Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Sam 76]

Do we know when this is going to go back to ASLEF/members? Seems extremely unlikely any 777 services will go live before year-end now.

With the strikes next week also I imagine it will be well into January at the earliest now. One day they shall come maybe

 

[8H]

The battery unit has done 83 miles without charging in tests, brings in Helsby, Wrexham, Preston, Wigan & Crewe into range if sustainable daily.

#futureofmobility #batterystorage #greenmobility #railtransport | Joaquim Font Canyelles

The hybrid train that run 135 km with only battery traction… Our new Merseytravel Class777 IPEMU (Independent Powered Electrical Multiple Unit) proved its strength after running 135 km fully loaded and without external current supply, which is much longer than we expected. This unit is an...

www.linkedin.com

“Our new Merseytravel Class777 IPEMU (Independent Powered Electrical Multiple Unit) proved its strength after running 135 km fully loaded and without external current supply, which is much longer than we expected.’ via Joaquim Font Canyelles of #Stadler on @LinkedInUK”

 

[Skie]

They still have to account for battery degradation over the life of the batteries but that is an amazing result. Stick some charging infrastructure at Wrexham Central and have Merseyrail run the 2tph with the purchase of some more 777/1's

A round trip of 55 miles might be pushing it after a few years in service, but I guess they could introduce charging infrastructure after beginning service if they have 28miles of spare range to play with.

 

[EngFocus]

The battery unit has done 83 miles without charging in tests, brings in Helsby, Wrexham, Preston, Wigan & Crewe into range if sustainable daily.

“Our new Merseytravel Class777 IPEMU (Independent Powered Electrical Multiple Unit) proved its strength after running 135 km fully loaded and without external current supply, which is much longer than we expected.’ via Joaquim Font Canyelles of #Stadler on @LinkedInUK”

I was surprised by this, when 002 was demonstrated at Rail Live they were saying the range would be 20 miles with the single battery rafts they've gone for.

Merseytravel were thinking of going for 2 battery rafts, but decided 1 was sufficient and wouldn't impact the performance of the units.

As the Wrexham-Bidston line is my local line I've been trying to follow the battery trials. Merseytravel has decided that all 777s should be fitted with batteries so that should improve the business case for extensions beyond the 3rd rail network.

 

[Skie]

I was surprised by this, when 002 was demonstrated at Rail Live they were saying the range would be 20 miles with the single battery rafts they've gone for.

Merseytravel were thinking of going for 2 battery rafts, but decided 1 was sufficient and wouldn't impact the performance of the units.

As the Wrexham-Bidston line is my local line I've been trying to follow the battery trials. Merseytravel has decided that all 777s should be fitted with batteries so that should improve the business case for extensions beyond the 3rd rail network.

002 was a test bed that had batteries retrofitted at a lower capacity just to prove it could work and that it was worth the investment, and to allow Stadler to figure out tricky issues like cooling. The full IPEMU was always going to be a more finished product with better range. Though perhaps nobody expected quite this range!

I think Merseytravel would like all units to be fitted, but it’s not happening unless someone stumps up the cash for it. There has been some confused reporting about this and depot batteries, as well as a grant letter from the dft making it all a bit of a mess. David Powell was kind enough to correct the record a few pages back though.

 

[EngFocus]

002 was a test bed that had batteries retrofitted at a lower capacity just to prove it could work and that it was worth the investment, and to allow Stadler to figure out tricky issues like cooling. The full IPEMU was always going to be a more finished product with better range. Though perhaps nobody expected quite this range!

I think Merseytravel would like all units to be fitted, but it’s not happening unless someone stumps up the cash for it. There has been some confused reporting about this and depot batteries, as well as a grant letter from the dft making it all a bit of a mess. David Powell was kind enough to correct the record a few pages back though.

I did wonder about the claim that all 777s would be fitted batteries. But that was said by Cllr Liam Robinson at a recent WBRUA AGM.
Ah, so they'll all have small batteries for last mile, so he wasn't wrong.

80 miles would be enough to get from Bidston to Wrexham and back, but in reality I think the units would still need a top up at the Wrexham end. I wonder how far the talks between Stadler and Vivarail had got about developing a rapid charging system for 777s, based on Vivarail's system.

 

[Ribbleman]

I did wonder about the claim that all 777s would be fitted batteries. But that was said by Cllr Liam Robinson at a recent WBRUA AGM.
Ah, so they'll all have small batteries for last mile, so he wasn't wrong.

