Chiltern Trains interfered with by passenger

[Adam Williams]

Not at all, the vast majority of buses are push-button start. On the flip side, coaches tend to be on a key.

I thought the modern operators had adopted an immobiliser linked to the shift tracking on the ticket machine. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I'm surprised more buses aren't stolen if it's as simple as you suggest!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the modern operators had adopted an immobiliser linked to the shift tracking on the ticket machine. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I'm surprised more buses aren't stolen if it's as simple as you suggest!

If you steal a bus what on earth are you going to do with it?

Joyriding isn't really a thing any more, the kids are in their bedrooms playing on their consoles or scrolling Instagram.

 

[class68fan]

If you steal a bus what on earth are you going to do with it?

Their were a case recent of someone borrowing a bus to get them home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their were a case recent of someone borrowing a bus to get them home.

"If you've had too much to drink take the bus home"
"I didn't think I was sober enough to drive that either, but I woke up and there's one parked outside my house"

 

[Spartacus]

Joyriding isn't really a thing any more, the kids are in their bedrooms playing on their consoles or scrolling Instagram.

Wanna bet? It just doesn't get the publicity it used to get, especially when their targets are often motorbikes instead of cars.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Certain operators use hidden switches that need to be pushed as well as the obvious ignition labelled button as a ‘defence against dummies’ for buses

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certain operators use hidden switches that need to be pushed as well as the obvious ignition labelled button as a ‘defence against dummies’ for buses

When I had a Land Rover Defender I did consider doing that with some otherwise purposeless switches on the dash. I believe fitting a secondary battery switchoff key is common on classic cars, similarly, you usually hide it somewhere unexpected so it'd take time to find and slow a theft too much.

 

[Benjwri]

If you steal a bus what on earth are you going to do with it?

I think this is the biggest reason. Almost every modern bus has a tracker, if nothing else for showing up in passenger facing apps, and the interior is filled with cctv cameras.

To actually steal a bus you need one unattended, which rarely happens for more than a few minutes, or you’d have to steal it from a depot, so either way the police will be notified rather quickly.

In the almost certain case you’re caught it’s a slam dunk prosecution and almost guaranteed way to spend some time as a guest of his majesty, especially if you take one with passengers on.

 

[Adam Williams]

In the almost certain case you’re caught it’s a slam dunk prosecution and almost guaranteed way to spend some time as a guest of his majesty, especially if you take one with passengers on.

I actually think it would depend somewhat on where the bus was stolen from (the depot? a bus-stop whilst in operation on a service route/left unoccupied by the driver?), and if any damage was incurred. Stealing a bus needn't be automatically considered aggravated vehicle taking.



I could see a community order being handed out if good care was taken of the bus, passengers were uninjured and there was generally limited culpability, though I suspect there would be a period of disqualification from driving.

I have no real desire to find out, mind you!

I can see a stolen train being dealt with much more harshly given the safety issues that would arise (though at this point we're perhaps moving out of the realm of feasible offences that might be committed). E.g. criminal damage with intent to endanger life/reckless as to whether life endangered or something even more serious.

 

[357]

It's happened....

Waiter fined after taking a bus and driving it around Hounslow for 40 minutes

Thomas Farooqi took a bus from Hounslow Bus Garage and drove it up to Uxbridge before returning it undamaged

www.mylondon.news

Waiter fined after taking a bus and driving it around Hounslow for 40 minutes​

Thomas Farooqi took a bus from Hounslow Bus Garage and drove it up to Uxbridge before returning it undamaged.

A waiter who was so obsessed with buses he took one and drove it around the streets of Hounslow has been ordered to pay £160.

Thomas Farooqi, of Convent Way, Southall, took a bus from Hounslow Bus Garage, just off Hounslow High Street, on Sunday, April 6, at 5pm.

The 21-year-old, who used to be a cleaner at the garage, took the vehicle on a 40-minute tour around the perimeter road of Heathrow, up into Uxbridge and Hayes and back via Cranford before depositing it undamaged at the depot. He did not pick up any passengers en route.

He was arrested on April 17 by officers from Hounslow Police and given a caution for taking and driving away.

