France needs better slow trains, not just fast ones

[Adlington]

An interesting article in the Economist, unfortunately behind a paywall. Here are the crucial (IMHO) points:

At the end of a branch railway line that winds through wooded valleys in central France, a single carriage pulls into the little town of Ussel. The station has scarcely changed since it was built in 1880. Passengers still step over the rails to cross to the platform opposite. Clumps of grass and tall weeds sprout between the tracks.
To reach Ussel by railway from Paris, 480km (300 miles) away, there is no high-speed option. The journey can take nearly seven hours, with a change at Brive-la-Gaillarde. In the same amount of time, thanks to France’s superb network of high-speed trains (TGV), it is possible to zip all the way from the capital to Marseille on the Mediterranean—and back.
Four decades of pouring money into the TGV has taught France another lesson, and not only about the vast cost of building and operating these lines. It is that linking lucky hyper-connected cities to the capital has left swathes of the country at the mercy of poorly maintained railways, fostering a sense of abandonment. The TGV network has helped to create a “two-speed France”: superfast non-stop trains for those who can afford them; second-rate, slower trains for the rest.
On some secondary lines the service is worse today than in the past. Two non-TGV lines running north-south through central France have been particularly neglected: one between Paris and Clermont-Ferrand, the other between Paris and Toulouse, which passes through Brive and Limoges. The railway carriages running on the latter are veritable museum pieces, designed in the 1970s. Today it takes half an hour longer to travel from Limoges to Paris than it did back then.
The French government recently decided to switch track. As part of President Emmanuel Macron’s push to cut carbon emissions, it wants more people on the railways and fewer behind the wheel. But it knows that such a strategy cannot be based only on fast trains. “The TGV is a source of pride, and for a lot of big cities has been a motor for economic development,” says Clément Beaune, the transport minister. “But we have underinvested in certain other lines. For me that’s now a priority.” The government is putting €3bn into renovating these two non-TGV lines, and buying new trains. It has relaunched slow night trains on long routes.

 

[yorksrob]

A very sensible policy shift by President Macron by the sounds of it.

We need to make sure our shower don't go off in the opposite direction

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The regional TER networks are getting their act together, with local funding and priorities.
But they still rely on rather infrequent (2-hourly) services on most routes, and calling at all stations can be really slow.
Rolling stock is due to be upgraded with large orders for new EMU and bi-mode trains in the pipeline (displacing all the LHCS).
But that still leaves the rural branch line services, which are often operated by buses.

 

[StephenHunter]

The Corails are nice carriages, but they are pretty dated now. Still "slam door".

 

[Mag_seven]

Having been over in France in the last couple of days then I would 100% agree. Despite large sections of track being wired and new rolling stock in place some of the service frequencies are diabolical.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

It should be noted that it's not the French state who is responsible for TER services, but instead it's the 12 regions of metropolitan France. So even though the central state might now be investing in secondary lines (although I've personally read contradictory things, that they aren't investing in a lot of local lines anymore), it's up to the regions to organise better services. Alsace, and now Grand Est, is an example where they are doing this, they introduced a lot of clock-face half-hourly services around Strasbourg two weeks ago.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It should be noted that it's not the French state who is responsible for TER services, but instead it's the 12 regions of metropolitan France. So even though the central state might now be investing in secondary lines (although I've personally read contradictory things, that they aren't investing in a lot of local lines anymore), it's up to the regions to organise better services. Alsace, and now Grand Est, is an example where they are doing this, they introduced a lot of clock-face half-hourly services around Strasbourg two weeks ago.

And the Regions are not obliged any more to contract SNCF to operate its trains, or to buy trains only through SNCF.
SNCF itself has ordered CAF trains for Paris-Clermont Ferrand and Paris-Limoges-Toulouse, the very routes described in the OP quote, as part of its Intercités operation.

CAF | Trust In Motion

We are CAF, a global leader in urban and interurban mobility, including comprehensive rail and bus systems. We provide bespoke solutions across all phases, from feasibility studies to commissioning and operational management.

www.caf.net

CAF is the supplier of the new regional trains for SNCF in France. The new EMUs are made up of 10-car consists which can reach a maximum speed of 200 km/h.
These units offer high comfort and equipment standards thanks to ergonomic seating fitted out with LED lights, USB ports, WiFi, plug sockets and bicycle areas with sockets. The train is also fitted with a dining area.
Maximum accessibility for Persons with Reduced Mobility is ensured with specific areas allocated for wheelchairs in the trains. The interior has been designed to ensure passengers can move safely inside the train through wide gangways and the absence of intermediate ramps or steps between cars.
The new fleet is intended for service on the medium and long distance lines of the SNCF railway network, more specifically on the Paris - Clermont-Ferrand and Paris-Limoges-Toulouse lines.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

When planning trips home to France for my Missus, it always baffles me that Chalons-en-Champagne - population 45,000, about 150km from Paris - only has a two-hourly service. On Sundays it dwindles to literally a handful of trains a day. I actually have to start with the Paris/Chalons service and then juggle the more frequent Eurostars to fit.
Compare that with Salisbury, Dover and Grantham - similar populations, broadly similar distance from London - which have a train at least every 60 minutes, in the latter two cases at least two an hour.

