Poor quality passenger rail service increases demand for private car purchases

[Class83]

The reality is driving costs me 15p/mile in diesel, I've already paid MOT and insurance, the tyres, servicing etc will come round a bit sooner the more I drive, but say 30p/mile. If I get in my car I know that I can leave when I want, journeys at rush hour will hit some congestion, but that can be planned for, and unless I'm going to London will still be as fast when you allow for buses and trains not going exactly where needed so there is probably a bit of walking or a second bus at the other end. If going to a city parking is probably chargeable. If I do get caught in a traffic jam I'm in an air conditioned car listening to music of my choosing and not adjacent to any person who is loud, smelly or otherwise annoying.

Getting a train was unreliable, particularly at the evening and weekend since covid, since the strikes kicked in family, friends and colleagues have all adopted a position of not planning to travel by train more than 2 weeks in advance. Which pretty much wipes out the availability of cheap advance tickets for longer journeys. Trains therefore look quite expensive, are often overcrowded and there is no guarantee of a seat or associated food and drink service.

Hopefully the railway will resolve the various operational and industrial issues, but it will take time to change minds about the service which is offered. This will limit pricing opportunities which makes the economics harder, people will pay a premium if they get on board, sit down and have a pleasant journey, but who really believes that is the reality of Avanti, TPE or even LNER at the moment?

The answer isn't wholly car or train. For most passengers, getting to an Intercity station is most efficiently done by driving there, but not all stations have large multi-storey car parks which are discounted for rail users. Places like Darlington, Doncaster, Crewe and Warrington should be set up as parkway stations, if passengers have an hour or sitting on a Sprinter or bus to get there, the relative comfort of an intercity train is largely lost. Supermarkets and Cinemas provide their customers with a car park, the railway could as well.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes it is. The people using long distance (more than 75 miles) rail are rich.

Nobody can find these 'deals' and have little interest in booking 7 months ahead or doing a 5 way ticket split, when you can drive for a fraction of the flexible prices.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2023 ==


The country is too heavily indebted. Inflation isn't going away either. Many people seem to have forgotten the lesson from September concerning unfunded spending and are back on the Corbyn magic money tree.

Even Starmer & Reeves know those days are gone. They realise they need economic growth to deflate the debt and public sector workforce productivity instead of never ending headcount increases, but they have no clue how to get either.

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The railway has lost about 25% of its pre COVID passenger fare income and currently has not revealed the plan to close the gap.

The post COVID recovery is now being kneecaped by unions who expected RPI increases in pay to return as soon as the pandemic was over.

Far worse than 2009.

If the powers that be want to get the economy growing, they need to get the railway functioning properly.

 

[al78]

Another big disadvantage of the train compared to the car has been highlighted to me this week. It is my sister's 60th birthday in a couple of weeks and I accepted the invitation to a meal out on the weekend of the 29th. A day after I booked advance tickets I was told plans have been changed and it is now on the 22nd. Rescheduling tickets comes with a not insignificant cost, the cumulative total of which is now greater than if I'd just turned up at the station and bought an open return. The advantage of driving is there are no financial costs associated with rescheduling a planned journey.

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My strong personal opinion is that that is dangerous, unless you've got two drivers (but even so it's a long trip and being in a car itself causes fatigue). That journey absolutely needs an overnight break, and even if you considered it didn't "three short breaks" is nothing like enough, you need at least one long break for a decent sit down meal or similar away from the vehicle to completely clear your head, plus a greater number of shorter ones.

Please don't do this, it puts others at risk. You may not feel tired, but you will be.

The tacho rules for lorry drivers and coach drivers are as they are for a reason, and driving a lorry on the inside lane of a motorway at 56 is a heck of a lot less mentally taxing than driving a car at 70+.

I drove from Horsham to Braemar last June but I broke the journey overnight with my father in Salford.

I did look at getting there with public transport but with a mountain bike it is a non-starter. Getting a train to Aberdeen then cycling 60 miles is not a practical option IMO.

 

[Thirteen]

The reality is driving costs me 15p/mile in diesel, I've already paid MOT and insurance, the tyres, servicing etc will come round a bit sooner the more I drive, but say 30p/mile. If I get in my car I know that I can leave when I want, journeys at rush hour will hit some congestion, but that can be planned for, and unless I'm going to London will still be as fast when you allow for buses and trains not going exactly where needed so there is probably a bit of walking or a second bus at the other end. If going to a city parking is probably chargeable. If I do get caught in a traffic jam I'm in an air conditioned car listening to music of my choosing and not adjacent to any person who is loud, smelly or otherwise annoying.

