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Poor quality passenger rail service increases demand for private car purchases

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Bikeman78

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It would be increasing to see a survey of car owners on whether they use public transport because I think the results would be telling.

While it's not public transport per se, the Santander Cycle Scheme in London saw its busiest year ever:

Nuts to that. I have no interest in cycling in London whilst the tube network exists.

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A colleague of mine drives between his two houses in the US each month.

Princeton, NJ to Jacksonville, FL.

Just a cool 900 miles(!)
Does he have Rain Man with him? :D
 
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jayah

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The railways are constrained by what the government allows, however even then if we repeat the last 2 quarters of data we're back to 2011 passenger numbers (so far better than 2009).

If the strikes were to end and we see 5% growth each quarter for the next 6 quarters we'd see passenger numbers reach 2019 levels in 2023/24 (as a comparison Q1 to Q2 was about 9%) even though there's ongoing strikes.
The strikes are not ending, there won't be 5% growth happening 4 times a year compounded, and passenger numbers are not the same as revenue.

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If the powers that be want to get the economy growing, they need to get the railway functioning properly.
They will need to crush the strikes in that case. There isn't the money to pay off the public sector, as was proven in September.

The Southern DOO strike ended when terms were imposed. Instead of allowing this denial of the reality of DOO and a week having seven days in it, to continue indefinitely, perhaps that is the answer? Railway workers are paid enough to sustain the current level of disruption for many months yet.
 
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al78

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I suspect that once access to a car is available for those who do not currently have it, very many will not return, at least for a long time. It's a well-known psychological effect that a series of bad experiences that prompts a switch to another option (in almost any area of life) usually means that it takes a long time and much convincing to get those people to revert to the option with which they previously had bad experiences. Being stranded or badly inconvenienced because of rail problems does not play out in peoples' minds in the same way as being stuck in a traffic jam. Of course many rail users also have cars - it's a question of what proportion of their journeys are made by each mode, and long-term failures of one will inevitably lead to an increase of the other. The more the government runs the railways into the ground through political dogma, the more will be lost. What a waste.
When it comes to traffic congestion, there is a feeling of having some element of control because there is sometimes, maybe even frequently, the option of diverting onto another less congested road, and satnavs these days can warn drivers of congestion and calculate alternative routes. When you use public transport, almost all control over your journey is placed in the hands of other people, which in cases of severe disruption, can make one feel helpless and induce high anxiety due to the uncertainty and having to be dependant on someone else for assistance. The rail network has been trimmed down in the past to the point where in many cases, there is a primary route but little in the way of an alternative, so if the primary route becomes blocked, diverting can be difficult and very time consuming*. This contributes to the poor resiliance of at least some of the rail network and is why it can take little in the way of a perturbation to cause significant disruption.

*E.g. I remember one year the Balcombe tunnel being closed which shuts the Brighton Main Line, and there isn't a good alternative route.
 

Master29

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The country is too heavily indebted. Inflation isn't going away either. Many people seem to have forgotten the lesson from September concerning unfunded spending and are back on the Corbyn magic money tree.

Even Starmer & Reeves know those days are gone. They realise they need economic growth to deflate the debt and public sector workforce productivity instead of never ending headcount increases, but they have no clue how to get either.
Is this the same country that has more number munchers and quango mass that are probably paid a hell of a lot more to do the square root of sod all and keep telling us how broke the country is. It's always broke. They`ll find the money you can be sure.
The railway has lost about 25% of its pre COVID passenger fare income and currently has not revealed the plan to close the gap.

The post COVID recovery is now being kneecaped by unions who expected RPI increases in pay to return as soon as the pandemic was over.

Far worse than 2009.
For the first part, absolutely but the second part. Just patter from various sources.
 

GS250

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War is an extreme case. Those who fight in it risk their lives. Outside of an actual war I'd very much expect the Army to be complying with driver hours even if they don't have to (I'm not sure if they do or not).

A normal human cannot concentrate intensely on driving for 12 hours. That's why the tacho rules are as they are. So please don't try to justify extreme driving choices which put others at risk. It's like "I don't feel a bad driver after 5 pints", which is fortunately now very illegal and socially unacceptable.

(What is it about this Forum and people trotting out extreme examples that just don't apply to normal life?)