 

[yorksrob]

The UK InterCity model may not be the fastest in the world, but it serves a good range of settlements quite well when it's working.

 

[Austriantrain]

The UK InterCity model may not be the fastest in the world,

It is actually extremely fast, considering there are no High Speed Lines.

 

[etr221]

An interesting article in the Economist, unfortunately behind a paywall. Here are the crucial (IMHO) points:

Can be read in full at https://archive.ph/wtZZ4 (Same website can be used to get around many paywalls)

 

[30907]

An interesting article in the Economist, unfortunately behind a paywall. Here are the crucial (IMHO) points:

Ironically, the reason Limoges has lost out on speed is the SNCF move to more frequent intercity services with more stops, coupled with the loss of the twice-daily Capitole to Toulouse, replaced by the faster TGV via Bordeaux.
This reminds me of at least one route in the UK (not that the frequencies are comparable)

And yes, in the Massif Central the rural services are still dire.

 

[StephenHunter]

It is actually extremely fast, considering there are no High Speed Lines.

Er, HS1?

 

[181]

I don't know the French railways all that well, but as I understand, low frequencies, and an emphasis on jouneys to and from Paris at the expense of cross-country ones, are a long-standing tradition. Bryan Morgan in The End of the Line, publishd in 1955, describes a situation where in much of the country the main lines had just a day train and a night train to and from Paris, and the secondary lines not much more than the connections to and from the Paris day trains.

I was briefly in Normandy the other week; my impresison is that the trains were modern, comfortable, fast (by regional train standards, not compared with TGVs) and punctual, but not always that frequent by British standards -- e.g. Rouen-Caen has 8 trains per day, but on weekdays only one of them is between about 08.00 and 16.00, and Caen-Rennes (which I suspect may suffer from crossing between regions) has only 2 per day, both in the morning.

 

[Richard Scott]

A very sensible policy shift by President Macron by the sounds of it.

We need to make sure our shower don't go off in the opposite direction

Our services would have to be really dire to even come close to some of the French lines. Frequencies are truly appalling and no such thing as clock face departures. Late running and cancellations are fairly standard as well with many routes finishing around 20.00 or before. Even our 1980s timetables were better than current French ones outside of TGV routes.
Only regular non TGV services I can think of are Strasbourg to Basel, which are hourly (or half hourly at peak times). Any others?

 

[Feuillesmortes]

Can be read in full at https://archive.ph/wtZZ4 (Same website can be used to get around many paywalls)

Thank you. I wonder why Ussel, population 9,000, has been highlighted. It doesn't sound like a better rail service would necessarily help it to be re-populated.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Even TGV services can be surprisingly thin by British standards, especially at intermediate stations and not just the 'gare des betteraves' (beetroot field stations). Before COVID struck, travelling back from Switzerland, I decided to spent the night in Dijon (a city the size of Exeter), naively assuming there would be plenty of trains the following morning to Paris. Toddling down to the station that evening to book my ticket, I discovered that there were only three up early morning services - all fully booked - and then nothing until mid-afternoon throwing my plans into chaos. Exeter, by contrast, has an hourly service to Paddington throughout the day. Using the classic line wasn't an option either, with only a very thin offering taking an absolute age. The LGV Sud Europe Atlantique has also meant the virtual end of services on the Tours to Bordeaux classic line, meaning if you want to take a local journey from say to Poitiers to Angoulême, you have the faff of booking a TGV and there are inconsistent gaps in the service as certain TGVs call at one or the other, but not both

 

[RT4038]

Our services would have to be really dire to even come close to some of the French lines. Frequencies are truly appalling and no such thing as clock face departures. Late running and cancellations are fairly standard as well with many routes finishing around 20.00 or before. Even our 1980s timetables were better than current French ones outside of TGV routes.
Only regular non TGV services I can think of are Strasbourg to Basel, which are hourly (or half hourly at peak times). Any others?

Cannes-Nice-Ventimiglia, Marseille-Toulon and Perpignan-Narbonne-Nimes lines have fairly frequent (hourly at least) services.

