked I would have spoken with someone and explained what happened. I know my normal station (St Albans) has contactless payment so thought others would work like this
This is the 1st time I have been on a train without a ticket and

My Questions:
Is there anything I can do before receiving an intention to prosecute? (Not sure if I will get one but assuming so)
Are there any steps I can take to avoid a criminal prosecution via settlement etc.?
Is using a solicitor worthwhile to assist in this process?
Any other general advice for my situation?

Thank you and appreciate the help.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

Others will be along with more suggestions, but for the moment I would say that you want to be able to prove as much of what you say as possible (n.b. I am not saying that you are not telling the truth - just that the railway will believe you more easily if there's evidence). So if you are already registered with Oyster, find your journey history and take a screenshot to prove that you started your journey at Brixton. If you aren't already registered then I think that you can do this after the journey and still find your journey history.

Obviously proving that you started in Brixton doesn't prove why you were travelling back from Stevenage to Hatfield - but it will show that you started in London and that the journey times are plausible.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We could do with a bit more information:

- What was your intended journey? You mention that you usually travel to St Albans, was there disruption that prevented you from doing this?
- When you arrived at Hatfield station did you tap out? If so, I assume you have paid the correct fare for your journey from Brixton to Hatfield
- When you arrived at Stevenage did you seek assistance from any staff about what you should do?

I expect you to receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and aski for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter.

I would tell them that your intended journey was from Brixton to Hatfield (mention disruption if there was any). Say tat you touched in at Brixton but inadvertently boarded the wrong train at Finsbury Park, which did not call at Hatfield. Upon arrival at the first station (Stevenage) you alighted and took a train back to Hatfield. If you sought advice from staff at Stevenage mention this as well. Say you tapped out at Hatfield (assuming you did) so you have paid for you journey from Brixton to Hatfield.

You might also wish to mention that you are happy to pay the outstanding fare for travelling via Stevenage.

Govia Thameslink Railway are unlikley to prosecute if you are seen to be proactive and engage with them. If what you tell us is correct they really shouldn't charge you anything extra and just close the case but I expect they will probably seek to charge you the outstanding fare plus an admin fee. This is known as an administrative settlement which might feel like a fine but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter when it arrived (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[spag23]

I know my normal station (St Albans) has contactless payment so thought others would work like this

But both St Albans (SAC) and Hatfield are outside all the Oyster Zones. So AFAIK the OP could never have tapped out at eithers' barriers.
Overshooting the intended destination through being forced onto an unfamiliar line (by engineering works?) would hopefully have been accepted by the southbound inspector. But not having a ticket even to the intended station understandably put the matter beyond his discretion.
Ironically the daily maximum fare the OP will have been charged for this unfinished contactless journey may exceed the actual fare due for Brixton > Hatfield.
This happened to my Essex-based son few years back, tapping in at Farringdon but only remembering half way back to St Albans (on a non-stop train) that SAC was beyond Oyster. We got round this (morally if not legally) by my buying him a Farringdon>SAC ticket from the SAC ticket office and handing it to him over the SAC barriers (fortunately no RPIs on his train!). So with the unfinished contactless as well, he paid well over the odds.

 

[Haywain]

But both St Albans (SAC) and Hatfield are outside all the Oyster Zones.

Both are within the contactless payment area though, and the OP could be referring to using contactless payment. It is actually going outside of the contactless payment area that is the problem here as it would not have been possible to have a valid ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2022 ==

Thank you and appreciate the help.

It would help if you could clarify whether you were using an Oyster card or a contactless payment card, and whether you tapped out, or were unable to do so, at Hatfield.

 

[spag23]

Both are within the contactless payment area though

Apologies; I hadn't realised that the zones were now different. That said, it's hard to find an industry web page that identifies the boundaries of the Contactless Scheme. I found one proposal map that includes not only Hatfield, but Stevenage.
If this is accurate, and the OP was contactless (versus Oyster), I can't see the problem wherever he was, in either direction, between those stations. He was in mid-journey either way, and hadn't yet passed any gates at any destination.

 

[Haywain]

I found one proposal map that includes not only Hatfield, but Stevenage.

Yes, that's Project Oval - the extension of contactless payment further out from London.

If this is accurate, and the OP was contactless (versus Oyster), I can't see the problem wherever he was, in either direction, between those stations.

As I said previously, he was outside of the contactless payment area, and outside of the Oyster area. Neither is allowed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies; I hadn't realised that the zones were now different. That said, it's hard to find an industry web page that identifies the boundaries of the Contactless Scheme. I found one proposal map that includes not only Hatfield, but Stevenage.
If this is accurate, and the OP was contactless (versus Oyster), I can't see the problem wherever he was, in either direction, between those stations. He was in mid-journey either way, and hadn't yet passed any gates at any destination.