You want to come up to Skye. People here think nothing of a full days driving down to the smog. Nor do they think anything of driving to Glasgow and back for shopping or watching Scottish teams trying to play football. Same as when I was in New Hampshire for a while. A 14h drive to Virginia was considered normal.
 

LiftFan

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Personally I feel driving and public transport have different merits which for me make them closely tied. My car is a LOT more comfortable to sit in during a long journey than any of this new rolling stock, I can choose my own music, and I can come/go when I want. Luggage isn't an issue either. That being said, with an aging population I've noticed a large amount of drivers who refuse to do above 40mph anywhere, the motorways are getting more and more loaded with speed enforcement, and the price of petrol and parking no longer makes it cheaper for me as a generally solo traveller to go anywhere.
Trains have the potential to be a great way to get around. I can drink when I go out, I am free to use the toilets when I feel like, for longer distances it can often be a lot quicker than the motorway network, and on the older trains with better seating it can be a very relaxing way to travel. I never have to pay for parking and whilst fares do go up each year, they're much more predictable than todays fuel prices. However, to improve the service I would say we need better seating across the board, a better offering of catering for ALL long distance routes (looking at you, SWR and GWR).
 

Thirteen

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I love cars but I honestly wouldn't want the UK to become a car only society, you can see places elsewhere like in the US where cars dominate and the congestion in places like LA is horrendous.
 

miklcct

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Not really, as it depends on the journey. For some journeys the car makes sense, for others it's less attractive. Congestion, parking, the desire for a drink all play a part in the decision. Plus the quality and cost of the public transport alternative.
The car definitely makes sense for a rural-to-rural journey. However, if the journey is urban-to-urban but the car is the best form of transport, the society certainly has a great problem.


This, surely, is the crux of it. While we have our government actively running down our public transport, things are just not going to change. The Tories' utopia is like California's in the 1960/70s - cars for every person and roads/car parks to accommodate them. Those who are car-less are seen as the dregs of society and to be ignored. It's their utopia but it's really a dystopia, and it's almost here.
I hate the USA the most in the world. One of the reason is because of the car culture (other reasons include guns, imperial units, etc.). If the UK becomes the USA in such respect I will just abandon my immigration visa and return to HK despite all its problems.


Nuts to that. I have no interest in cycling in London whilst the tube network exists.
The tube doesn't reach everywhere in London, certainly not South London. Also it is very weak in orbital links as well. I'd rather ride my bike rather than paying a fortune to go into Zone 1 and out unless I am crossing London to the other side of it.
 

bramling

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War is an extreme case. Those who fight in it risk their lives. Outside of an actual war I'd very much expect the Army to be complying with driver hours even if they don't have to (I'm not sure if they do or not).

A normal human cannot concentrate intensely on driving for 12 hours. That's why the tacho rules are as they are. So please don't try to justify extreme driving choices which put others at risk. It's like "I don't feel a bad driver after 5 pints", which is fortunately now very illegal and socially unacceptable.

(What is it about this Forum and people trotting out extreme examples that just don't apply to normal life?)

And yet it’s perfectly permissible for a human to work something like a railway signal desk for 12 hours, indeed sometimes more. I’d say sitting in a bunker-like room staring at a computer screen watching numbers go up and down is more draining, especially with the issue that for much of that time there probably won’t be much going on.

Personally I wouldn’t drive 12 hours, however I’m quite happy doing St Ives to Hertfordshire or London to lowland Scotland in one go, and I’d quite happily go further after a relatively short stop. Personally I love driving late evening or overnight as it’s so much less stressful, and I’d certainly find 56mph on a motorway far more difficult than 70 or above. Something like the A1 is lovely at night precisely because there is a lot of variety plus lots to have to concentrate on, even at that time of day - but generally not having to worry about what Patsi in the middle lane is doing, which is what makes a lot of driving stressful during the daytime.
 

The Ham

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I'd agree that XC is a massive problem, but it's been a massive problem since Branson's entirely predictable stupid errors of the early 2000s, it's not a new thing. Amazes me just how long it takes the railway to solve obvious problems.

Indeed, XC needed more capacity in the mid 2000's and it would have likely reduced the level of support that they needed, as they could have increased train lengths without increasing staff costs proportionally. In turn that could have allowed them to offer cheaper tickets prices whilst still covering their costs.

I did also mention WFH which you have not commented on.