 

[Jozhua]

I have got this impression of France from visits when I was a kid that the train service just doesn't run as frequently as in the UK, especially for smaller towns.

When it comes to urban transit, they seem to do better in a number of ways, but regional rail seems to be a relative area of strength for the UK. - at least when it comes to running a reasonable all day service.

It is actually extremely fast, considering there are no High Speed Lines.

This is true. UK has quite high average speeds from what I understand, although it varies wildly by route!

 

[PTR 444]

It seems that France has no concept of the taktplan, despite sharing a border with Germany and of course having cross-border services from there. A good start would be recasting the entire SNCF timetable so that major cities have a regular, clockface timetable of services to and from Paris, while slotting regular regional and local services in between them. Removing the compulsory reservations policy on TGVs would also go a long way in creating a passenger-friendly transportation network similar to Germany and to a lesser extent, the UK.

For example let’s take a look at the north.

Considering that Paris to Lille is equivalent to London to Birmingham in terms of combined population and distance between them, the LGV Nord should at least have 3 trains per hour between those cities at clockface intervals. That’s the provision the UK’s equivalent, HS2, will be getting anyway, so might as well do that same in France. Unlike Birmingham, TGV trains can access two stations in Lille: Flandres and Europe, therefore 1tph could terminate at Flandres while the other 2tph could use Europe and continue on the LGV towards Calais.

As for the classic lines, there should at least be an hourly fast service on the Paris - Amiens and Paris - St Quentin routes along with a regular interval TER slotted in between them. TGVs running on classic lines are fine operating at lower frequencies as long as they are still clockface, due to the fact that France is much more sparsely populated than the UK and demand is likely to be more spread out. For example, the 2tph that make up Paris Nord - Lille Europe could continue as four separate 2-hourly services, alternating between Dunkerque, Calais Ville, Boulogne and London.

 

[Austriantrain]

Er, HS1?

I didn’t consider SE class 395 services „Intercity“ and E* are not domestic services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2022 ==

It seems that France has no concept of the taktplan, despite sharing a border with Germany and of course having cross-border services from there. A good start would be recasting the entire SNCF timetable so that major cities have a regular, clockface timetable of services to and from Paris, while slotting regular regional and local services in between them. Removing the compulsory reservations policy on TGVs would also go a long way in creating a passenger-friendly transportation network similar to Germany and to a lesser extent, the UK.

For example let’s take a look at the north.

Considering that Paris to Lille is equivalent to London to Birmingham in terms of combined population and distance between them, the LGV Nord should at least have 3 trains per hour between those cities at clockface intervals. That’s the provision the UK’s equivalent, HS2, will be getting anyway, so might as well do that same in France.

Thank you for making this point. Indeed, frequencies even on TGV services are actually not that good compared to most European countries.

 

[yorksrob]

Even TGV services can be surprisingly thin by British standards, especially at intermediate stations and not just the 'gare des betteraves' (beetroot field stations). Before COVID struck, travelling back from Switzerland, I decided to spent the night in Dijon (a city the size of Exeter), naively assuming there would be plenty of trains the following morning to Paris. Toddling down to the station that evening to book my ticket, I discovered that there were only three up early morning services - all fully booked - and then nothing until mid-afternoon throwing my plans into chaos. Exeter, by contrast, has an hourly service to Paddington throughout the day. Using the classic line wasn't an option either, with only a very thin offering taking an absolute age. The LGV Sud Europe Atlantique has also meant the virtual end of services on the Tours to Bordeaux classic line, meaning if you want to take a local journey from say to Poitiers to Angoulême, you have the faff of booking a TGV and there are inconsistent gaps in the service as certain TGVs call at one or the other, but not both

A "beetroot field station" sounds so much more evocative than "parkway" !

 

[LowLevel]

It should be noted that it's not the French state who is responsible for TER services, but instead it's the 12 regions of metropolitan France. So even though the central state might now be investing in secondary lines (although I've personally read contradictory things, that they aren't investing in a lot of local lines anymore), it's up to the regions to organise better services. Alsace, and now Grand Est, is an example where they are doing this, they introduced a lot of clock-face half-hourly services around Strasbourg two weeks ago.

To be fair though SNCF have always been superb at the process of running down rural railways and presenting huge bills for restoration that no one wants to pay, resulting in closure.

"Pardon Monsieur, but the track is knackered. Best stick a massive slack on it, wreck the timetable and replace most of the trains with buses"

5 years later:

"Allo, is this the local government? SNCF here. You know that branch line with the speed restrictions? Yes, oh yes, and the other 4 too - €100 million please, or they're shutting in 6 months".

