Chathill stoppers - transfer to Transpennine Express?

[zwk500]

I should have been clearer in what I wrote. My issue with a 100mph emu for the service is line capactity in comparison with a 125mph class 802. If we are to run my hypothetical Chathill Local, does the 100 mph top speed make pathing harder than if the train can do 125mph? I am assuming yes, as the 802s are not slow to get moving.

Probably not, if you are stopping all stations along the way as the amount of time spent above 100mph would be minimal. I suspect a 700's acceleration from 0-100 would be a bigger benefit than the extra 125mph, although an 802 would do the job quite handily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably not, if you are stopping all stations along the way as the amount of time spent above 100mph would be minimal. I suspect a 700's acceleration from 0-100 would be a bigger benefit than the extra 125mph, although an 802 would do the job quite handily.

At that point it would make rather more sense for ScotRail to serve ScotGov's precious non-station, Reston, using their own EMU extended from the two-hourly Dunbar service they already operate, of course.

(Reston is weird. It's like the idea of saying "I know, we should build a station just outside Cheddington" )

 

[zwk500]

At that point it would make rather more sense for ScotRail to serve ScotGov's precious non-station, Reston, using their own EMU extended from the two-hourly Dunbar service they already operate, of course.

I'd personally serve Reston with an MX-5, given the likely passenger loading....

To flesh out a Chathill local, you have 10 miles from Newcastle to Cramlington, then stations about 5 miles apart to Chathill, before a 20 mile run to Berwick. 1 mile at 100mph = 36 seconds, 1 mile at 125mph = 28.8 seconds, so generously say you're saving 6 seconds a mile on average, or 30 seconds between each station. A 331 accelerates at 1.3m/s/s against an 802's 1m/s/s, so I'd go for the 331 for a hypothetical Newcastle-Chathill all stations.

 

[DanNCL]

If 100mph works and the cheapo wires can't support an EMU, then a 3-car Class 195 (if Northern operated) or 170 (if ScotRail operated) would do.

A 170 is too sluggish. A 195 could theoretically work.

I should have been clearer in what I wrote. My issue with a 100mph emu for the service is line capactity in comparison with a 125mph class 802. If we are to run my hypothetical Chathill Local, does the 100 mph top speed make pathing harder than if the train can do 125mph? I am assuming yes, as the 802s are not slow to get moving.

I am expecting within 2-3 years the power supply and robustness issues will have been dealt with and TPE will be all electric Newcastle to Edinburgh.

Not enough of the route is capable of speeds above 100mph for the lower top speed to be an issue. 185s used to run that way on diversion (back when TPE only used 185s and 350s) and managed to do the Newcastle - Edinburgh trip only a couple of minutes slower than what a 91+Mark 4 set can achieve.

Given current funding issues I’d be surprised if the power supply is sorted within 5 years.

At that point it would make rather more sense for ScotRail to serve ScotGov's precious non-station, Reston, using their own EMU extended from the two-hourly Dunbar service they already operate, of course.

(Reston is weird. It's like the idea of saying "I know, we should build a station just outside Cheddington" )

What are 385s like for power consumption? If they’re like the 80xs, it could be more hassle than it’s worth to use them further South than Dunbar.

 

[swt_passenger]

Given current funding issues I’d be surprised if the power supply is sorted within 5 years.

However, if you stop Don Coffey‘s most recent video, (a Newcastle to Edinburgh run), at the right place, you can see the power supply upgrade at Marshall Meadows is well underway. I wouldn’t be quite so pessimistic…

Don Coffey cab ride video discussion

The latest video has gone private - I was only halfway through! May I ask why? I had a very polite request to remove some of the detail surrounding the Gilberdyke Crossing incident. It wasn’t an instruction or a demand but I’ve agreed to do it. It will reappear on YouTube soon.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bevan Price]

I should have been clearer in what I wrote. My issue with a 100mph emu for the service is line capactity in comparison with a 125mph class 802. If we are to run my hypothetical Chathill Local, does the 100 mph top speed make pathing harder than if the train can do 125mph? I am assuming yes, as the 802s are not slow to get moving.

I am expecting within 2-3 years the power supply and robustness issues will have been dealt with and TPE will be all electric Newcastle to Edinburgh.

Trains will high maximum speeds often have slower acceleration rates than those limited to 100 mph, so can be more suitable for stopping trains with relatively short distances between stations. On the WCML, Class 350 can outpace 390s over short distances.

 

[RailWonderer]

An hourly service calling at the larger settlements would work and the other stations could just get a parliamentary call. As explained many times TPE have too many issues so involving them would be a bad idea. If not Northern with a 331 a Scotrail 385.