This is entirely a new thing and looks to be the future way of working, out of town offices will be hired on a daily basis as required to bring the staff together along with easier parking and cheaper rent makes it an attractive proposition, city centre offices will be obsolete.

WFH 4 or more days a week actually makes public transport a more cost effective option than car ownership.

Let's say you've got a car that costs £750 for insurance, VED and MOT and servicing. If you are going to the office 250 days a year that's a cost of £3/trip. If you are going 50 days a year that's £15/trip and those costs aren't likely to alter by much.

Whilst you may need a car for other purposes when you're at that sort of level of use those fix costs soon add up.

Obviously that's before you look at other costs, such as fuel or purchasing the car in the first place.

This, surely, is the crux of it. While we have our government actively running down our public transport, things are just not going to change. The Tories' utopia is like California's in the 1960/70s - cars for every person and roads/car parks to accommodate them. Those who are car-less are seen as the dregs of society and to be ignored. It's their utopia but it's really a dystopia, and it's almost here.

Indeed, whilst cars have a big party to play, they also can't be the (nearly) only way that we get about without it causing significant issues.

The strikes are not ending, there won't be 5% growth happening 4 times a year compounded, and passenger numbers are not the same as revenue.

The strikes could end though if the government wanted them to end. The fact that they aren't engaging in fixing them means that there's a risk that more support is needed than if the strikes were resolved.

Whilst 5% growth per quarter may be difficult to sustain after a few quarters (bearing in mind that we've had 8.87% between the last two quarters there's data for at least a few more averaging 5% isn't impossible), the point wasn't that it was what would happen, rather to highlight that actually a small amount of growth could deliver pre Covid levels of use within a fairly short timeframe.

Just not having 2 strike days in a month (and often there's more) where there's 60% use results in a 2.27% reduction in rail use. That's before you consider the wider impact from the strikes making people less likely to use rail.

Likewise Avanti, TPE and XC running 60-65% of their pre Covid km of services isn't helping rail be a viable option (even if your connecting TOC is at 95% the fact you can't do the long distance section is going to stop you from using that TOC).

I'm not staying that there can't be any cuts, some will be needed (for instance to allow a more reliable service to be run, as Covid taught us and to make some savings - although these should be justified in the same way that reopenings are, as they could actually cost the government more), rather that it's likely that if we want to see a reduction in the support paid to railways, only making cuts isn't likely to work.

Currently it's hard to tell what the Q3 for 2022/23 will result in, however from the DfT data it's looking fairly promising that there could be more growth over the Q2 data.

In that the average for Q2 from the DfT data was 81.2% of pre Covid use, whilst up to the end of November the average was 83.4%, that alone would be a 3% increase. Whilst that's below 5% that's with ongoing strikes and is using incomplete and approximate data. However is useful to highlight that growth is still the likely outcome, even if it's not as high as it would need to be too get to 2019 levels in the next data year.

Whilst passenger numbers does not equal the same revenue, generally higher passenger numbers does equal higher revenue. As such the closer we get to pre Covid use the closer we get to pre Covid revenue (even if the latter lags behind the former).

Bottom line, with 2009 levels of rail use it would be political suicide to fully close the railways (if we were at 1995 levels it might be possible to push it through, but even then it wasn't viable) as such it comes down to how much support is needed.

Ultimately that comes down to how much income can be generated, if you limit yourself by maintaining the strikes (and if you didn't have NHS strikes as well as a raft of others, it could be that there would be more support for crushing the RMT, but I suspect until several are resolved that's not an option) then your always going to be up against it in creating income. Bottom line, RMT would probably call the strikes off for 1% to 2% more than it's currently on the table.

As I've highlighted, an extra 2% of income is likely recovered by removing 2 strike days in a month. If that covers the 1% to 2% of extra pay to resolve the strikes, then why aren't we resolving the strikes?

Some may say it's political, in which case the party doing so aren't likely to come out of this very well (unless they make a promise about more maths for 17 and 18 year olds - then everyone will love them).
 

greyman42

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I agree, the idea that city centre will be deserted because people will be working from home or on industrial estates is quite silly. I know I use London a lot as an example but there's a reason that the Elizabeth Line goes to Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf is because people still do work in these areas to the point where it was needed as the Tube was at capacity in these areas.
Yes, i live in York and the place is thriving. Contrary to what some people think, London seems to be also doing very well.
 

johncrossley

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Apart from the town centre ones Travelodges and Premier Inns are mostly aimed at motorists so are mostly found near motorway junctions and the likes.