Here’s the version on NR enquiries site, TfL have an almost identical one.
It differentiates oyster PAYG and contactless PAYG by light blue areas:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Rail-and-Tube-QR-Map-November-2022.pdf

 

[spag23]

So if the OP was contactless, he could have tapped out at Hatfield (despite what the RPI told him) and thus completed his disrupted journey as planned, albeit delayed. The barrier won't have known (or cared) he'd come from the wrong direction.

Several times I've encountered fellow passengers who - as overseas tourists - were distraught at our northbound train from London shooting past Mill Hill or Elstree. At SAC I led them to Platform 1 so they could bounce back to their intended destination. I'd have been horrified if an RPI had penalised them for this trivial error.

 

[qwertasda]

Hey, thanks for all the replies its really appreciated. Just to clear up a few things / give more details: (also sorry for formatting / replying was struggling with the quotes)

- What was your intended journey? You mention that you usually travel to St Albans, was there disruption that prevented you from doing this?
- When you arrived at Hatfield station did you tap out? If so, I assume you have paid the correct fare for your journey from Brixton to Hatfield
- When you arrived at Stevenage did you seek assistance from any staff about what you should do?

My ideal journey was going to be the Victoria line from Brixton to St Pancras and then the Bedford train to St Albans. However there was engineering work on the St Albans line out of St Pancras (I have a trainline app screenshot showing no trains on the day of travel). As a result I wanted to get to Hatfield (which is a station I haven't used as it would be close enough to Uber home from). I planned to go to Finsbury Park (via Victoria line) and then a train to Hatfield (I had screenshots of the trainline app showing this being my plan but the ticket inspector didn't seem to care). I didnt really think and thought all trains to Cambridge would stop at Hatfield but the one I got on went to Stevenage, so I got off at Stevenage and got on the 1st train to Hatfield.

At Hatfield I didn't tap out as I was let out by the ticket inspector (who stopped me on the STE -> HAT train). I had said to him that my plan was to tap out but he said I wasn't able to do this so he just let me out of the gates after taking my details etc. - I don't know Hatfield station so didn't look to see if there were contactless points

I didn't seek any assistance, I thought I could tap out with my contactless card and had I reached Hatfield and been unable to tap out I would have tried to ask for some help from someone working there. I wasn't trying to be dishonest just how I thought I was going to pay wasn't able to be done.

journey history and take a screenshot to prove that you started your journey at Brixton

I used my contactless card to tap in on the tube and don't have an Oyster account. So I am hoping that when I get charged for an incomplete journey from TfL I can get an invoice/receipt which shows that I tapped in at Brixton but not out on the day of my journey to corroborate my story.

Both are within the contactless payment area though, and the OP could be referring to using contactless payment

Thanks for your comments - I used my contactless card to tap in. Normally when I commute I buy a ticket from a Machine so that I can use my 26-30 Railcard, however given I wasn't that confident on my journey I opted to use my contactless rather than buying a paper ticket (as normally when I do this there are barriers etc to remind me to tap out/in - however there were none of these on my journey).

Also I managed to find that google maps tracked my location for the whole journey (creepy tech coming to save the day). So I have a log showing my whole route and giving the details of where and when I stopped. When being questioned I stated each time that I got on the train at Stevenage and my journey started in Brixton but this was never accepted.


Questions:
- Is it worth me going to Hatfield and trying to tap out/ pay today if I am able to do this or talk to someone?
- From what I'm reading the issue was I was outside of a contactless zone on a train, had I not gone on the wrong train and gone straight to Hatfield I would have done nothing wrong?
- Is it fare evasion to miss your stop and then try to correct this by going back on the same line? (Assuming no leaving the station)

 

[Haywain]

Is it worth me going to Hatfield and trying to tap out/ pay today if I am able to do this or talk to someone?

No, you will just get yourself anothe incomplete journey.

From what I'm reading the issue was I was outside of a contactless zone on a train, had I not gone on the wrong train and gone straight to Hatfield I would have done nothing wrong?

That's right. For the record, when the line to St Albans is closed for engineering work Thameslink will put on buses from Hatfield to St Albans so your journey could have been completed.

Is it fare evasion to miss your stop and then try to correct this by going back on the same line? (Assuming no leaving the station)

Yes, because you are travelling without a valid ticket (although there are some circumstances where this would not be a problem). If you had bought a ticket rather than using contactless, you might well have got no more than a telling off or a penalty fare but there's no point in dwelling on that.