80 miles would be enough to get from Bidston to Wrexham and back, but in reality I think the units would still need a top up at the Wrexham end. I wonder how far the talks between Stadler and Vivarail had got about developing a rapid charging system for 777s, based on Vivarail's system.

All of the fleet have what are being called shunt batteries. The principal reason being so that the 3rd rail can be removed from depots and sidings once the 507/508 fleet has finally been withdrawn, thus improving safety for staff on the ground. In addition, 7 of the units will have large batteries for running beyond the current limits of the 3rd rail, initially to Headbolt Lane. Extensions elsewhere would require further sets to be fitted and almost certainly more to be ordered from Stadler from the 60 agreed as options.
Conversations have already taken place about services to Wrexham at the instigation of the Welsh Assembly Government. Liam Robinson told me that Merseytravel would be prepared to lease some battery fitted sets to TfW.

 

[geoffk]

To be fair many of the Airbus numbers have also been used...310, 320, 350, 380

Does seem quite a random jump from the other Stadler units 745 and 755

not as daft as having bus routes to airports numbered 747, 757 etc.

 

[Ribbleman]

not as daft as having bus routes to airports numbered 747, 757 etc.

Merseytravel were given a choice of several numbers by the Rolling Stock Library and picked 777.

 

[DJH1971]

Safe to assume they will not be entering service until the new year at the earliest now.

 

[OutdoorM]

Safe to assume they will not be entering service until the new year at the earliest now.

Echo running with a story that 777s not likely to be running this year - see link below

As its the Echo, the delay is nothing to do with union obstinacy

New Merseyrail trains will not start rolling out this year

It had been hoped the first of the new trains would welcome passengers before 2023

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Bertie the bus]

Nice to see Brexit getting a mention in the long list of excuses. Just a pity the war in Ukraine and Qatar's laws on homosexuality have been missed off. Obviously none of the delay has anything to do with Liverpool Combined Authority in any way whatsoever.

 

[yorkie]

Another reminder that this is a non-speculative traction & rolling stock thread to discuss updates regarding Merseyail 777s; any posts of a speculative nature belong in the Speculative Discussion section please.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Echo running with a story that 777s not likely to be running this year.

As its the Echo, the delay is nothing to do with union obstinacy

Echo should be challenging the LCA over this ongoing failure to deliver for the people of Liverpool who get a surcharge on their council tax to fund this modernisation. Yes covid has had an impact but that reason has been and gone but no transparency from LCA about what their plan is to deliver the trains. The LCA appears to go out of its way to avoid saying anything about the delays and suppress any challenge to what is happening. Also i see tehy say Headbolt to open in 2023 but they won't have any trains in service at this rate.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Echo should be challenging the LCA over this ongoing failure to deliver for the people of Liverpool who get a surcharge on their council tax to fund this modernisation. Yes covid has had an impact but that reason has been and gone but no transparency from LCA about what their plan is to deliver the trains. The LCA appears to go out of its way to avoid saying anything about the delays and suppress any challenge to what is happening. Also i see tehy say Headbolt to open in 2023 but they won't have any trains in service at this rate.

They clearly think we are all stupid or have such contempt for us that they think just reading the Metro and citing random excuses that happen to be in the news will suffice. Covid might have had an impact in the overall project life cycle but the current delay is from their stated introduction of Autumn this year. Covid, Brexit, flooding at a factory which completed the entire order several months ago, etc have not caused this latest delay.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They clearly think we are all stupid or have such contempt for us that they think just reading the Metro and citing random excuses that happen to be in the news will suffice. Covid might have had an impact in the overall project life cycle but the current delay is from their stated introduction of Autumn this year. Covid, Brexit, flooding at a factory which completed the entire order several months ago, etc have not caused this latest delay.

ive watched a few webcasts of LCA meetings and i find it bizarre that councillors just accept what is happening and never push for more definitive answers

 

[Sam 76]

ive watched a few webcasts of LCA meetings and i find it bizarre that councillors just accept what is happening and never push for more definitive answers

I see the BBC seem to be saying they have said the strikes and the cold weather is what’s held them back. But I didn’t think staff training has even started

 

[Bletchleyite]

ive watched a few webcasts of LCA meetings and i find it bizarre that councillors just accept what is happening and never push for more definitive answers

The answer is obvious, isn't it? The DOO tiff.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I see the BBC seem to be saying they have said the strikes and the cold weather is what’s held them back. But I didn’t think staff training has even started

oh yes and just palm off the media who just take what there given rather than investigate and challenge properly

 

[childwallblues]

ive watched a few webcasts of LCA meetings and i find it bizarre that councillors just accept what is happening and never push for more definitive answers

Mayor Rotherham and his cohorts seem to think that the bigger priority is bus franchising.

