Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[800001]

It will be CD/RA at Waterloo and Reading only. RO2s will only dispatch during degraded working. They will still be at platforms using PA and ensuring the safety of the platform / PTI. But it is correct they won’t be part of the dispatch of 701s

What is an RO2?

 

[Goldfish62]

701038 should be leaving Staines tomorrow (01/12).
Software updates are now complete for the current 701 fleet and (touch wood) issues have been sorted. Now awaiting driver training, so hopefully not too long to go now before they're introduced into service.

It's still there. I'm sure it's gained some further livery embellishment in the last few days.

 

[Elorith]

What is an RO2?

Rail Operator 2. Basically safety critical platform staff.

 

[165009]

It will be CD/RA at Waterloo and Reading only. RO2s will only dispatch during degraded working. They will still be at platforms using PA and ensuring the safety of the platform / PTI. But it is correct they won’t be part of the dispatch of 701s

What does CD/RA mean?

 

[fgwrich]

What does CD/RA mean?

Close Doors / Right Away

 

[Goldfish62]

Close Doors / Right Away

Activated by the platform staff.

Normally flashing CD sign below the signal followed by steady RA.

Even in non-DOO territory the RA sign exists, eg, Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[physics34]

I'd be surprised if station staff didn't despatch via RA/CD indicators at busy stations such as Waterloo and Clapham Junction.

CD/RA is coming in on the Southern side of Clapham Junction on Jan 3rd 2023, so no reason the SWR side wont eventually get it

 

[pompeyfan]

CD/RA is coming in on the Southern side of Clapham Junction on Jan 3rd 2023, so no reason the SWR side wont eventually get it

Isn’t the southern side to do with the Victoria re-signalling though?

 

[physics34]

Isn’t the southern side to do with the Victoria re-signalling though?

Yep, but if its viable over there it could be installed station wide

 

[TEW]

CD/RA is coming in on the Southern side of Clapham Junction on Jan 3rd 2023, so no reason the SWR side wont eventually get it

Clapham Junction will be self dispatch for 701s. It seems very unlikely any stations will go back to platform staff dispatching trains once they become self dispatch.

 

[Juniper Driver]

It's a good job the builders have a better grasp of measurements than some...!

Yes it's gone well so far.

 

[VWRO2]

It's still there. I'm sure it's gained some further livery embellishment in the last few days.

Not yet. We're keeping an eye out constantly but they're sneaky little b*****s. Some taggers were caught in the area earlier in the year, lineside, wearing full orange ppe!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

We're keeping an eye out constantly but they're sneaky little b*****s. Some taggers were caught in the area earlier in the year, lineside, wearing full orange ppe!

There was a time many years ago when rail industry orange PPE was specific, and identifiable as such, so as to call out any miscreants was fairly easy, provided they could be nabbed on the spot. Trouble is I suspect in today's world, with a multitude of contractors involved, any old orange tat could easily become passable on colour alone! I know what I'd do with these tagging scum, but it ain't printable in any public format....

 

[Towers]

There was a time many years ago when rail industry orange PPE was specific, and identifiable as such, so as to call out any miscreants was fairly easy, provided they could be nabbed on the spot. Trouble is I suspect in today's world, with a multitude of contractors involved, any old orange tat could easily become passable on colour alone! I know what I'd do with these tagging scum, but it ain't printable in any public format....

Officially, anyone doing P-way should have full orange on and, crucially, it should be company branded. But then, again aren't vans supposed to be branded too!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Haven't seen many of the five cars yet. I must say, I hoped they'd end up replaced by fifteen extra ten cars. With five car sets, you can bet they'll end up regularly running on their own in rush hour, like 458s/707s used to a lot before 707s started dropping out and being confined to Sheppertons in pairs.

Despite @HamworthyGoods and @JonathanH 's continued insisting that demand has not returned, the full and standing 8/10/12 car trains I have to endure on that network on a regular basis do not make me excited for 5 car sets.

