Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[Railperf]

Looks like a pair of 720s on the 1830 Liverpool Street to Norwich. Is that usual?

 

[JonathanH]

Looks like a pair of 720s on the 1830 Liverpool Street to Norwich. Is that usual?

Showing as 12 coaches on Thameslink live departures for Colchester. Do 720s ever go past Ipswich yet?

[Picture is screenshot from https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/t...Destination=&DestinationCode=&Type=departures showing that 1830 Liverpool Street to Norwich is indicated to have 12 coaches]

 

[chubs]

Even more of a disgrace that the StanEx is still operating at only half the frequency it used to, and they still cant turn out enough trains to run it.

 

[306024]

I think it was Rail Magazine that mentioned about 18 months ago that the last 20 GA Aventras would have an "airport configuration", the plan was to put the 745/1s to use on the GEML.
We've had 2 changes of Government since then and the plan changed somewhere along the line.

We've got a few more peak services back but the Clacton line still isn't at full capacity, the original timetable planned for 4 tph to Southend Vic and 3 tph to Norwich between the peaks. The Norwich in 90 service hasn't returned (that I know of) and many of the service extensions that were planned for the Bi-modes haven't materialised. So there's some slack in the planned fleet. It's all a total mess-up really. The drift away from a 5 day working week was only expedited by the Pandemic so giving a franchise award based on numbers of seats was short-sighted.

Instead of packed 5 car trains with narrow seats we could have had a more luxurious and comfortable 2+2 configuration and the full compliment of units intended.

In hindsight we certainly could have. If only we had known a pandemic would come along

Obviously now you can kiss goodbye to 3tph to Norwich (bad idea) 4 tph to Southend (arguably positive but Southminster connections would have been worse or less frequent) and hopefully N90 will die too. The through Lowestoft service would have been popular for a relativly small number on the East Suffolk line, but overcrowded at the London end as it was before unless it didn't stop. But then try pathing it, and even if you can it’s still a waste of a path and additional performance risk on the capacity constrained GEML.

The class 720 airport configuration was by far the best solution to what the bid team lumbered us with. But that required a timely decision, and decisiveness has been in short supply. Result is a bit of a mess-up as you say.

Looks like a pair of 720s on the 1830 Liverpool Street to Norwich. Is that usual?

13.30 Liverpool St to Norwich had at least one coach out of use that I saw (broken window) maybe this was actually two coaches by its next working, which usually would be the 18.30. Certainly was a 745/1 on the 13.30.

 

[Alfie1014]

In hindsight we certainly could have. If only we had known a pandemic would come along

Obviously now you can kiss goodbye to 3tph to Norwich (bad idea) 4 tph to Southend (arguably positive but Southminster connections would have been worse or less frequent) and hopefully N90 will die too. The through Lowestoft service would have been popular for a relativly small number on the East Suffolk line, but overcrowded at the London end as it was before unless it didn't stop. But then try pathing it, and even if you can it’s still a waste of a path and additional performance risk on the capacity constrained GEML.

The class 720 airport configuration was by far the best solution to what the bid team lumbered us with. But that required a timely decision, and decisiveness has been in short supply. Result is a bit of a mess-up as you say.


13.30 Liverpool St to Norwich had at least one coach out of use that I saw (broken window) maybe this was actually two coaches by its next working, which usually would be the 18.30. Certainly was a 745/1 on the 13.30.

Suggestion elsewhere that 720118 the latest to enter service has a slightly modified interior layout with some seats removed and that all the 720/1s will be so treated, interesting if true?

 

[306024]

Suggestion elsewhere that 720118 the latest to enter service has a slightly modified interior layout with some seats removed and that all the 720/1s will be so treated, interesting if true?

Apparently a couple of seats removed to make passenger flow around the doors easier. Four seats per coach. Presumably this is in addition to removing the tip up seats already started on some units. So not the Stansted configuration hoped for.

Never usually bother looking at unit numbers but going to watch for 118 now.