 

[spag23]

The OP seems to have really strong evidence to corroborate his case that he simply overshot from being on an unfamiliar service, itself due to line closures. I would present this to Govia, along with evidence of having been charged the daily maximum for an uncompleted journey. And it's not as if he was challenged en route to Stevenage; he was intercepted on the remedial bounce-back to the correct station.
I see no point in going back to Hatfield. As Haywain says, a swipe would be way out of time, and would probably trigger another dispute. In any case the absence of a swipe out was entirely due the RPI. Maybe he realised it would have undermined his position.
Technically the OP was indeed travelling without a valid ticket. But when Govia are presented with the evidence, I'd hope they would apply a bit more discretion than the RPI could manage.

 

[danm14]

I assume the OP travelled on Saturday 3rd December given his description of the disruption.

The screenshots the OP supplied from Google Maps show him travelling on a train leaving Finsbury Park at 14:01.

The 14:04 train from Finsbury Park is scheduled to call at Hatfield (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C01501/2022-12-03)

Assuming he travelled on Saturday 3rd December, I would assume he intended to travel on the 14:04, but instead accidentally boarded the delayed 13:54 to Peterborough, which left Finsbury Park at 14:00 from the same platform as the 14:04 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W19750/2022-12-03)

The confusion where the passenger believes he boarded a "Cambridge train", but appears to have actually boarded a Peterborough train, leads me to question whether the digital signage on Platform 7 may have incorrectly showed the train in the platform as the 14:04 to Cambridge when it was actually the 13:54 to Peterborough?

I will also note that Thameslink have recently tweeted that "We currently have a fault with the journey planners and live departure boards not showing some trains; we're working with our industry partners to resolve. Please check back later for any updates."

If he actually travelled on Sunday 4th December, the same confusion may have occurred with boarding the delayed 13:48 to Cambridge (first stop Stevenage) leaving Platform 7 at 14:01 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P75004/2022-12-04), instead of the 14:09 to Cambridge (serving Hatfield) from Platform 7 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P73398/2022-12-04)

 

[Hadders]

There is no point in going back to Hatfield to try and tap out as it won’t work now.

It is unfortunate that you didn’t tap out at Hatfield as a consequence of this is that you will have been charged a maximum fare (unless it somehow ended up being auto-corrected by the system). I would obtain your journey history from the TfL website and make sure you include this in your response to their letter when it comes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Recently travelling home from London via tube and then changing to overground (Thameslink). I tapped in on the Victoria line (at Brixton) travelled to the station (Finnsbury Park) at which there were no barriers and I forgot to tap out, also in doing this I just assumed that my journey was still being tracked and could then tap out at my final destination.

For future travel I’m not sure why you mention here that you ’forgot to tap out‘ at Finsbury Park? Had you actually done that wouldn’t your contactless journey have been completed too early?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I used my contactless card to tap in on the tube and don't have an Oyster account. So I am hoping that when I get charged for an incomplete journey from TfL I can get an invoice/receipt which shows that I tapped in at Brixton but not out on the day of my journey to corroborate my story.

The way you do this is through an Oyster account. Follow this link here: https://accounts.tfl.gov.uk/Register?AppId=a3ac81d4-80e8-4427-b348-a3d028dfdbe7 (I think - I'm having some problems which may be down to my work network: the page to start from on the TfL site is https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/contactless-and-oyster-account)

 

[jon81uk]

I used my contactless card to tap in on the tube and don't have an Oyster account. So I am hoping that when I get charged for an incomplete journey from TfL I can get an invoice/receipt which shows that I tapped in at Brixton but not out on the day of my journey to corroborate my story.

Register at https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/ now or you can use the link there to see the last seven days travel on a card without registering.
Probably best to do that now before you can no longer access the journey history for the card.

 

[Haywain]

I assume the OP travelled on Saturday 3rd December given his description of the disruption.

The screenshots the OP supplied from Google Maps show him travelling on a train leaving Finsbury Park at 14:01.

The 14:04 train from Finsbury Park is scheduled to call at Hatfield (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C01501/2022-12-03)

Assuming he travelled on Saturday 3rd December, I would assume he intended to travel on the 14:04, but instead accidentally boarded the delayed 13:54 to Peterborough, which left Finsbury Park at 14:00 from the same platform as the 14:04 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W19750/2022-12-03)

The confusion where the passenger believes he boarded a "Cambridge train", but appears to have actually boarded a Peterborough train, leads me to question whether the digital signage on Platform 7 may have incorrectly showed the train in the platform as the 14:04 to Cambridge when it was actually the 13:54 to Peterborough?

I will also note that Thameslink have recently tweeted that "We currently have a fault with the journey planners and live departure boards not showing some trains; we're working with our industry partners to resolve. Please check back later for any updates."