Farooqi was also charged with driving a motor vehicle without a licence or insurance and was sentenced at West London Magistrates' Court on Monday (May 12), having admitted both charges. He was fined £92 and ordered to pay £48 costs, plus a £20 victim surcharge.

getwestlondon understands his bedroom had been full of model buses and he had fantasised about driving one, which is why he walked into the garage that afternoon and picked a jacket off a hanger before driving off in a bus. It is not known how he got the keys.

It is believed bus operator London United was only alerted after a bus driver spotted the vehicle was not following its normal route. When staff tried to contact him on the bus radio, he posed as an engineer.

 

[Gostav]

Certain operators use hidden switches that need to be pushed as well as the obvious ignition labelled button as a ‘defence against dummies’ for buses

As time goes on, soon the starting steps will be circulated on the internet by enthusiastic drivers and enthusiasts.

 

[dodecahedron67]

As time goes on, soon the starting steps will be circulated on the internet by enthusiastic drivers and enthusiasts.

I'm not going to lie to you, when a new bus type got delivered and I was in one for the first time w/o training, it wasn't the new location of the hidden switch that defeated me - rather the labelled battery isolation switch! Some of the "hidden" locations are much better than others...

 

[CE142]

I suspect most people who've used these regularly in hotels will be able to recount tales of having them not work and having to return to reception.

Yes... I booked into an IBIS for 5 days last year and every time I came back to my room, the Keycard wouldn't work, despite Reception telling me every time I went back to them and telling them that it didn't work, that it would work for the remainder of my stay.

 

[baz962]

I carry three sets of keys for this very reason, and have attached large orange tags to BR1 and safety system reset keys to make them easier to see on the grey desk before I forget about them!

I also have spare keys on me. One reason being that if I need to isolate anything I don't need to key off the cab.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Their were a case recent of someone borrowing a bus to get them home.

"What took you so long to get it out of the depot?"
"The No 17 was parked right at the back"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2023 ==

I actually think it would depend somewhat on where the bus was stolen from (the depot? a bus-stop whilst in operation on a service route/left unoccupied by the driver?), and if any damage was incurred. Stealing a bus needn't be automatically considered aggravated vehicle taking.

I could see a community order being handed out if good care was taken of the bus, passengers were uninjured and there was generally limited culpability, though I suspect there would be a period of disqualification from driving.

Probably also driving with no insurance or licence for that category of vehicle, as well as simple TWOC

 

[12LDA28C]

Is CCTV fitted to those trains?

Yes, at various locations inside each vehicle including facing each set of doors. If the miscreant had used a T key to lock out a set of doors this should certainly have been picked up by the cameras.

 

[Amaroussi]

The incident reminds me of a series of incidents on the New York Subway, where a group of vandals calling themselves the "conquestors" have been interfering with train controls meant only for staff. There was an incident in 2015 when they stole a metal sign and then laid it under the conductor rail, which caused the undercarriage of the R32 subway train to explode when it hit the sign. I have since found out that the problem has re-emerged.

Sources: https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/subway-vandalism-subway-conquestors and this video (how am I going to stop an inline video link from turning itself into an embedded video?)

 

[busestrains]

I have just found these five videos on Tik Tok which are perfect examples of what happens when idiots get hold of railway keys:

TikTok - Make Your Day

TikTok - Make Your Day

TikTok - Make Your Day

TikTok - Make Your Day

TikTok - Make Your Day

I suppose it is not quite as serious as the Chiltern Railways incident but they were still able to open up panels and make offensive announcements over the speakers.

It is a difficult issue to sort out. Any type of key will get in to the hands of the wrong people. I suppose key cards and key pads add issues to and make things difficult for staff. So it is a difficult issue to sort out.

 

[ic31420]

Nice in principle, but completely impractical. People lose a key, ask for a spare, find the old one. Logging starts but then gets onerous so it slips away, especially if a driver or guard needs a key in a rush if it's going to delay a service. Not to mention there's a lot of other staff issued such keys (platform staff, managers, trainers etc.) which don't have a "depot". People then leave and don't hand every single bit of equipment back.

Part of my job used to be trying to manage access control fobs.... It was awful.

People would lose or break RFID Id cards in all manor of ways, we had dropped off ferries in the Irish sea, taken by a seagull in Devon, dropped in a cavity wall, split when using to scrape the car, boil washed, melted, microwaved, one lad seemingly was able to cause multiple cards to delaminate in his pocket. Dropped in a urinal at a pub and didn't want to pick it up, left at the in-laws, "can I just have a few cards incase I leave them at home/in my locker.