 

[MDB1images]

Trying to keep the records upto date,
Would I be correct in the following still to enter traffic as of 26/12.
720101 / 102 / 103 / 104 / 117 / 119 / 120 to 144.
720502 / 503 / 504 / 505 / 508 / 509 / 510 / 516 / 518 / 519 / 534 / 541 / 544 / 583

 

[TheHSRailFan]

Trying to keep the records upto date,
Would I be correct in the following still to enter traffic as of 26/12.
720101 / 102 / 103 / 104 / 117 / 119 / 120 to 144.
720502 / 503 / 504 / 505 / 508 / 509 / 510 / 516 / 518 / 519 / 534 / 541 / 544 / 583

Correct, using spotter data from TrainLogger all those 720s are not yet in service. 123 to 144 are not yet being built. I won't go into a breakdown of where everything undelivered is since some 720s might have been moved since they have been last logged.

Can tell you that 541 and 583 have been spotted testing on the Greater Anglia network multiple times.

 

[60159]

I’m

Correct, using spotter data from TrainLogger all those 720s are not yet in service. 123 to 144 are not yet being built. I won't go into a breakdown of where everything undelivered is since some 720s might have been moved since they have been last logged.

Can tell you that 541 and 583 have been spotted testing on the Greater Anglia network multiple times.

I gave my thoughts in 2159 which covered 12 (not definitely correct)
and you’ve mentioned the other 2 so all undelivered /5s covered.
I also mentioned 720101-4 being at Derby so only missing ones are 117, and 119-22 some of which may be being built.
Are you able to clarify which of these 5 are complete and do you agree with where the/5s are?

I’m

Correct, using spotter data from TrainLogger all those 720s are not yet in service. 123 to 144 are not yet being built. I won't go into a breakdown of where everything undelivered is since some 720s might have been moved since they have been last logged.

Can tell you that 541 and 583 have been spotted testing on the Greater Anglia network multiple times.

I gave my thoughts in 2159 which covered 12 (not definitely correct)
and you’ve mentioned other 2 so all undelivered /5s covered.
I also mentioned 720101-4 being at Derby so only missing ones are 117, and

 

[alm37]

Is there a suggestion 720123-144 won’t be built?

 

[43102EMR]

Is there a suggestion 720123-144 won’t be built?

They will be built, however Greater Anglia is looking into subleasing them to another operator as with the revised timetables, it’s unlikely they’ll need them for the foreseeable future.

 

[Spekejunction]

They will be built, however Greater Anglia is looking into subleasing them to another operator as with the revised timetables, it’s unlikely they’ll need them for the foreseeable future.

Ideal replacement for scotrail class 319 and 320….?

 

[43102EMR]

Ideal replacement for scotrail class 319 and 320….?

Not a bad idea, however won’t they be a bit long for some of the platforms? Also I don’t remember Scotrail having 319s

 

[AlexNL]

A pair of 320s is 119.64 metres long, a single 720 is 122 metres long. That shouldn't be much of a problem where they now run in pairs. And otherwise there's ASDO.

Additionally it'll provide a significant capacity uplift, a 720 has much more seats.

 

[306024]

A pair of 320s is 119.64 metres long, a single 720 is 122 metres long. That shouldn't be much of a problem where they now run in pairs. And otherwise there's ASDO.

Additionally it'll provide a significant capacity uplift, a 720 has much more seats.

An extra two metres may not sound much, but there is also signal sighting from the cab to consider, especially at terminal stations. Some sight lines from a 720 are not so good as a from a 320 cab.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Honestly using the Stansted a fair bit and with the current timetables for the 745s being extremely lax, it's unbelievable how many times I've had a 720 turn up in the last six months or so. Considering the number of 745s they have, it should not pose the level of problem that it does in terms of units being subbed in on both routes.

Realistically keeping the 745s on the mainline and putting the 720s on the Stansted route with a less narrow aisle and better luggage storage is the sensible road to go down, I know people in Abellio think the same thing but getting someone to sign off on the costs that might involve is never going to be easy.

If the 720s do end up going elsewhere probably you have to wonder what that might do for the 350/379s that are going to be spare. Trains that are that reliable and that young shouldn't be going anywhere when there are far more elderly and worse performing and in worse condition on the network, but the recent scandalous scrapping of the ex Heathrow 360s suggests that nothing is impossible anymore.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

An extra two metres may not sound much, but there is also signal sighting from the cab to consider, especially at terminal stations. Some sight lines from a 720 are not so good as a from a 320 cab.

Won't there also be overhang issues with the longer carriages?

 

[warwickshire]

They will be built, however Greater Anglia is looking into subleasing them to another operator as with the revised timetables, it’s unlikely they’ll need them for the foreseeable future.