An IET would be overkill for the (I assume) very few who will use this service. I’m sure though if you made it hourly a few people would start using it instead of driving. And there is a path for it to not get in the way of an LNER, TPE or XC.

Cramlington, Morpeth, Pegswood, Almouth, and make Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill parliamentary.

A side note, would a station at Forest Hill be viable? Given the size of the vicinity it would have been a better build than Reston (maybe local politics isn’t interested)

 

[Killingworth]

A side note, would a station at Forest Hill be viable? Given the size of the vicinity it would have been a better build than Reston (maybe local politics isn’t interested)

Forest Hill? Are we thinking of Forest Hall which existed between 1864 and 1871; http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/forest_hall/index.shtml

A good idea to consider a station near there..

 

[swt_passenger]

Forest Hill? Are we thinking of Forest Hall which existed between 1864 and 1871; http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/forest_hall/index.shtml

A good idea to consider a station near there..

Ah, that’s the Blyth and Tyne Forest Hall, the ECML Forest Hall was open until 1958.

Although the latter is not at all likely I think a station nearer to the original Killingworth (namecheck ) would be a better choice. It would be better coverage of the overall area when you look at the fairly good nearby Metro provision, eg at Benton which is only a few hundred yards away from both Forest Hall locations..

 

[Killingworth]

Ah, that’s the Blyth and Tyne Forest Hall, the ECML Forest Hall was open until 1958.

Although the latter is not at all likely I think a station nearer to the original Killingworth (namecheck ) would be a better choice. It would be better coverage of the overall area when you look at the fairly good nearby Metro provision, eg at Benton which is only a few hundred yards away from both Forest Hall locations..

I should have known better, yes the NER Forest Hall is here; http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/forest_hall_ner/index.shtml

For Killingworth somewhere near the line I pictured about 1967, although it's mostly built up today. My current avatar is where the old station was positioned.

 

[swt_passenger]

I should have known better, yes the NER Forest Hall is here; http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/forest_hall_ner/index.shtml

For Killingworth somewhere near the line I pictured about 1967, although it's mostly built up today. My current avatar is where the old station was positioned.

My gran was a commuter between Alnwick and Newcastle for 20 years but retired just as the Alnwick branch closed. She knew all the old stations, and would point out the sites of Forest Hall, Killingworth, Annitsford, Stannington, Longhirst, Warkworth etc as we passed through going from Heaton to Alnwick for weekends at her place. I may well have passed through the open stations a few times but was only just 3 years old when they closed…


Now and again we get suggestions that “they” should reopen all the closed stations between Newcastle and Edinburgh. I hope people can see from the lists on the disused stations website how impractical that would be…

 

[Northumbriana]

SENRUG suggested new stations at Camperdown (next to Killingworth Way and those new houses) and where the metro line passes over the ECML with platforms on both lines. A Camperdown station might be well placed for the racecourse, Killingworth and park & ride traffic from Dudley, Annitsford, Hazelrigg and Wideopen. And a metro interchange would allow for onward connections to the airport, Gosforth and North Tyneside. I wonder though if instead a station beside Quorum might be better instead?

As for the rest of the line, I can see the reasoning for closing Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill for the greater good. But I think Widdrington is growing and Pegswood station seems ideally sited to be the centre of additional housing developments between the ECML and bypass. If the mainline itself could be diverted around the two then it might be worth extending the Morpeth local service to Widdrington.

But as far as Chathill goes, move it to Belford.

 

[Killingworth]

SENRUG suggested new stations at Camperdown (next to Killingworth Way and those new houses) and where the metro line passes over the ECML with platforms on both lines. A Camperdown station might be well placed for the racecourse, Killingworth and park & ride traffic from Dudley, Annitsford, Hazelrigg and Wideopen. And a metro interchange would allow for onward connections to the airport, Gosforth and North Tyneside. I wonder though if instead a station beside Quorum might be better instead?

As for the rest of the line, I can see the reasoning for closing Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill for the greater good. But I think Widdrington is growing and Pegswood station seems ideally sited to be the centre of additional housing developments between the ECML and bypass. If the mainline itself could be diverted around the two then it might be worth extending the Morpeth local service to Widdrington.

But as far as Chathill goes, move it to Belford.

As far as a terminal station is concerned Belford would be a logical answer as it's south of the Cragmill loops where trains currently reverse. Parking may be available around the old station site for outgoing users and it's less than a 5 mile walk by the Northumberland Coastal Path to Bamburgh and the Castle. The old railway station is over a mile from Belford itself. No additional rail mileage necessary. See the Disused Stations website which sets out both the history and some current thoughts; http://disused-stations.org.uk/b/belford/index.shtml

Looking at the maps and aerial views the area around Killingworth has changed almost out of recognition since I cycled round that area over 60 years ago. Lots more housing and industry. How many would use an infrequent rail service is questionable when a fairly good bus network already exists.