If he actually travelled on Sunday 4th December, the same confusion may have occurred with boarding the delayed 13:48 to Cambridge (first stop Stevenage) leaving Platform 7 at 14:01 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P75004/2022-12-04), instead of the 14:09 to Cambridge (serving Hatfield) from Platform 7 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P73398/2022-12-04)

It's probably better to ask the OP what happened than to make assumptions and provide the narrative which may not coincide with the reality of the situation.

 

[Richardr]

That's right. For the record, when the line to St Albans is closed for engineering work Thameslink will put on buses from Hatfield to St Albans so your journey could have been completed.

Irrelevant to the issue here, but the recent Saturday closures have seen buses put on to Potters Bar station from St Albans.

 

[qwertasda]

Again thanks for all the advice everyone - I guess it's just waiting to get the letter and then taking it seriously with a well written letter and hoping that's enough. My last very loose question would be is do people know a rough ballpark for how often Govia settlement? I'm hoping its not a zero tolerance policy is all

For future travel I’m not sure why you mention here that you ’forgot to tap out‘ at Finsbury Park? Had you actually done that wouldn’t your contactless journey have been completed too early?

I think the reason for this is when I wrote this post due to what the ticket inspector said I thought that I was not able to tap-out at Hatfield. When in fact I was able to and the point the inspector was making is I was outside of the contactless zone by being in Stevenage.

Register at https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/ now or you can use the link there to see the last seven days travel on a card without registering.
Probably best to do that now before you can no longer access the journey history for the card.

The way you do this is through an Oyster account. Follow this link here: https://accounts.tfl.gov.uk/Register?AppId=a3ac81d4-80e8-4427-b348-a3d028dfdbe7 (I think - I'm having some problems which may be down to my work network: the page to start from on the TfL site is https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/contactless-and-oyster-account)

Thanks for the link! I've managed to find my tap in and the journey has had the price automatically corrected due to no tap out, (I have contacted TfL and asked to pay the full fare I would have been charged had I gone to Hatfield as currently it corrected itself to a lower amount). I just hope I can be fully correctly charged by the time I send my letter.

If he actually travelled on Sunday 4th December, the same confusion may have occurred with boarding the delayed 13:48 to Cambridge (first stop Stevenage) leaving Platform 7 at 14:01 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P75004/2022-12-04), instead of the 14:09 to Cambridge (serving Hatfield) from Platform 7 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P73398/2022-12-04)

Thank you for these links it's really helpful for me to see the trains and timings and will help to explain the actual journey I went on!

 

[WesternLancer]

Again thanks for all the advice everyone - I guess it's just waiting to get the letter and then taking it seriously with a well written letter and hoping that's enough. My last very loose question would be is do people know a rough ballpark for how often Govia settlement? I'm hoping its not a zero tolerance policy is all

Judging anecdotally by posts on here Govia often seem to settle.

Tho there is the different issue as to whether you should really have to under the circs you outline.

 

[some bloke]

Does anyone think, on the information @qwertasda has given,

- that there's more than a 1% chance that Govia will charge @qwertasda with an offence

or

- that there's less than a 30% chance of the case being closed once the Brixton to Hatfield fare is paid in full, with no admin fee?

 

[Hadders]

Judging anecdotally by posts on here Govia often seem to settle.

Tho there is the different issue as to whether you should really have to under the circs you outline.

I agree. GTR usually settle out of court as long as you co-operate with them.

Arguably they should drop the case but ultimately I suspect it'll come down to your appetite for a fight with them compared to paying them around £100 to make the matter go away.

 

[MikeWh]

For future travel I’m not sure why you mention here that you ’forgot to tap out‘ at Finsbury Park? Had you actually done that wouldn’t your contactless journey have been completed too early?

Yes and no. The validators within the station are controlled by LU and set to continuation exit. As long as the touch out at Hatfield was within the maximum journey time from Brixton it would be charged correctly.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes and no. The validators within the station are controlled by LU and set to continuation exit. As long as the touch out at Hatfield was within the maximum journey time from Brixton it would be charged correctly.

Ah, it’s difficult to keep up to date with changes at Finsbury Park.

Obviously not applicable with a contactless payment card but is a continuation exit still likely to be a potential problem on Oyster PAYG if checked subsequently by a TOC RPI?

 

[MikeWh]

Obviously not applicable with a contactless payment card

I think it is. Do you have evidence to the contrary? One to check out possibly.

but is a continuation exit still likely to be a potential problem on Oyster PAYG if checked subsequently by a TOC RPI?

Potentially yes. Especially if the TOC is GTR.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it is. Do you have evidence to the contrary? One to check out possibly.

Potentially yes. Especially if the TOC is GTR.

I was trying to mean that a contactless payment card couldn’t be inspected by a TOC RPI, so wouldn’t incur the problem I was trying to describe!

 

[MikeWh]

I was meaning a contactless payment card couldn’t be inspected by a TOC Rpi?

Ah yes, that's true.