I would suspect sublease to c2c as ccapacity is much needed. Few years time on c2c when the new builds arrive as mentioned elsewhere on other threads. Then 720 back to Greater Anglia from c2c. Ie sublease will end. Ie Greater Anglia will need 720s back anyway as capacity finally gets back to precovid levels once more. And Greater Anglia will need the x20 units back due to demand once more.

 

[Essex Express]

It would make sense for the 720 to taken on the Stansted duties over the 745 units which then can cover more services on the GEML such as some of the Ipswich semi fast and the Clacton services. As it looks like there will be some spare 720 it makes sense for the c2c route to come under the Gretaer Anglia franchise but that is not enought 720 to cover all c2c services. So a option is cover all c2c with 720 and back fill the gaps on the GE with the 379 units at say Clacton depot. Remember you can not fit a 720 in Clacton depot This then means the 357 units are spare and surplus to requirements but they are already 20 years old. This would then mean the GEML is covered by the 379 and 745 units.

 

[Spekejunction]

Not a bad idea, however won’t they be a bit long for some of the platforms? Also I don’t remember Scotrail having 319s

Neither do I 318 ?..

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Realistically keeping the 745s on the mainline and putting the 720s on the Stansted route with a less narrow aisle and better luggage storage is the sensible road to go down, I know people in Abellio think the same thing but getting someone to sign off on the costs that might involve is never going to be easy.

That will be same Abellio people that specified them for the Stansted in the first place

 

[Wivenswold]

That will be same Abellio people that specified them for the Stansted in the first place

My understanding is that the bid team are no longer at Abellio.

 

[F Great Eastern]

My understanding is that the bid team are no longer at Abellio.

That is my understanding also.

 

[47421]

That will be same Abellio people that specified them for the Stansted in the first place

Haven’t we heard before that the 745s were a necessary feature of the order for the bimodes as bimodes only would not have been viable? Anyway we are where we are. Will be interesting to see if Stansted does go back to 4 TPH in May, seems v little prospect of them reliably covering 9 diagrams.

 

[306024]

Won't there also be overhang issues with the longer carriages?

Well they are 24m stock so will need route clearance wherever they may or may not go. The west side throat at Liverpool St occasionally sees trains very close together but that must be OK.

That will be same Abellio people that specified them for the Stansted in the first place

No it will be the sensible people who were there long before Abellio arrived on the scene. Reliably supplying 9 class 745/1s for Stansted every single day is simply too ambitious and planning to fail. The get out of jail card is there (airport configured 720s as described above), if only someone could play it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There are people within both Abellio UK and Greater Anglia that really want to play that card but they can only play that card if the relevant people who hold the purse strings and can sign it off, agree to pay for it.

However the good news is that the people who hold the purse strings will be changing in the near future which will mean that those who want to play cards will not need to refer to some people they need to refer to today.

 

[ashkeba]

If there are not enough 745s, then some Norwich services will have to be 720s or multiple 755s. Don't keep nicking the best West Anglia stock.

 

[chubs]

Is it really that hard to turn out 9 745's from each subfleet every day? Why? These are brand new trains with maintenance contracts with the manufacturer. I'm well aware there's always teething troubles and hated the life expired junk we had before so I'm not approaching this from a nostalgic angle, but something isn't right here.

Is the lack of returning to 4tph for Stansted down to GA or the dft?

 

[43102EMR]

Is the lack of returning to 4tph for Stansted down to GA or the dft?

I’d say more the DfT as, as we all know, they stupidly want to see cuts.

 

[Alfie1014]

Is it really that hard to turn out 9 745's from each subfleet every day? Why? These are brand new trains with maintenance contracts with the manufacturer. I'm well aware there's always teething troubles and hated the life expired junk we had before so I'm not approaching this from a nostalgic angle, but something isn't right here.

Is the lack of returning to 4tph for Stansted down to GA or the dft?

On the face of it no it shouldn’t after all c2c used to get 94% out of its 357s in their halcyon days, however 9 out of 10 is much harder than 70 out of 74 especially when you maintenance depot is 110 miles off the line of route compared to 6 miles for East Ham and no much further for Ilford. If a train becomes disabled and the only replacement is at Crown Point it’s going to take 2-3 hours to get it into service if it can be spared off maintenance. Case of point at the moment with the GEML closed due to engineering works until 02/01/23 units are having to be dragged from Cambridge to Crown Point for maintenance.