London Euston - late advertising of services

[Bletchleyite]

Although it’s supposed to ensure ticket checks take place prior to boarding, they rarely do. Keeping passengers waiting (often in a stupidly large queue which snakes around the concourse) just seems pointless and counterproductive.

It's not as bad there (and wasn't at Liverpool previously) because Avanti only use(d) one platform, so a civilised queue can form where an Avanti unit is visible.

Yes, let's save the Train Manager some workload, and who cares about the plebs who want to get on another TOCs train on the adjacent platform, and whether they miss it or not.

Avanti don't stop people getting to LNR trains and don't force them via their checks. If they do it's because they screwed up.

There are almost never boarding checks on LNR on non-gated platforms unless there's an RPI sting on, which is once a year if you're lucky.

 

[Mike99]

It really isn't. Marylebone is a smaller version of the same nonsense, and Paddington is little better.

Bring the train in, tip it out, lock the doors then call it. People can then wander down and queue by the doors when they are ready, spreading out as necessary. Cleaners can access it via the crew doors. Also Euston really needs a single gateline under the old departure board, that would slow the flow a bit and would mean they weren't waiting for an RPI team to board.

Your right, Marylebone can be a problem, I walk with a stick, I'm not badly disabled but I'm not very fast either, a fairly late call and then if it's the platforms halfway towards the tunnels, it is a long way, and because it's a fair distance staff can't even see your trying to get there, I always think i'm going to miss the train.

 

[cactustwirly]

It really isn't. Marylebone is a smaller version of the same nonsense, and Paddington is little better.

Bring the train in, tip it out, lock the doors then call it. People can then wander down and queue by the doors when they are ready, spreading out as necessary. Cleaners can access it via the crew doors. Also Euston really needs a single gateline under the old departure board, that would slow the flow a bit and would mean they weren't waiting for an RPI team to board.

Paddington has improved massively over the past couple of years. Now platforms are announced around 15-20 minutes before departure.
The remaining local services no longer have 10 minute turnaround times.

Cannon Street, Victoria and Waterloo etc all do the same. Platform isn't displayed until the inbound train arrives which can be 10 minutes before departure as the trains often have short turnarounds

 

[Oxfordblues]

If it's any consolation, there is the same issue at Penn Station in New York where departing trains are announced only a few minutes before the booked departure time, leading to the familiar last-minute scramble.

 

[voyagerdude220]

The inward stock for the 14:45 Euston to Crewe only arrived into Euston at 14:40, which won't have helped.

 

[duncanp]

If it's any consolation, there is the same issue at Penn Station in New York where departing trains are announced only a few minutes before the booked departure time, leading to the familiar last-minute scramble.

It is not unknown for the SNCF in France to advertise a train as departing from one platform, and for it to depart from a completely different platform.

 

[Taunton]

Euston is unique in this regard, and I hear it is became the comms between station staff, platform staff, crew (of multiple TOCs) and station control is fairly abysmal. Most other inter-city London terminals manage just fine.

Marylebone before now has actually sent trains off before any passengers could get to them, by a lack of synchronisation with whoever runs the departure board. You have to understand that reporting punctuality to the DfT is the only thing that matters nowadays. Passengers be blowed. Actually Roger Ford's Golden Whistles in Modern Railways has an equal culpability, giving awards (and their pictures in the mag) not for passengers getting there, but for the statistics of punctuality, whether the passengers are in the train or not.

 

[Starmill]

If they want to enforce their ridiculous policy that almost no other stations have, then they should be forced to delay the departure of trains to give time for people to walk from the concourse to the platform. Even one person missing their service as a result of this silly decision to prevent people waiting on the platform for no good reason is inexcusable.

Marylebone before now has actually sent trains off before any passengers could get to them, by a lack of synchronisation with whoever runs the departure board. You have to understand that reporting punctuality to the DfT is the only thing that matters nowadays. Passengers be blowed. Actually Roger Ford's Golden Whistles in Modern Railways has an equal culpability, giving awards (and their pictures in the mag) not for passengers getting there, but for the statistics of punctuality, whether the passengers are in the train or not.

Has anyone sent Mr Ford some actual evidence of this happening? I imagine he'd be interested!

The inward stock for the 14:45 Euston to Crewe only arrived into Euston at 14:40, which won't have helped.

Seven minutes or more sounds like adequate time for everyone to walk from the concourse to the platform. The train's platform should have been announced as soon as the route into that platform was set, and no later.

 

[duncanp]

If they want to enforce their ridiculous policy that almost no other stations have, then they should be forced to delay the departure of trains to give time for people to walk from the concourse to the platform. Even one person missing their service as a result of this silly decision to prevent people waiting on the platform for no good reason is inexcusable.