 

[43096]

Haven't seen many of the five cars yet. I must say, I hoped they'd end up replaced by fifteen extra ten cars. With five car sets, you can bet they'll end up regularly running on their own in rush hour, like 458s/707s used to a lot before 707s started dropping out and being confined to Sheppertons in pairs.

Despite @HamworthyGoods and @JonathanH 's continued insisting that demand has not returned, the full and standing 8/10/12 car trains I have to endure on that network on a regular basis do not make me excited for 5 car sets.

Demand is barely above 50% of pre-pandemic in the peaks. This SWR user's morning train now has seats available all the way into Waterloo - previously it was full from Staines AND justified a relief running 8 minutes behind (which no longer runs). In the evening the service is 50% of what it was but the trains have the same loadings as before the pandemic, ergo only about 50% of previous loadings.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Demand is barely above 50% of pre-pandemic in the peaks. This SWR user's morning train now has seats available all the way into Waterloo - previously it was full from Staines AND justified a relief running 8 minutes behind (which no longer runs). In the evening the service is 50% of what it was but the trains have the same loadings as before the pandemic, ergo only about 50% of previous loadings.

This SWR’s user’s morning train normally has to leave people behind at Surbiton when it’s 8 vice 12 - which is often. I’m not denying demand maybe down but it’s not stopping trains being packed if not long enough. This is what annoys me, is that if someone on this forum comments on how busy their train is, another person (most likely one of the two users tagged previously) will disregard/invalidate that by saying the figures show demand has fallen. OK, that’s great, but the trains are still packed, particularly now reduced frequencies are permanent.

 

[43096]

This SWR’s user’s morning train normally has to leave people behind at Surbiton when it’s 8 vice 12 - which is often. I’m not denying demand maybe down but it’s not stopping trains being packed if not long enough. This is what annoys me, is that if someone on this forum comments on how busy their train is, another person (most likely one of the two users tagged previously) will disregard/invalidate that by saying the figures show demand has fallen. OK, that’s great, but the trains are still packed, particularly now reduced frequencies are permanent.

So SWR have matched supply with demand, then, if the trains are as busy as before the pandemic but are running fewer services.

Going back to the 701s, the 5-car sets are like-for-like replacements of the 707s.

 

[norbitonflyer]

This SWR’s user’s morning train normally has to leave people behind at Surbiton when it’s 8 vice 12 - which is often. I’m not denying demand maybe down but it’s not stopping trains being packed if not long enough. This is what annoys me, is that if someone on this forum comments on how busy their train is, another person (most likely one of the two users tagged previously) will disregard/invalidate that by saying the figures show demand has fallen. OK, that’s great, but the trains are still packed, particularly now reduced frequencies are permanent.

Not only reduced frequencies, but some services have gone completely - off-peak Brentford roundabouts for example.

And now the 456s have gone, many formerly 10-car services are now only eight. So for example the Kingston line, which used to have six ten car trains (60 cars) in the peaks, now has two eights and two tens (36 cars) - a 40% reduction.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not only reduced frequencies, but some services have gone completely - off-peak Brentford roundabouts for example.

And now the 456s have gone, many formerly 10-car services are now only eight. So for example the Kingston line, which used to have six ten car trains (60 cars) in the peaks, now has two eights and two tens (36 cars) - a 40% reduction.

But those in the know are stating that demand is reduced, so the fact that trains are still overcrowded is apparently irrelevant!

 

[Phil R]

But those in the know are stating that demand is reduced, so the fact that trains are still overcrowded is apparently irrelevant!

Indeed. I fear we are moving - if not already there - to a scenario where we will end up with similar overcrowding to before, but on shorter trains. Doesn't make it right from a customer perspective, whatever 50% or 70% comparisons to pre-pandemic get quoted.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So SWR have matched supply with demand, then, if the trains are as busy as before the pandemic but are running fewer services.

Going back to the 701s, the 5-car sets are like-for-like replacements of the 707s.

Supply is not matched with demand if people are being left behind.

RE this in bold, I wonder why they chose to do this when 707s usually operate in pairs on weekdays. I know it means they can run 5 cars on Sundays, but is that an enticing enough reason for not just ordering 15 more /0s and having a homogeneous fleet?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Supply is not matched with demand if people are being left behind.

