The part of the S Taylor and Sons site that is directly infringing on the railway is not much more than a shed. I'm sure it could be demolished without too much in the way of extra costs and without the issues described about running it over Pickering Beck. Given how much new railways cost, a faster bus from Malton to connect with the NYMR is the best that will happen until railway inflation is sorted out(if ever)
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Would Closed Rail Links In England Reopen?
- Thread starter Class08Shunter
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Where is the justification to spend £150m+ on half a railway in this though? You can already take a bus from Malton to Pickering for less than £5 today. https://www.checkmybus.co.uk/malton/pickering. For less than 0.1% of the cost of a railway you could integrate the Bus times and fares into the railway system and see what traffic there is.
Possibly, but the long-term effect may be terminal. It's a carpentry shop so any suitable site identified is likely to be on the edge of town, and the costs associated in such a move are hefty.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
How do Taylor and Sons feel about losing their warehouse which is, presumably, rather fundamental to the functioning of their business?
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
If you demolished it you would have to give them compensation. Give them a lot of money or build them a new place elsewhere in Pickering.
Yes there would obviously need to be compensation, I'm just trying to say that it would be in the hundreds of thousands, and not the millions given what is being demolished.
Moving a business could easily cost them more than £1m pounds, probably £2 or £3m, and then you've got the legal fees to add on top.
It would not require the entire buisness to be demolished, only one of the buildings that would probably be around £150,000 to physically replace. So total compensation would be around 3 times that plus £150,000 again in administration and legal fees. Total £600,000
Right, so most of the business would be in one place but you'd relocate the warehouse elsewhere? I think they'd want rather more compensation for permanently impairing their business!
There is definetly space around the site for the warehouse to be relocated to, meaning that there would be one part of the compensation for the lost physical building, one for the land and one for the operational disruption.
Yep, it's railway inflation. NR's procurement system has become so complex a simple platform costs more than a small housing development... Let alone an entire line
Not the procurement system per se, just privatisation has forced a true reckoning of costs to be spelt out in the project codes. Absolutely everything involved in opening a new line is now charged to the project, which historically wasn't always the case. The Fragmentation is what's been killer, if you're looking for a boogeyman.
It could be a lot more efficient, don't get me wrong, but we're talking 5% max reductions from current prices, not 50%.
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
All this stuff about S. Taylor & Sons Ltd will never happen. They will stay where they are and they can keep their business going for the future.
Just the laws of physics to break as well…
It would be the railway infringing on S Taylor & Sons…
Get someone else to do it then, and she how much cheaper it is.
In other news, almost every organisation that has tried this has ended up going to NR when they realised they couldn’t do it any cheaper…
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
Why would you tell them something if nothing is ever going to happen?
tbtc
Veteran Member
I wonder if anyone at S Taylor & Sons googles the company and finds this thread… could be a bit weird for them if they find various crayon-based suggestions for their premises!
No surprise that there’s some SELRAP involvement/ overlap, given that they are the gold standard at disingenuous presentations for reopening suggestions (remember, keep pretending that there’s no Copy Pit line, so that you can suggest that the “250,000” people in East Lancashire have no public transport to West Yorkshire!)
Re Rail Price Inflation, i hold two contradictory views in my head. Firstly, it seems crazy that a platform on the Barton branch cost over a million pounds (at a station with about the others a day). But secondly, comparisons with costs in BR days are meaningless because projects are accounted for honestly these days, rather than all of the 1980s fudges - e.g. simply withdraw all evening/weekend services for six months and you don’t have to worry about compensating anyone - similarly, construction standards have significantly changed, so anyone quoting the cost of something that BR put together with some sticky-backed plastic and egg boxes can be ignored
No surprise that there’s some SELRAP involvement/ overlap, given that they are the gold standard at disingenuous presentations for reopening suggestions (remember, keep pretending that there’s no Copy Pit line, so that you can suggest that the “250,000” people in East Lancashire have no public transport to West Yorkshire!)
Re Rail Price Inflation, i hold two contradictory views in my head. Firstly, it seems crazy that a platform on the Barton branch cost over a million pounds (at a station with about the others a day). But secondly, comparisons with costs in BR days are meaningless because projects are accounted for honestly these days, rather than all of the 1980s fudges - e.g. simply withdraw all evening/weekend services for six months and you don’t have to worry about compensating anyone - similarly, construction standards have significantly changed, so anyone quoting the cost of something that BR put together with some sticky-backed plastic and egg boxes can be ignored
Halifaxlad
Established Member
You may wish to retract this earlier comments of yours reposted below...
Because electrifying Salterhebble tunnel will cost in the tens of millions and its only about 80 meters!