People would glue their not working cards to other cards from other staff to create a working card. Then be upset when we deleted the second card when the original owner wanted a new one or left.

Then Bob would turn up and tell you he'd lost his card, you'd look and see Bob last used his card two years ago so asked him what was happening, he then said... Ahhh, well I lost mine 2 years ago, so when Gregg retired he gave me his, I've been using that, god knows what we took off Gregg when he retired.

Key/ door fobs, I just used email if not used for 6 months and delete if not used for 12.

Simple mechanical Keys are even less recordable as you can't see if they're being used.

Despite us having all our locations online, some would just go rogue report AOK but secretly refuse to update fobs, course you'd never know deletions not going through and only found additions didnt work when a card that hasn't been uploaded failed at that particular site and the bod was motivated enough to phone in.

We had originally a couple of sites that had standalone systems that needed manually visiting and updating manually from a list that may or may not be accurate depending if the spreadsheet was updated.

We noticed one of our sites had 50+daily staff but only single digits of cards being used. Turned out someone left their card on a bit of string near the door scanner.

We'd have people phoning up the 24hr on call guy after leaving their card inside and exiting locking themselves out.

As much as ADT or whoever make it sound lovely and easy it's headbangingly horrible....

And afterall that, despite senior management banging on about security etc. I could still get into the building with nothing more than a library card and holding my breath.

Just add humans for instant chaos. I'd hate to do it on a bigger scale with moving trains, flakey data, more people and all manor of things to go wrong if it doesn't work. With us the consequence was usually a bit of wasted time.

Not at all, the vast majority of buses are push-button start. On the flip side, coaches tend to be on a key.

One of the local school bus depots had issues local kids entering the buses cracking up the engines and heaters and spending the evening in the warm and dry. It was the litter that gave them away as they'd shut off the engine and close the doors when done.

When I had a Land Rover Defender I did consider doing that with some otherwise purposeless switches on the dash. I believe fitting a secondary battery switchoff key is common on classic cars, similarly, you usually hide it somewhere unexpected so it'd take time to find and slow a theft too much.

Pretty much a low tech version of the modern ghost immobilizers.

I used to have a mk2 Corsa i modified it that it would only crank if the rear fog light button (latching button) was "on". You'd then switch it off and drive away, unless the lights were on the fog light wouldn't come on. It had a flywheel the size of a mill engine so you could t really stall it.

Pretty sure that Maplin or Tandy (remember them?) Used to do a kit.

Bringing it back to topic. I once got a tkey inside a box of papers I bought on eBay, wasn't advertised seemingly forgotten.

I wonder what the intention of the purp was?
Ex employee?
Wannabe?
Mischief causer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have just found these five videos on Tik Tok which are perfect examples of what happens when idiots get hold of railway keys:

I'll be honest, I had a bit of an immature giggle at that lot, much as I'd never even think of actually doing it.

TBH I've seen those panels left open often enough, if you don't need a key to do an announcement as someone suggested above then it wouldn't be hard. I tend to close them if I see them open, but sometimes the latches are broken.

 

[hacman]

Another interesting aspect here is that even if you switch to more modern keys and locks, if they're still physical rather than electronic it is entirely possible to 3D print a replica from a half-decent photo of the original!

 

[507 001]

Railway vehicles and equipment would be much more secure if British railway companies used the 'Berne' keys which are almost universal on continental railways. They are in some ways the 'reverse' of the standard British carriage key in that the lock consists of a circular hole containing a square stock and the key is a circular casting with a square-shaped hole in the centre corresponding to the stock in the lock. These are much more difficult to forge - in both senses of the word - and cannot be opened with a diagonally-held house or car key, plyers handle or file. An even more secure version which is now beginning to appear on more modern stock is the triangular version, which is even more difficult to copy and unlock.

I have about 50 of those meter utility keys in both plastic and metal

Berne keys are laughably easy to get hold of. They’re available in all good supermarkets and DIY stores.

The biggest problem I’ve found (we use them on M5000s) is getting hold of one big enough to get decent enough leverage.