 

[Northumbriana]

As far as a terminal station is concerned Belford would be a logical answer as it's south of the Cragmill loops where trains currently reverse. Parking may be available around the old station site for outgoing users and it's less than a 5 mile walk by the Northumberland Coastal Path to Bamburgh and the Castle. The old railway station is over a mile from Belford itself. No additional rail mileage necessary. See the Disused Stations website which sets out both the history and some current thoughts; http://disused-stations.org.uk/b/belford/index.shtml

Looking at the maps and aerial views the area around Killingworth has changed almost out of recognition since I cycled round that area over 60 years ago. Lots more housing and industry. How many would use an infrequent rail service is questionable when a fairly good bus network already exists.

A rail journey would be much faster than the bus though but frequency would need to be attractive, which is never going to happen on the ECML as it currently is. Maybe a metro or tram-train line alongside the ECML to Killingworth would be practical.

 

[swt_passenger]

A rail journey would be much faster than the bus though but frequency would need to be attractive, which is never going to happen on the ECML as it currently is. Maybe a metro or tram-train line alongside the ECML to Killingworth would be practical.

With all the ideas for extra Metro branches via Pelaw Junction, maybe we need a balancing branch on the north of the network. [Checks we‘re in speculation…]. How about South Gosforth to Killingworth direct via West Moor.


But more seriously though, I’ve thought for a long time that in order to meet everyone’s wish list, including a fully developed Northumberland Line running at a Metro type frequency, the only long term answer is reinstating the fourth track through to Heaton, and then adding new third and fourth tracks from Heaton depot to Benton Junction. So hopefully a wide enough corridor has been reserved north of the Coast Rd. That was all open fields both sides when I were a lad…

 

[Northumbriana]

When Newcastle Airport were looking into a branch off the ECML from Camperdown to the airport via Gosforth Park I assume four tracking from Newcastle to the junction would have been part of the plan also. So it might be possible to do that. Although I expect the difficulty involved is why that plan changed to connecting to the metro line at Benton instead. Pity because you could have a service which runs fast to Station Road (Forest Hall), West Moor, Camperdown, Dudley and Cramlington every 15 minutes. And 2tph running fast straight to Cramlington, Morpeth and Pegswood.

An additional thought, maybe fast trains should be diverted onto a new line from Killingworth to Alnmouth. And a new line can connect Pegswood and Ashington so local services run on a loop from Newcastle - Cramlington - Morpeth - Ashington - South Newsham - Newcastle (and vice versa) with a connection maintained through Widdrington for freight.

1. LNER Newcastle - Alnmouth (1tp2h) - Edinburgh 1tph
2. LNER Newcastle - Berwick - Edinburgh 1tph
3. XC Newcastle - Alnmouth - Berwick - Dunbar - Edinburgh 1tph
4. TPE/SR Newcastle - Alnmouth - Belford - Berwick - Reston - Dunbar - East Linton - Musselburgh - Edinburgh 1tp2h
5. LUMO Newcastle - Alnmouth - Edinburgh 5tpd

Local

1. Newcastle - Manors - Camperdown - Cramlington - Morpeth - Pegswood - Ashington - Bedlington - Bebside - Newsham - Seaton Delaval - Northumberland Park - Manors - Newcastle (3tph both directions)

 

[Killingworth]

When Newcastle Airport were looking into a branch off the ECML from Camperdown to the airport via Gosforth Park I assume four tracking from Newcastle to the junction would have been part of the plan also. So it might be possible to do that. Although I expect the difficulty involved is why that plan changed to connecting to the metro line at Benton instead. Pity because you could have a service which runs fast to Station Road (Forest Hall), West Moor, Camperdown, Dudley and Cramlington every 15 minutes. And 2tph running fast straight to Cramlington, Morpeth and Pegswood.

An additional thought, maybe fast trains should be diverted onto a new line from Killingworth to Alnmouth. And a new line can connect Pegswood and Ashington so local services run on a loop from Newcastle - Cramlington - Morpeth - Ashington - South Newsham - Newcastle (and vice versa) with a connection maintained through Widdrington for freight.