Certainly that was true in the beginning. They were almost exclusively at the roadside. But they've expanded hugely in town centres in recent years and new ones seem deliberately next to rail stations. I wonder if they now regret that strategy!
 

yorksrob

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Certainly that was true in the beginning. They were almost exclusively at the roadside. But they've expanded hugely in town centres in recent years and new ones seem deliberately next to rail stations. I wonder if they now regret that strategy!

I expect they're doing more business out of the rail strikes !
 

johncrossley

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The strikes could end though if the government wanted them to end. The fact that they aren't engaging in fixing them means that there's a risk that more support is needed than if the strikes were resolved.

It just kicks the can down the road. Even if the government give staff everything they want, next year or the year after there will be another grievance. Industrial dispute on the railways is simply the way it is.

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I expect they're doing more business out of the rail strikes !

Their roadside ones, yes. Not their newer town/city centre ones.
 

greyman42

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Their roadside ones, yes. Not their newer town/city centre ones.
Not sure about that. Whereas people might just of visited a city for a daytrip, they might extend that to a 1 or 2 night stay to get around the rail strikes.
 

johncrossley

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Not sure about that. Whereas people might just of visited a city for a daytrip, they might extend that to a 1 or 2 night stay to get around the rail strikes.

They will either not go or park at the out of town Travelodge next to the motorway junction.
 

yorksrob

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Not sure about that. Whereas people might just of visited a city for a daytrip, they might extend that to a 1 or 2 night stay to get around the rail strikes.

Indeed. The strikes have certainly led to me staying over at places more often.
 

johncrossley

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Indeed. The strikes have certainly led to me staying over at places more often.

Only because you are (presumably) committed to supporting the railways. That's counter-productive in my view. It sends out a signal that we will use trains no matter what.
 

yorksrob

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Only because you are (presumably) committed to supporting the railways. That's counter-productive in my view. It sends out a signal that we will use trains no matter what.

Actually, it's because I'm committed to following my football team. I often end up getting buses on strike days.
 

The Ham

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It just kicks the can down the road. Even if the government give staff everything they want, next year or the year after there will be another grievance. Industrial dispute on the railways is simply the way it is.

Whilst there's fairly often strikes (at least compared to other industries), the railways are getting a fair amount of support as (for example) the NHS is also striking. As such kicking the can down the road actually maybe useful.

Only because you are (presumably) committed to supporting the railways. That's counter-productive in my view. It sends out a signal that we will use trains no matter what.

The issue is, we do need to use trains.

Unless we spend a lot of money building a lot more roads (including within urban areas - so we'd need to force people to sell up and move out, probably in fairly large numbers), we just do not have the road capacity to close the railways down.

That's before we consider just how environmentally friendly rail travel is compared to other modes useful for over a few miles, which would mean at the very least needing to generate more electricity to account for the increase in energy requirements of moving people by EV vs EMU.

It also doesn't account for how much more space we need to build on to carry the same number of people. A 2 way road would typically max out at about 2,200 people each way, up this toa 3 lane motorway and you'd be looking at about 6,600 each way. A railway with 10tph using it could carry seated about 7,000 people each way. However the big issue is the parking required, a train only really needs a single siding to park in, whilst within an area is not uncommon for there to be several car parking spaces available for each car. Including the user of on street parking, which reduces space for traffic to get about.

If that's not an option, then the strikes need to come to a conclusion - that requires the government to come to the table. Something which hasn't appeared to be the case so far.
 

johncrossley

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Whilst there's fairly often strikes (at least compared to other industries), the railways are getting a fair amount of support as (for example) the NHS is also striking. As such kicking the can down the road actually maybe useful.

So what would be the point of bribing staff now if we still have the same problem in two years time?

The issue is, we do need to use trains.
But the last three years show that trains aren't an option.

Cities are the problem. The trend of moving back into cities since the 90s has been shown to be flawed because it locks in train dependence. We need to revert to suburban/small town development which are easy for cars to get around and embrace working from home even more.
 

Thirteen

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The UK couldn't cope without railways, simple as that so the idea we need to go turn our major cities into smaller towns is simply unworkable and a non starter.
 

johncrossley

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The UK couldn't cope without railways, simple as that so the idea we need to go turn our major cities into smaller towns is simply unworkable and a non starter.