You do realize that would involve crossing Transpennine/NPR services ? There is a reason why the existing Penistone line is to remain segregated!
Sometimes its amazing how Northern Powerhouse Rail got onto the drawing board!
Which one sorry?
I said it'd help, not that it was affordable. We are talking about reopening lines costing several hundred million, after all.
Where are you crossing them? Ravensthorpe is to be grade-separated with the Fasts from Dewsbury flying over to take the south side of the formation. Hudds-leeds traffic would be entirely separate from Bradford-Wakefield traffic.
I don't deny Yorkshire needs investment, just that this 1 small curve isn't the right answer.
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
What would be better if Pickering To Malton reopened? A new station south of Pickering to be the terminus of the line or the line connecting to the NYMR? What I think would be alright is a new station being made to the south but still a link connecting to the NYMR. Probably a Northern train would run from Malton and Terminate at Pickering South while NYMR Trains would run from their Pickering Station to Malton.
Advantages Of A New Station:
Avoids problems with traffic at the Ropery Road and Hungate.
Advantages Of The Line Connecting To The NYMR:
Through Trains To Whitby.
Advantages Of A New Station:
Avoids problems with traffic at the Ropery Road and Hungate.
Advantages Of The Line Connecting To The NYMR:
Through Trains To Whitby.
Definitely not through to the NYMR because S Taylor and sons would lose some of the land they worked hard to acquire.
Perhaps if we started from the beginning:
| Option | Costs | Benefits | Negative issues |
| Malton-Pickering NYMR | £200m+, Probably £300m (Very High) | Connects small town to national network allows through trains to Whitby (possibly) Allows railtours on/off NYMR Journey times from York competitive/comparable to bus | Requires substantial demolition of homes and businesses Requires 3 level crossings requires infrastructure interventions at Malton Requires major intervention in NYMR to permit through trains Requires capacity intervention on Whitby branch to get through trains |
| Malton-Pickering (Outgang) | £150-250m+ (very high) | Connects small town to national network Journey times from York competitive to bus | Requires substantial earthworks Requires level crossings or bridges Requires infrastructure interventions at Malton Requires small modification to road infrastructure for access |
| Malton-Pickering South (Black Bull) | £100-180m (Very high) | Connects pub and caravan park to national network Rebuilds some previously closed lines | Requires connecting bus/1.5 mile walk Requires infrastructure changes at Malton Requires changes to road infrastructure for bus/parking |
| Run bus from Malton (either existing or dedicated), integrated times and fares | ~£0.1-0.25m (Low) | Much lower costs No rail changes required Investment in bus infrastructure of wider benefit for Malton and Pickering | Requires small cost to integrate fares and times in Requires small cost in marketing Requires small investment in bus infrastructure at both ends. |
Why don't we trial if there is public transport demand by integrating the Malton-Pickering bus into rail timetables. It is worth pointing out the bus is timetabled for 15-20 minutes, and the likely travel time from Malton to Pickering town by rail would be 8-10 minutes. Travel time to a Pickering parkway at the Blackbull would be about 6-7 minutes, but the bus would then be a 5-10 minute wait and further 5-10 minute journey.
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
Like @Brubulus said on Page 5, to avoid S, Taylor & Sons Ltd losing their business what could happen is the railway curve around S, Taylor & Sons Ltd but like @zwk500 said on Page 5 the foundations would be destroyed by vibrations so you would need to strengthen the foundations which would cost a bit of money.
It couldn’t, unless the line was to have track and rolling stock supplied by Intamin.
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
Doubt Intamin will supply anything. The only solution is to strengthen the foundations.
We're going round in circles. @Class08Shunter said earlier it wouldn't go through the town, but terminate on the south side, so why are we now talking about squeezing the railway through the town again?
I’m sorry you’re in dreamland.
There is no way a railway could be built through there without demolishing Lidl or S Taylor, and almost certainly both. It’s not just about where the railway ends up when complete, but how you build it. There would also be extensive demolition elsewhere in the town centre for a road bridge, as be under no illusions, a level crossing there will not be permitted.
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
You wouldn't demolish either of them as the railway runs to the left of lidl, then to avoid demolition, curve round S Taylor on a bridge over pickering beck, curve again onto the original trackbed and carry on as normal.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
We're talking about how to solve certain problems on the line if it connected to the NYMR. But terminating on the south of Pickering is beneficial.
Trust me, that’s not possible, at least not with a standard gauge railway you want to run a train on.
you might manage it with a Hornby OO.
Class08Shunter
On Moderation
I think it is as I had a look on google earth and the gap is wide enough.
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