1. LNER Newcastle - Alnmouth (1tp2h) - Edinburgh 1tph
2. LNER Newcastle - Berwick - Edinburgh 1tph
3. XC Newcastle - Alnmouth - Berwick - Dunbar - Edinburgh 1tph
4. TPE/SR Newcastle - Alnmouth - Belford - Berwick - Reston - Dunbar - East Linton - Musselburgh - Edinburgh 1tp2h
5. LUMO Newcastle - Alnmouth - Edinburgh 5tpd

Local

1. Newcastle - Manors - Camperdown - Cramlington - Morpeth - Pegswood - Ashington - Bedlington - Bebside - Newsham - Seaton Delaval - Northumberland Park - Manors - Newcastle (3tph both directions)

Lovely idea, rather expensive and overlooks longer distance direct travel from Morpeth to Edinburgh, London, Leeds, Bristol etc.

That said elements of these ideas may stand closer examination, bearing in mind that there are relatively sparsely populated areas near the stations. Only Morpeth and Alnmouth currently have significant station car parking. Stations like Pegswood and Widdrington are near housing but have virtually no nearby parking. Morpeth station is not very near the town centre and Alnwick is some distance from Alnmouth, population 445 at 2011 Census.

 

[Northumbriana]

Lovely idea, rather expensive and overlooks longer distance direct travel from Morpeth to Edinburgh, London, Leeds, Bristol etc.

That said elements of these ideas may stand closer examination, bearing in mind that there are relatively sparsely populated areas near the stations. Only Morpeth and Alnmouth currently have significant station car parking. Stations like Pegswood and Widdrington are near housing but have virtually no nearby parking. Morpeth station is not very near the town centre and Alnwick is some distance from Alnmouth, population 445 at 2011 Census.

Is there much demand from Morpeth passengers to those cities? I'd have thought most demand would be met by changing at Newcastle? I can walk from Morpeth town centre to the station in about ten minutes, it seems pretty close. Perhaps it would be viewed as an easier walk if the walk didn't involve crossing over busy roads and a narrow path across the bridge?

But if car parking is an issue that hypothetical new line could have a station by the A1 with large car park next to Morpeth and Alnwick.

Or if a Morpeth cut off is too much then maybe smaller cut offs bypassing Cramlington but rejoining the ECML before Stannington and a Widdrington cut off would be more viable. Just to allow more local trains to call at Cramlington and prevent any tailbacks at Widdrington at the level crossing.

 

[beadnell]

Chathill is the local station for Beadnell, Seahouses, Bamburgh and Belford. The only reason it is not used heavily is because the service is terrible. If there was a bus service twinned with a fast service to Newcastle and/or London it would be very heavily used.

 

[Killingworth]

Chathill is the local station for Beadnell, Seahouses, Bamburgh and Belford. The only reason it is not used heavily is because the service is terrible. If there was a bus service twinned with a fast service to Newcastle and/or London it would be very heavily used.

How often and when would any extra service/s need to run to attract enough extra passengers to the railway to justify it?

Alnmouth 285k, Berwick 590k, Chathill under 2k passengers in the most recent year. Note how large Morpeth and Berwick's local catchment areas are compared with Chathill. Most extra passengers for Chathill are likely to be extracted from Alnmouth but I'd agree there'd be some. Heavily used I'd doubt.

Experience elsewhere would suggest minimal use of a bus link, not least because the timekeeping of infrequent rural bus and rail routes makes it too likely to leave users stranded. Chathill is a lovely little station (pictured in February below) and a dedicated bus shuttle that waited for trains might work on a few days in the year.

However if TPE had flexibility for an extra stop it might be a more marketable option than either Pegswood or Widdrington that slipped into their provisional timetables.

Maybe a few heritage specials might like to use it?

 

[Class142sbad]

Senrug have on their website a page about this part of the mainline and the local service. As for the bus services, I think that is the only real way to serve these stations to the nearby towns. As much as it would be nice to open up new rail lines to these towns I don't think it would make sense and the cost to benefit ratios would be stupid.

As for TPE taking over the Chathill flyer, It might make sense on paper with the already existing semi fasts and the low usage of the stations. but with all of the problems TPE have been having recently, I don't think it would be great. Senrug have been wanting an hourly local from Newcastle to Berwick calling all stations, with a new station at Belford (Parkway) for Lindisfarne. It just makes sense to keep with Northern for the foreseeable.

Senrug North of Morpeth local train service: https://www.senrug.co.uk/NorthOfMorpethLocalServices.php

Senrug Northumberland Coast Report: https://www.senrug.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/22-12-Newsletter-39.pdf
(The bit about the coast is on page 3)

 

[Narrowgauge725]

The latest on the campaign https://www.northumberlandgazette.c...l-for-more-trains-to-stop-at-chathill-4086123

 

[wilbers]

Article begins "Hundreds of high speed trains pass through every day on journeys to and from Scotland.". Overegging it "somewhat" to say the least.