Has anyone sent Mr Ford some actual evidence of this happening? I imagine he'd be interested!

Liverpool Street sometimes announce the platform before the incoming train arrives.

This assists with quick turnarounds.

 

[Starmill]

Euston comes up on here a lot, and I never or very rarely see any other station mentioned.

London Euston and Blackpool North are mentioned for this nonsense all the time. London Marylebone is mentioned less frequently but also often enough.

Very likely, as Avanti won’t allow anyone without a ticket for their service onto the platform as they do manual checks.

It’s still not right! I understand the purpose is to save the TM workload onboard by only having to check first and premium for any chancers, but if this is making it impossible to board other trains, that isn’t acceptable.

The same now happens with Avanti at Glasgow Central. Metal railings prevent customers accessing the platform until the train is “ready” then it’s a complete free for all, often with 5 or less minutes to go.

Although it’s supposed to ensure ticket checks take place prior to boarding, they rarely do. Keeping passengers waiting (often in a stupidly large queue which snakes around the concourse) just seems pointless and counterproductive.

Avanti West Coast are occasionally forced to abandon their ticket checks if a more than one train is boarding through the doors at the same time, or if there's disruption. Perhaps they need to be told they can't do the ticket inspection before boarding if there's an LNR train sharing the platform pair? Bletchleyite's suggestion of ticket gates and a check onboard would help more though. The train manager still has to inspect First and Standard Premium tickets anyway when they do the manual inspection before boarding so it just annoys their highest-spending customers.

 

[David57]

How would a delay repay claim sit with LNWR with only two minutes notice between announcing the train and departure?
(I think I know the answer BTW!)

 

[AM9]

How would a delay repay claim sit with LNWR with only two minutes notice between announcing the train and departure?
(I think I know the answer BTW!)

Surely the if the departure platform is put on the main destination board(s) within the minimum time for an interchange at the station, all those passengers would automatically qualify for delay repay, or even a full refund if the next train to the passenger's destination would arrive there more than an hour later.

 

[Ediswan]

Liverpool Street sometimes announce the platform before the incoming train arrives.

This assists with quick turnarounds.

With the result that arriving passengers have to compete for space with departing passengers heading in the opposite direction. This is worst on the narrow platform 1.

 

[Starmill]

How would a delay repay claim sit with LNWR with only two minutes notice between announcing the train and departure?
(I think I know the answer BTW!)

I think that you're right in that the claim would be rejected at the first line and the customer would inevitably need to appeal.

If I were advising someone who this affected I'd probably suggest they need to email customer relations directly with a complaint which summarises the facts, and then asks for commensurate compensation in view of whatever delay resulted. That would probably be more effective.

 

[185]

Doesn't London Euston have a Network Rail imposed H&S rule of 'cannot allow passengers down until all those getting off are up the ramp' ?? This alone (ignoring the cleaners) could be say up to 10 mins from inward arrival - eating up much of a Trent Valley train's turnaround time.

 

[route101]

Very likely, as Avanti won’t allow anyone without a ticket for their service onto the platform as they do manual checks.

It’s still not right! I understand the purpose is to save the TM workload onboard by only having to check first and premium for any chancers, but if this is making it impossible to board other trains, that isn’t acceptable.

The same now happens with Avanti at Glasgow Central. Metal railings prevent customers accessing the platform until the train is “ready” then it’s a complete free for all, often with 5 or less minutes to go.

Although it’s supposed to ensure ticket checks take place prior to boarding, they rarely do. Keeping passengers waiting (often in a stupidly large queue which snakes around the concourse) just seems pointless and counterproductive.

I don't remember Avanti putting up the barrier before Covid, I thought they would take it away by now. I was once surprised they opened a service at Glasgow 30 minutes ahead of departure! TPE at Glasgow can be v9ery last minute.

 

[Master29]

Yes, let's save the Train Manager some workload, and who cares about the plebs who want to get on another TOCs train on the adjacent platform, and whether they miss it or not.

Someone needs to remind Avanti that the railway is run for the benefit of the passenger, whose needs should take priority.

Indeed. Given they may well soon lose their franchise I`m not sure it`ll make any difference.

 

[Huntergreed]

I don't remember Avanti putting up the barrier before Covid, I thought they would take it away by now. I was once surprised they opened a service at Glasgow 30 minutes ahead of departure! TPE at Glasgow can be v9ery last minute.

The barrier is purely a remnant of the COVID era sadly! It was used more extensively during the height of the pandemic when it was used as a guide for the queueing system at Glasgow Central.