Getting a train was unreliable, particularly at the evening and weekend since covid, since the strikes kicked in family, friends and colleagues have all adopted a position of not planning to travel by train more than 2 weeks in advance. Which pretty much wipes out the availability of cheap advance tickets for longer journeys. Trains therefore look quite expensive, are often overcrowded and there is no guarantee of a seat or associated food and drink service.

Hopefully the railway will resolve the various operational and industrial issues, but it will take time to change minds about the service which is offered. This will limit pricing opportunities which makes the economics harder, people will pay a premium if they get on board, sit down and have a pleasant journey, but who really believes that is the reality of Avanti, TPE or even LNER at the moment?

The answer isn't wholly car or train. For most passengers, getting to an Intercity station is most efficiently done by driving there, but not all stations have large multi-storey car parks which are discounted for rail users. Places like Darlington, Doncaster, Crewe and Warrington should be set up as parkway stations, if passengers have an hour or sitting on a Sprinter or bus to get there, the relative comfort of an intercity train is largely lost. Supermarkets and Cinemas provide their customers with a car park, the railway could as well.

Realistically you can't put car parking spaces at every station, some towns simply don't have the space for car parking spaces. P

 

[Vespa]

Can't imagine people abandoning public transport on mass in favour of cars. Indeed the move towards using anything but the car is favoured in major cities.

I do think a lot of this is hyperbole, we're seeing new rail projects every year and we see the benefits like the Northern Line Extension, the Elizabeth Line, HS2 in the next few years and even new stations like Barking Riverside and Brent Cross West, that doesn't suggest the railways are going anytime soon.

I did also mention WFH which you have not commented on.

This is entirely a new thing and looks to be the future way of working, out of town offices will be hired on a daily basis as required to bring the staff together along with easier parking and cheaper rent makes it an attractive proposition, city centre offices will be obsolete.

 

[Thirteen]

I did also mention WFH which you have not commented on.

This is entirely a new thing and looks to be the future way of working, out of town offices will be hired on a daily basis as required to bring the staff together along with easier parking and cheaper rent makes it an attractive proposition, city centre offices will be obsolete.

Working from Home won't kill off public transport simply because many jobs can't be done from home and many people don't like working from home because of their living situation isn't suitable.

A lot of places that have WFH have started requiring more return to the office and that includes companies like Apple and Facebook. WFH has its benefits but it's not the be all and end all.

 

[Vespa]

Working from Home won't kill off public transport simply because many jobs can't be done from home and many people don't like working from home because of their living situation isn't suitable.

A lot of places that have WFH have started requiring more return to the office and that includes companies like Apple and Facebook. WFH has its benefits but it's not the be all and end all.

True to a point, what is clear out of town working is more popular, London and major city centres doesn't have the same importance as it used to have, industrial estates are sited out of urban centres for a reason cheaper rent and easier parking, this will be mirrored by office working trends.

The pandemic has brought this working culture forward by 15 years in my opinion, the rail strike is confirming it.

 

[yorksrob]

True to a point, what is clear out of town working is more popular, London and major city centres doesn't have the same importance as it used to have, industrial estates are sited out of urban centres for a reason cheaper rent and easier parking, this will be mirrored by office working trends.

The pandemic has brought this working culture forward by 15 years in my opinion, the rail strike is confirming it.

I'm not sure out of town industrial estates will be the draw that is made out, at least for office accommodation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about those going to war who have to maintain concentration for even longer periods?

War is an extreme case. Those who fight in it risk their lives. Outside of an actual war I'd very much expect the Army to be complying with driver hours even if they don't have to (I'm not sure if they do or not).

A normal human cannot concentrate intensely on driving for 12 hours. That's why the tacho rules are as they are. So please don't try to justify extreme driving choices which put others at risk. It's like "I don't feel a bad driver after 5 pints", which is fortunately now very illegal and socially unacceptable.

(What is it about this Forum and people trotting out extreme examples that just don't apply to normal life?)

 

[Thirteen]

True to a point, what is clear out of town working is more popular, London and major city centres doesn't have the same importance as it used to have, industrial estates are sited out of urban centres for a reason cheaper rent and easier parking, this will be mirrored by office working trends.

The pandemic has brought this working culture forward by 15 years in my opinion, the rail strike is confirming it.

I wouldn't be so sure, a lot of workers have either by choice or not have returned to the office especially in London and the city is always to have appeal to many. A grotty flat or an industrial estate in Acton is not going to be as appealing to work in compared to a nice, bright office.