We were following that strategy for most of the last 100 years. London, Liverpool and Manchester lost huge proportions of their populations from 1930 to 1990.

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I love cars but I honestly wouldn't want the UK to become a car only society, you can see places elsewhere like in the US where cars dominate and the congestion in places like LA is horrendous.

But most of America is not like that. They live in small towns or suburbs and get around exclusively by car without too much bother.
 

yorksrob

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So what would be the point of bribing staff now if we still have the same problem in two years time?


But the last three years show that trains aren't an option.

Cities are the problem. The trend of moving back into cities since the 90s has been shown to be flawed because it locks in train dependence. We need to revert to suburban/small town development which are easy for cars to get around and embrace working from home even more.

It's difficult to know where to begin with this post, however:

How have the last three years shown that trains "are not an option" ? They clearly are an option given the demand for services when they run reliably.

Also more small town/suburban development means more of our green and pleasant land tarmacked/concreted over. City and urban living is the only way to house such a large population in our comparatively small country, without destroying the essence of it.

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We were following that strategy for most of the last 100 years. London, Liverpool and Manchester lost huge proportions of their populations from 1930 to 1990.

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But most of America is not like that. They live in small towns or suburbs and get around exclusively by car without too much bother.

The USA is a very big country.
 

GoneSouth

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At least with the train if it's not coming you usually know, where as with the bus it just doesn't turn up. Had that happen to me on more than one occasion.
There’s plenty of real-time tracking on bus apps now and Stagecoach at least now state on the app when services are cancelled. Great for short term planning, but what it doesn’t help with is planning several hours ahead as it only shows the next hour of cancellations.
 

43066

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That aside to me even the idea would be hell on earth lol. Then again we are all different.

I’m the same. If I want to spend hours driving when I’m probably too tired to do it, I’ll just go to work. :D

But the last three years show that trains aren't an option.

Cities are the problem. The trend of moving back into cities since the 90s has been shown to be flawed because it locks in train dependence. We need to revert to suburban/small town development which are easy for cars to get around and embrace working from home even more.

So your suggestion is that we abandon cities in order to avoid paying railway staff a few % more. I wonder if it’ll catch on.:lol:
 

johncrossley

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How have the last three years shown that trains "are not an option" ? They clearly are an option given the demand for services when they run reliably.

But what about when trains are not an option? For most of the last three years, we have been forced to live without them for one reason or another.

We've actually been doing a lot of small town/suburban development for the last 100 years. Most small/middle sized towns are much bigger than they were a hundred years ago. Most of that was people moving from big cities to smaller towns. Pretty much any town under 300,000 population has little or no dependence on trains, and that is where most people live even now. You don't need everyone to live in little villages.

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So your suggestion is that we abandon cities in order to avoid paying railway staff a few % more. I wonder if it’ll catch on.:lol:

Giving rail staff what they want now doesn't help because there will still be a dispute next year or the year after.
 
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Mikey C

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Some frankly bizarre comments here, suggesting the government not giving in to strikers is a sign that the government is trying to destroy the railways and make us totally car dependant.

I've got no strong opinions as to the rights and wrongs of the RMT/ASLEF case versus the railway bosses, but I doubt the railway workers have the same level of public support as say the nurses.
 

johncrossley

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I've driven to the Isle of Skye and back from Greater London twice in the last few months.

For such long journeys, rail isn't the main public transport option anyway. Air tends to beat rail over such long distances.
 

yorksrob

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But what about when trains are not an option? For most of the last three years, we have been forced to live without them for one reason or another.

We've actually been doing a lot of small town/suburban development for the last 100 years. Most small/middle sized towns are much bigger than they were a hundred years ago. Most of that was people moving from big cities to smaller towns. Pretty much any town under 300,000 population has little or no dependence on trains, and that is where most people live even now. You don't need everyone to live in little villages.

And everytime we do that small town development, more and more countryside gets eaten up. Less green space for recreation, less agricultural land for food, making us less self-reliant and resilient as a country. Less flood plain and upper catchment area to soak up excess rainfall. We need to use the urban areas that we have, rather than create more sprawl.

People did use the railway less over the past three years. They undertook less economic activity and supported fewer jobs in the process. The demand now for the railway when it runs properly shows that we need a railway service.
 
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