I would’ve hoped it would disappear, one can only hope in April when Avanti inevitably lose the franchise, it will disappear.

TPE is dreadful at Glasgow. If you’re lucky enough to have it actually run, good luck getting to the platform on time! And even more good luck if you want to get a seat!

 

[Peter0124]

I still find the idea of queueing to board a train silly, I'd rather get there early (and actually board early) to get the best seat rather than stand in a queue for ages. Rant over.

 

[route101]

The barrier is purely a remnant of the COVID era sadly! It was used more extensively during the height of the pandemic when it was used as a guide for the queueing system at Glasgow Central.

I would’ve hoped it would disappear, one can only hope in April when Avanti inevitably lose the franchise, it will disappear.

TPE is dreadful at Glasgow. If you’re lucky enough to have it actually run, good luck getting to the platform on time! And even more good luck if you want to get a seat!

Last few times I have used TPE at Glasgow the doors have been opened with a few minutes to spare.

 

[Skie]

It's not an uncommon occurrence. Happens plenty of times with Avanti, people already sat on the train thanks to RTT and then 3 minutes before departure the rush of passengers appears and large numbers of them are forced to get on at the first class doors and walk all the way through the train to allow it to depart on time. Seen 5+ minute delays caused just by the volume of people wanting on, too. All well and good having a policy of closing the doors 2 minutes before departure but when you have a huge queue on the ramp and to the first available door they aren't closing anything.

Given everything Avanti changed from the Virgin days, this surely should have been one of the no-brainers.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I was at Marylebone one night a few months ago and the train was never advertised. A fellow passenger went to tell the driver and me and another guy ran back to the concourse and informed those waiting and we departed a couple of minutes late.

There are some trains that are scheduled out from the same platform a few minutes after eachother which means that the later train is advertised very late as there is no "a/b" concept with the platforms or similar. The 1730 is one of these, there is a flight of trains leaving from 1710 so the 1721 is often late leaving. They only advertise the 1730 once it's gone, sometimes for less than 5 mins

Pre-Covid, Marylebone was trialling what they called "dual boarding" in such situations, where they'd advertise the far train on an "a" platform, followed by the rear train at the "b" end of the same platform a short time later. Relied on having a member of staff at the mid-point to guide people.

Sadly the practice stopped with their first emergency timetable and hasn't returned.

 

[sammyg901]

Pre-Covid, Marylebone was trialling what they called "dual boarding" in such situations, where they'd advertise the far train on an "a" platform, followed by the rear train at the "b" end of the same platform a short time later. Relied on having a member of staff at the mid-point to guide people.



Sadly the practice stopped with their first emergency timetable and hasn't returned.

Flicking through RTT quickly the issue is much reduced vs pre COVID times, presumably due to less trains overall, so that is probably why.

The 1730 has a regular crowd who know the drill so doesn't cause too much of an issue

 

[Llandudno]

I think there have been a few threads like this about Euston/other London termini and the rush to the platforms when services are announced. It's completely unnecessary IMO, but gateline staff seem to get a kick out of being "in control" and denying passengers access to board or simply stand outside the train.

Maybe the gate line staff served their apprenticeship at Blackpool North…!

 

[87015]

Doesn't London Euston have a Network Rail imposed H&S rule of 'cannot allow passengers down until all those getting off are up the ramp' ?? This alone (ignoring the cleaners) could be say up to 10 mins from inward arrival - eating up much of a Trent Valley train's turnaround time.

No. LNR services are advertised when the inwards enters the platform, just to make sure the ramps are as conflicted as possible. They are also quite happy to advertise a Pendo as another trains arrives on the same island/ramp.

 

[childwallblues]

Yes, let's save the Train Manager some workload, and who cares about the plebs who want to get on another TOCs train on the adjacent platform, and whether they miss it or not.

Someone needs to remind Avanti that the railway is run for the benefit of the passenger, whose needs should take priority.

Sorry but the worst place in the UK has to be Blackpool North.

 

[Birmingham]

On another note, when travelling from Euston, I try to make a point to arrive before boarding is announced so that I actually have a decent chance of getting a seat as I won't have a reservation. These trains are so busy and have many reservations. I suppose the many cancellations and already-reduced timetable doesn't help.

 

[bramling]

I was actually specifically referring to the situation where they hold off calling a train, then call it just as an arrival tips out on the adjacent platform. I've had it several times at Paddington and it is incredibly bad.