 

[Deepgreen]

Why do people keep saying this? Large, busy and expensive car parks at stations which are regularly well populated with cars proves otherwise.

If you buy a car, you're not required to only travel by car. You can still go by train, bus, fly, cycle, walk, whatever. Most cyclists are car owners as well. I'd venture that most people using trains have a car on the drive (or in the car park) too.

Those who don't have a car now and are seeking to buy one will drive somewhere like London or Manchester once, then they'll drive to the station instead.

I suspect that once access to a car is available for those who do not currently have it, very many will not return, at least for a long time. It's a well-known psychological effect that a series of bad experiences that prompts a switch to another option (in almost any area of life) usually means that it takes a long time and much convincing to get those people to revert to the option with which they previously had bad experiences. Being stranded or badly inconvenienced because of rail problems does not play out in peoples' minds in the same way as being stuck in a traffic jam. Of course many rail users also have cars - it's a question of what proportion of their journeys are made by each mode, and long-term failures of one will inevitably lead to an increase of the other. The more the government runs the railways into the ground through political dogma, the more will be lost. What a waste.

 

[Vespa]

I'm not sure out of town industrial estates will be the draw that is made out, at least for office accommodation.

I have seen landscaped business parks with office units, cafes and eateries on site, it's not all grim factories you know.

 

[yorksrob]

I have seen landscaped business parks with office units, cafes and eateries on site, it's not all grim factories you know.

Still a pain to get to for those who don't have the car !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Still a pain to get to for those who don't have the car !

Only because the UK can't do public transport properly. In Germany such places exist, and while many do drive to them there'll be an Eilbus (dedicated express bus) to/from the local station for those using public transport at suitable times. There are indeed some examples in the UK, e.g. SEGRO (Slough Estates Group) provides this sort of bus service from Slough station to the Trading Estate, and Amazon is quite big on it too.

 

[yorksrob]

Only because the UK can't do public transport properly. In Germany such places exist, and while many do drive to them there'll be an Eilbus (dedicated express bus) to/from the local station for those using public transport at suitable times. There are indeed some examples in the UK, e.g. SEGRO (Slough Estates Group) provides this sort of bus service from Slough station to the Trading Estate, and Amazon is quite big on it too.

Is the UK ever likely to do a bus to every little industrial estate and office park though ?

The reason offices are in cities is that its already easy for people to get there.

 

[philosopher]

I wouldn't be so sure, a lot of workers have either by choice or not have returned to the office especially in London and the city is always to have appeal to many. A grotty flat or an industrial estate in Acton is not going to be as appealing to work in compared to a nice, bright office.

There are definitely some workers who prefer office working as opposed to WFH and I would count myself in my category. The issue for the railways here is two fold. First workers like me are very much the minority, and anecdotally, those workers tend to live close to their workplace in any case so are more likely to walk or cycle to work. Second, for workers who can’t WFH at all, they are more likely to work on industrial estates or non city centre locations that are harder to access by rail or other public transport so these workers are more likely to drive to work.

Therefore the rise of WFH disproportionally impacts demand on the railways compared to other means of transport.

 

[Vespa]

The reason offices are in cities is that its already easy for people to get there.

Not for parking, during strikes, unreliable public transport, rush hour crush, hmmm somehow I don't think many wants to go back to that.

 

[Thirteen]

Is the UK ever likely to do a bus to every little industrial estate and office park though ?

The reason offices are in cities is that its already easy for people to get there.

I agree, the idea that city centre will be deserted because people will be working from home or on industrial estates is quite silly. I know I use London a lot as an example but there's a reason that the Elizabeth Line goes to Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf is because people still do work in these areas to the point where it was needed as the Tube was at capacity in these areas.

There are definitely some workers who prefer office working as opposed to WFH and I would count myself in my category. The issue for the railways here is two fold. First workers like me are very much the minority, and anecdotally, those workers tend to live close to their workplace in any case so are more likely to walk or cycle to work. Second, for workers who can’t WFH at all, they are more likely to work on industrial estates or non city centre locations that are harder to access by rail or other public transport so these workers are more likely to drive to work.

Therefore the rise of WFH disproportionally impacts demand on the railways compared to other means of transport.

I know many people who do a bit of both. I think the flexibility of WFH is what I like rather than one or the other although TBH when I've had interviews, I do ask what is their policy and most workplaces are a bit of both.