RE this in bold, I wonder why they chose to do this when 707s usually operate in pairs on weekdays. I know it means they can run 5 cars on Sundays, but is that an enticing enough reason for not just ordering 15 more /0s and having a homogeneous fleet?

Stabling capacity is why the SWR is historically 8 car berths and some of these can’t be extended to 10 cars.

15 x 10 cars instead of 30 x 5 cars would have required considerable extra investment in new sidings.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Stabling capacity is why the SWR is historically 8 car berths and some of these can’t be extended to 10 cars.

15 x 10 cars instead of 30 x 5 cars would have required considerable extra investment in new sidings.

Ah I see, thank you

 

[Robert Carroll]

5-car units also allow for shorter trains on lightly-used services such as Ascot-Aldershot-Guildford (I forget whether this is still one service or two).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Stabling capacity is why the SWR is historically 8 car berths and some of these can’t be extended to 10 cars.

15 x 10 cars instead of 30 x 5 cars would have required considerable extra investment in new sidings

Spot on. A fixed 10 car scenario introduced on to a network designed historically for 4/8/12, will at some locations actually reduce stabling capacity, as in number of individual cars. I hear a whisper Staines may be getting a third 10 car road, but the physical space to achieve same will mean the loss of the fourth road completely.

 

[Snow1964]

701038 should be leaving Staines tomorrow (01/12).
Software updates are now complete for the current 701 fleet and (touch wood) issues have been sorted. Now awaiting driver training, so hopefully not too long to go now before they're introduced into service.

There is a key date of 30th May 2023, this is when the National Rail Contract with First MTR South Western expires (it was a 2 year contract, with 2 year option).

Some of the details are in the notes to 2021 accounts (they should be filing the 2022 accounts soon, and they will then be visible on companies House website). Link to Companies House

FIRST MTR SOUTH WESTERN TRAINS LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIRST MTR SOUTH WESTERN TRAINS LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

The reason why I suggest it is a key date, is things have slipped so far with 701s and staff training on them, I actually wonder if the current Operator would find it more profitable (or less of a loss) to actually not do the training and walk away in May. It’s not like the franchise is booming and making lots of money for them. They have kept the 458s going, so a few extra weeks from early 2023 to May 2023, then it’s someone else’s problem, might be easier option.

 

[swt_passenger]

5-car units also allow for shorter trains on lightly-used services such as Ascot-Aldershot-Guildford (I forget whether this is still one service or two).

It’s still split, Ascot to Aldershot and Guildford to Farnham are separate services, but I think it has been mostly a 450 operation since the 2x456s went off to form 10 car suburban trains.

 

[swr444]

Haven't seen many of the five cars yet. I must say, I hoped they'd end up replaced by fifteen extra ten cars. With five car sets, you can bet they'll end up regularly running on their own in rush hour, like 458s/707s used to a lot before 707s started dropping out and being confined to Sheppertons in pairs.

Despite @HamworthyGoods and @JonathanH 's continued insisting that demand has not returned, the full and standing 8/10/12 car trains I have to endure on that network on a regular basis do not make me excited for 5 car sets.

They need those 5 cars to be able to use the Kingston bay and other places like that

 

[Big Jumby 74]

They need those 5 cars to be able to use the Kingston bay and other places like that

As an example of the real decrease in stabling capacity that a (mostly) 10 car fixed formation scenario can have on a location not designed for same, is perhaps Wimbledon depot. Just to take one part of that location in to account, the sidings between (but not including) the shed and the District line at the Wimbledon station end of the depot. Many of these are quite short due to the (lack) of spare land available for siding extensions. I would hazard a guess that once all old suburban stock has gone and been replaced by 701 stock, the number of 'cars' (in fixed 5 or 10 car mode) able to stable in this one area alone will be in the region of about 30 cars less, than is the case with the 455/456/5 car 458 combinations, and to make things worse only two of the sidings in that group, will be able to accommodate a single 10 car fixed rake. This I imagine, will have been a major factor for the order for 701's being split between 5 and 10 car units.