King’s Cross were awful for that at one point. They had an absolutely awful habit of announcing the outgoing service just as the incoming one was entering the platform, so the two crowds would clash to perfection. Couldn’t have organised it worse if they tried. It was particularly a menace for incoming passengers as you’d step off the train just as the front runners in the scrum were making their bee-line for the best seats.

I actually complained about it (can’t remember if it was still FCC or early days or GTR), and got a total fob off reply, basically intimating that it was done for good customer service reasons as “feedback has told us people want to see the platform advertised as soon as possible” - completely ignoring the points made, including the potential safety issue of overcrowding on narrow platforms (esp P10/11 as was).

Bit of a shame really at King’s Cross has otherwise always been fairly passenger focussed, especially GN services, with niceties like station staff opening up trains early to save people having to stand on the platform, etc.

Not sure if KX still works this way as I don’t really use the rail service now.

 

[Bow Fell]

Thankfully, when at Euston, I’m armed with Traksy/Open Train Times and Realtime Trains and luckily as I am staff, I’ve got extra info as well, so I’m 99.9% certain what platform a train will be on before it’s advertised.

The behaviour of the revenue protection staff at Euston is embarrassing and I happily say that as a member of railway staff myself. I know there’s people in here that will fall over themselves to defend staff, I’m one of them myself sometimes but the behaviour at Euston is not acceptable and should be called out.

I’ve worked on the gateline/checked tickets in the past and not only would I not dream of acting they way they do, I wouldn’t expect to have a job either!

Standing round having a laugh at work, nothing wrong with it in my opinion, but there’s a time and a place for it.

Having passengers all lined up and treating as some sort of game isn’t funny to be honest.

Euston is the only place where I’ve had an issue with a member of railway staff (or a colleague you might say) I strolled down the platform in good time as I’d saw on various sites what platform the train was going off, I’d been spotted unfortunately by a member of a revenue protection who was at the top and then proceed to shout and chase after me. Trust me, I wish I was joking about this. They asked what I was doing here, and just explained I know this is my train and jokingly I do this for a living too, so I’m extremely sure it’s my train, and I’ve got a valid ticket. The member of revenue protection then berated and told me I had no business being here, and told me to go back up to the top. I said not a problem, I wasn’t getting into an argument that’s not my style, but if you’re going to ask me to walk back up then you’ll have to ask everyone else who’s on the train to as well, they just laughed said no and marched me back up. I don’t expect preferential treatment at all being a member of staff over a passenger, my Priv is benefit enough for me.

What concerned me was if this member of staff was more than happy to speak to a member of railway staff, ie: a colleague even for all they knew? Then I was really concerned at how they treated passengers.

 

[bramling]

Thankfully, when at Euston, I’m armed with Traksy/Open Train Times and Realtime Trains and luckily as I am staff, I’ve got extra info as well, so I’m 99.9% certain what platform a train will be on before it’s advertised.

The behaviour of the revenue protection staff at Euston is embarrassing and I happily say that as a member of railway staff myself. I know there’s people in here that will fall over themselves to defend staff, I’m one of them myself sometimes but the behaviour at Euston is not acceptable and should be called out.

I’ve worked on the gateline/checked tickets in the past and not only would I not dream of acting they way they do, I wouldn’t expect to have a job either!

Standing round having a laugh at work, nothing wrong with it in my opinion, but there’s a time and a place for it.

Having passengers all lined up and treating as some sort of game isn’t funny to be honest.

Euston is the only place where I’ve had an issue with a member of railway staff (or a colleague you might say) I strolled down the platform in good time as I’d saw on various sites what platform the train was going off, I’d been spotted unfortunately by a member of a revenue protection who was at the top and then proceed to shout and chase after me. Trust me, I wish I was joking about this. They asked what I was doing here, and just explained I know this is my train and jokingly I do this for a living too, so I’m extremely sure it’s my train, and I’ve got a valid ticket. The member of revenue protection then berated and told me I had no business being here, and told me to go back up to the top. I said not a problem, I wasn’t getting into an argument that’s not my style, but if you’re going to ask me to walk back up then you’ll have to ask everyone else who’s on the train to as well, they just laughed said no and marched me back up. I don’t expect preferential treatment at all being a member of staff over a passenger, my Priv is benefit enough for me.

To be honest in that situation I’d be tempted to suddenly develop a walking / mobility disability. They could march to their heart’s content then.

The various west coast operators all seem to have had issues managing elements of their staff, especially at the London end it seems. As well as Euston gateline there’s the oft-referred-to coach K issues which have been going on for decades. I’ve heard it said on numerous occasions by the northerly based TMs that the London staff can be “funny about things”.

Blackpool North is of course the ultimate in unpleasantness.