Public Transport is still vital for many people and I think just because some survey suggests some people are considering and the key word here is considering getting a car does not dictate policy for public transport for the future. Yes there are train and bus strikes but it does not mean that we cut them to solve the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the UK ever likely to do a bus to every little industrial estate and office park though ?

It could be made a planning requirement. But some do!

The reason offices are in cities is that its already easy for people to get there.

Most office parks are on the edges of cities often near stuff like airports and motorway junctions. Very few are in the middle of nowhere.

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I agree, the idea that city centre will be deserted because people will be working from home or on industrial estates is quite silly. I know I use London a lot as an example but there's a reason that the Elizabeth Line goes to Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf is because people still do work in these areas to the point where it was needed as the Tube was at capacity in these areas.

The City is VERY quiet at the moment. I think it is fairly clear COVID has rendered the EL probably unnecessary, but given that it was pretty much built by 2020 there'd have been no sense abandoning it. It probably wouldn't be started if we were talking about it now.

There has certainly been a major bonfire of sandwich shops etc which are no longer profitable.

 

[philosopher]

I'm not thinking of office workers but doctors, nurses, teachers etc who by definition can't work from home who may not live locally to their workplace.

These workers tend to work in non city centre locations that are often hard to access by rail or other public transport and so have to drive.

 

[yorksrob]

Not for parking, during strikes, unreliable public transport, rush hour crush, hmmm somehow I don't think many wants to go back to that.

Compared of arse end of nowhere, nowhere to go for lunch, nowhere to go for a beer afterwards !

It's a very austere version of office life.

 

[Thirteen]

The City is VERY quiet at the moment. I think it is fairly clear COVID has rendered the EL probably unnecessary, but given that it was pretty much built by 2020 there'd have been no sense abandoning it. It probably wouldn't be started if we were talking about it now.

There has certainly been a major bonfire of sandwich shops etc which are no longer profitable.

The City has only just returned from Christmas so no surprise it's quiet at the moment but the fact the Elizabeth Line has exceeded all expectations does suggest it's not the white elephant some think it is and indeed it's always been busy since it opened.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2023 ==

Compared of arse end of nowhere, nowhere to go for lunch, nowhere to go for a beer afterwards !

It's a very austere version of office life.

Agreed, I know some offices are based on industrial estates but it sounds like a grim existence.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree, the idea that city centre will be deserted because people will be working from home or on industrial estates is quite silly. I know I use London a lot as an example but there's a reason that the Elizabeth Line goes to Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf is because people still do work in these areas to the point where it was needed as the Tube was at capacity in these areas.


I know many people who do a bit of both. I think the flexibility of WFH is what I like rather than one or the other although TBH when I've had interviews, I do ask what is their policy and most workplaces are a bit of both.

Public Transport is still vital for many people and I think just because some survey suggests some people are considering and the key word here is considering getting a car does not dictate policy for public transport for the future. Yes there are train and bus strikes but it does not mean that we cut them to solve the problem.

Indeed. Same for all the cities really.

Out of town in the middle of nowhere might be fine for someone my age who might drive, but if you want young go-getters, they'll want somewhere to go afterwards.

 

[lookapigeon]

True to a point, what is clear out of town working is more popular, London and major city centres doesn't have the same importance as it used to have, industrial estates are sited out of urban centres for a reason cheaper rent and easier parking, this will be mirrored by office working trends.

The pandemic has brought this working culture forward by 15 years in my opinion, the rail strike is confirming it.

A lot of jobs that can be done remotely do not need travel to the office five days a week anymore. I myself am only a few days in and generally it is for face to face meetings and catching up with colleagues in person.

On the strike days this week I was in a coffee place around my home town, it was packed out with people like me hunched over a laptop tapping away at the keyboard.

The London bus is also quite underrated. Cheap, relatively frequent, seat almost guaranteed and you can concentrate on other things to while away the time - reading a book/newspaper, catch up on podcasts/radio etc.

I used to do the same journey on the tube in at double the cost of the bus, and realised it didn't carry much advantage in terms of speed and in mornings, was packed nose-to-armpit, so why bother paying more to get the tube?

I drive as well but after 8 years or so in a previous job driving to the office, the car doesn't ever get used to go to the office. The traffic is always very jammed up, I'd have to fork out for parking on street etc.

 

[yorksrob]

It could be made a planning requirement. But some do!



Most office parks are on the edges of cities often near stuff like airports and motorway junctions. Very few are in the middle of nowhere.