 

[Dr Day]

Maybe the French have taken a good hard look at the demographics (proportionally more people in France live in cities, and in apartments), and the costs of providing rail versus other forms of public transport and concluded high speed rail is the right thing for moving people between cities, light rail is the right thing for moving people on key corridors within cities, and buses/coaches are the right thing for moving people elsewhere? No emotion, just pure economics? Yes, they still subsidise public transport with typically low fares, but not to the extent of keeping the 'wrong' mode going for any particular market.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe the French have taken a good hard look at the demographics (proportionally more people in France live in cities, and in apartments), and the costs of providing rail versus other forms of public transport and concluded high speed rail is the right thing for moving people between cities, light rail is the right thing for moving people on key corridors within cities, and buses/coaches are the right thing for moving people elsewhere? No emotion, just pure economics? Yes, they still subsidise public transport with typically low fares, but not to the extent of keeping the 'wrong' mode going for any particular market.

Or maybe rural France has had cuts imposed on them against their will by Paris !

 

[Taunton]

France gave up most of its slow trains in 1938, all on the day of the merger and creation of SNCF, as mentioned by Bryan Morgan in the 1950s, described above. Just in case you thought there would be bus substitutes, compared to the onetime British network those were even worse in the rural areas. Most French villages and small towns have long had absolutely nothing at all. No wonder the Citroen 2CV became universal.

 

[30907]

Thank you for making this point. Indeed, frequencies even on TGV services are actually not that good compared to most European countries.

They aren't - and rebranding some of them as Ouigo hasn't helped. But AIUI the LGV access charges incentivise SNCF to run high-capacity trains with very high load factors, rather than grow the market by offering frequency.

As to TER services, regionalisation has had the opposite effect of encouraging hourly-interval services on routes that historically were reasonably busy but not regular-interval. Just checking ERT at random: from Bordeaux, Arcachon, Bergerac and Perigueux are all hourly SX, as are a couple of routes from Toulouse, and Lyon-Grenoble is half-hourly, as well as those already mentioned.
Obviously it depends on the Region concerned, and the contrast with profoundly rural France remains.

 

[Taunton]

It's been a longstanding French thing to just have a few mainstream long distance services on each route, maybe just two day trains and an overnight, of substantial length and regularly duplicated just a few minutes apart by a relief on all sorts of holiday and weekend dates. When the Turbotrains, limited 5-car sets, came to the Paris St Lazare to Cherbourg etc line around 1980, there was the most extraordinarily complex timetable with Corail reliefs which could take a good 5 minutes or more just to work out what was running on which day, not only the times but whether a supplement was payable, which also varied.

I wrote previously about being in Gare de Lyon one August Saturday afternoon a few years ago, there arrived from the Riviera a coupled twin set TGV double-decker Duplex, completely full, which disgorged well over 1,000 passengers, followed just a few minutes later, and before everyone from the first train had even disembarked, by a similar in all respects relief. What a good thing they were not put on opposite sides of the same island - but the chaos for the next half-hour, maybe more, at the taxi stand, the Metro entrance, etc, was both fascinating and appalling.

 

[mike57]

I think one problem with France is that the population density is about a third of that in the UK, we are 67m in 242,500 sq km, France population is similar but spread out over 643,800 sq km. Most of our population is concentrated in England which is 56m in 103,000 sq km.

This makes providing frequent rail services over large tracts of rural areas difficult. I have travelled quite a bit in France, and the thing that strikes me is how quickly once out of a city you are into fairly empty country, just villages and farms, even Paris, once you leave the built up area, its rural, not like the UK where there tends to be sprawl along major arteries. This difference in population density means that many towns or rural routes would not support an hourly service. I think the French situation is very different from either ours or Germany. In terms of population and 'sprawl' only the strip along the Med towards Nice and the area around Lille compare for example to our Leeds Manchester Liverpool axix, or London to the South Coast

The TGV provide good connections between major cities, much better than ours, other places get a token TGV service, which means people can plan a journey, but there are just large tracts which will probably not support any sort of rail service, there just are not enough people, and if there is currently a rail service its hanging on by the skin of its teeth.

The Voiture Sans Permis is another French measure to help people living in rural areas, there are large areas where there is no public transport, and it means that people are not trapped

 

[Taunton]

Relative's WW1 British war cemetery is in the Somme. Arras is the nearest station and city, then there's a bus I see to Bapaume, halfway there, five times a day. Bapaume has a population of about 5,000, supermarkets, a ring road, a market, but that's it for public transport. Beyond it's only by car.

Ironically the Paris TGV is now distantly visible from the cemetery.