 

[Sam 76]

oh yes and just palm off the media who just take what there given rather than investigate and challenge properly

Well this is it. For me the delay isn’t what is frustrating it’s not knowing the real reasons why.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well this is it. For me the delay isn’t what is frustrating it’s not knowing the real reasons why.

The reason is the DOO battle. Does anyone not know that?

 

[AlexNL]

This has been playing for so long now that the details have somewhat escaped me.

Is my memory correct that...

1- The trains were originally ordered with DOO in mind, and that the role of guards would go away on Merseyrail altogether?
2- That led to a long-running dispute between Merseytravel and the RMT, with ASLEF siding with the RMT here, which eventually got resolved by commitment to keep the guards on the train?
3- Which needed significant changes to be made to the already ordered rolling stock, as this wasn't designed with guarded operation in mind?
4- But the solution implemented the driver being fully in control of the doors anyway, only giving the guard a way to inhibit a local door while they perform their duties?
5- A way of working which got voted down by ASLEF members?

 

[RHolmes]

Mayor Rotherham and his cohorts seem to think that the bigger priority is bus franchising.

The reality is that bus franchising is a bigger priority for the majority of the LCR population than the 777 introduction. Most people living within the LCR do not live on a merseyrail route, but do have bus provision.

Assuming by your username you must be aware of the severe cuts and the ever decreasing quality of bus services in and around Childwall over the last 10 years. From the collapse of more than half of Merseyside’s independent operators to frequency cuts on routes such as the 6, 61, 79, 79c and 81/A

The reason is the DOO battle. Does anyone not know that?

Not exclusively.

There’s been other issues in the mix ranging from power supply issues (quite important), platform extensions as well as the usual issues that a new train brings such as snag lists and software issues

 

[Parjon]

This has been playing for so long now that the details have somewhat escaped me.

Is my memory correct that...

1- The trains were originally ordered with DOO in mind, and that the role of guards would go away on Merseyrail altogether?

Yes

2- That led to a long-running dispute between Merseytravel and the RMT, with ASLEF siding with the RMT here, which eventually got resolved by commitment to keep the guards on the train?

It wasn't actually that long running. The entire procurement went through without a peep. It was only raised as an issue when the trains started to land.

3- Which needed significant changes to be made to the already ordered rolling stock, as this wasn't designed with guarded operation in mind?

Yes

4- But the solution implemented the driver being fully in control of the doors anyway, only giving the guard a way to inhibit a local door while they perform their duties

Dont think so. Believe driver opens doors, guard closes.

5- A way of working which got voted down by ASLEF members?

If people on here are to be believed yes.

It's also ironic that the new T&W trains are basically the same unit just with two extra doors and 1500v power supply. These will operate DOO from day one.

 

[Sam 76]

The reason is the DOO battle. Does anyone not know that?

Well yes unofficially we know that on here my comment was more so the general public know? As it’s more the excuses of covid that get floated around rather than the actual issue

 

[mcnw35282]

Echo running with a story that 777s not likely to be running this year.

As its the Echo, the delay is nothing to do with union obstinacy

No-one cares.

The current fleet is managing adequately...with the odd hiccup here and there (which is to be expected from 40+ year old trains). Your average punter who just wants to nip into town couldn't give a toss about the 'shiny new trains'. As long as A train turns up, that'll do for the time being.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not exclusively.

There’s been other issues in the mix ranging from power supply issues (quite important), platform extensions as well as the usual issues that a new train brings such as snag lists and software issues

delivery of which by NR was way behind schedule and has cost sheds loads more than the original budget NR gave LCA

 

[L401CJF]

No-one cares.

The current fleet I'd managing ok. Most people couldn't give a toss about a shiny new train. As long as A train turns up, that'll do me.

The current fleet will just keep going forever until they literally rot themselves to pieces (if you keep up with the TLC).

Speaking to a guard who works there who's a friend of mine he confirms the original drivers offer was rejected and a new one has been balloted, results to be posted in Jan Apparently.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It wasn't actually that long running. The entire procurement went through without a peep. It was only raised as an issue when the trains started to land.

That is totally untrue. The strikes started in March 2017 (the first unit didn't arrive until January 2020) and the dispute with the RMT was only finally resolved this summer. Most people would agree strikes lasting 18 months and a dispute lasting over 5 years is long running.