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The City is VERY quiet at the moment. I think it is fairly clear COVID has rendered the EL probably unnecessary, but given that it was pretty much built by 2020 there'd have been no sense abandoning it. It probably wouldn't be started if we were talking about it now.

There has certainly been a major bonfire of sandwich shops etc which are no longer profitable.

Indeed, like the travelodge I stayed at recently that was nowhere near the town it purported to serve

(Great stay though )

 

[Thirteen]

A lot of jobs that can be done remotely do not need travel to the office five days a week anymore. I myself am only a few days in and generally it is for face to face meetings and catching up with colleagues in person.

On the strike days this week I was in a coffee place around my home town, it was packed out with people like me hunched over a laptop tapping away at the keyboard.

The London bus is also quite underrated. Cheap, relatively frequent, seat almost guaranteed and you can concentrate on other things to while away the time - reading a book/newspaper, catch up on podcasts/radio etc.

I used to do the same journey on the tube in at double the cost of the bus, and realised it didn't carry much advantage in terms of speed and in mornings, was packed nose-to-armpit, so why bother paying more to get the tube?

I drive as well but after 8 years or so in a previous job driving to the office, the car doesn't ever get used to go to the office. The traffic is always very jammed up, I'd have to fork out for parking on street etc.

I prefer the bus for shorter journeys but if I want to go into the centre, it's Tube or occasionally train all the way. The bus to somewhere like Leicester Square is just horrendous even with ULEZ and Congestion Charge.

 

[yorksrob]

The City has only just returned from Christmas so no surprise it's quiet at the moment but the fact the Elizabeth Line has exceeded all expectations does suggest it's not the white elephant some think it is and indeed it's always been busy since it opened.

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Agreed, I know some offices are based on industrial estates but it sounds like a grim existence.

I worked on one actually.

To be fair, it was walkable from the local country station, but it had a sandwich van that turned up in the car park once each lunch time (pot luck it would have what you wanted), as for dietary requirements, this was twenty years ago.

There was a pub over the road from the industrial estate that we went to as a team building exercise once a month. It was pot luck how cold the food was or whether you got a hair in it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, like the travelodge I stayed at recently that was nowhere near the town it purported to serve

(Great stay though )

Apart from the town centre ones Travelodges and Premier Inns are mostly aimed at motorists so are mostly found near motorway junctions and the likes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2023 ==

I worked on one actually.

To be fair, it was walkable from the local country station, but it had a sandwich van that turned up in the car park once each lunch time (pot luck it would have what you wanted), as for dietary requirements, this was twenty years ago.

There was a pub over the road from the industrial estate that we went to as a team building exercise once a month. It was pot luck how cold the food was or whether you got a hair in it.

I've worked in one too. I used to drive or cycle to the big Tesco nearby and get lunch there then eat it at my desk, but there was also a canteen so I sometimes went there then out for a lunchtime country wander. Quite liked it to be honest, if I went by car I could do my weekly shop in my lunch break.

It was actually within sort of walking distance of a station (about half an hour or so) but I doubt many did. I did it once to say I had.

 

[Deepgreen]

Only because the UK can't do public transport properly. In Germany such places exist, and while many do drive to them there'll be an Eilbus (dedicated express bus) to/from the local station for those using public transport at suitable times. There are indeed some examples in the UK, e.g. SEGRO (Slough Estates Group) provides this sort of bus service from Slough station to the Trading Estate, and Amazon is quite big on it too.

This, surely, is the crux of it. While we have our government actively running down our public transport, things are just not going to change. The Tories' utopia is like California's in the 1960/70s - cars for every person and roads/car parks to accommodate them. Those who are car-less are seen as the dregs of society and to be ignored. It's their utopia but it's really a dystopia, and it's almost here.

 

[yorksrob]

Apart from the town centre ones Travelodges and Premier Inns are mostly aimed at motorists so are mostly found near motorway junctions and the likes.

Another sign of our motor-centric society "grrr

To be fair to both of those companies, they have some hotels which are excellently sited for railway passengers !

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Apart from the town centre ones Travelodges and Premier Inns are mostly aimed at motorists so are mostly found near motorway junctions and the likes.

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I've worked in one too. I used to drive or cycle to the big Tesco nearby and get lunch there then eat it at my desk, but there was also a canteen so I sometimes went there then out for a lunchtime country wander. Quite liked it to be honest, if I went by car I could do my weekly shop in my lunch break.

It was actually within sort of walking distance of a station (about half an hour or so) but I doubt many did. I did it once to say I had.

Oooh, I'd love a works canteen.

Chips and beans plus whatever. Bliss