SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[Doomotron]

Siemens still list Desiro as a current product in several forms including the new Desiro Verve, a Regional / Intercity version with options up to 200 kmh, remember the reqest for expressions of interest suggests that either metro or mainline fleets could be replaced. Also Siemens has a new S-Bahn product, Mireo, which would fit the metro option.

Desiro is an international offering - are you sure they were referring to UK-specific versions? Because international ones cannot be used here.

 

[jackot]

Desiro is an international offering - are you sure they were referring to UK-specific versions? Because international ones cannot be used here.

The Desiro Verve is definitely intended for the UK market. Have a look here if you want.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The Desiro Verve is definitely intended for the UK market. Have a look here if you want.

I know it's an artist's impression but blimey, bet that (small) cab windscreen won't pass the "ASLEF test"....

 

[4BEP]

Desiro is an international offering - are you sure they were referring to UK-specific versions? Because international ones cannot be used here.

Yes, even the Desiro City is still listed, although that was derived from the Desiro ML which was UIC GC guage. Having worked for Siemens I know that deriving a GB version from the current Mireo or Desiro ranges is not likely to be an issue.

 

[nw1]

Siemens still list Desiro as a current product in several forms including the new Desiro Verve, a Regional / Intercity version with options up to 200 kmh, remember the reqest for expressions of interest suggests that either metro or mainline fleets could be replaced. Also Siemens has a new S-Bahn product, Mireo, which would fit the metro option.

Mind you would they replace the mainline fleet at this stage? The 375s are perhaps 20 years old: that would be like replacing the CEPs in around 1979!

If we have a stock and funding shortage, we really don't want to be binning off units which are well before their use-by date. The current generation of mainline units on the Southern (375, 377, 444, 450) ought to be around until 2040 if it is to last as long as the first-generation (CORs, BILs etc) or second-generation (41x and 42x).

 

[Doomotron]

Mind you would they replace the mainline fleet at this stage? The 375s are perhaps 20 years old: that would be like replacing the CEPs in around 1979!

If we have a stock and funding shortage, we really don't want to be binning off units which are well before their use-by date. The current generation of mainline units on the Southern (375, 377, 444, 450) ought to be around until 2040 if it is to last as long as the first-generation (CORs, BILs etc) or second-generation (41x and 42x).

I find this quite unlikely. Sure, the 360s and 379s were replaced but only as part of a much larger order which replaced Mark 3 and PEP units which did need replacing. They could have got away with keeping the 360s and 379s but that's a debate for another thread. However, the 375s and SE 377s are a large fleet which make up the majority of Southeastern's suburban workings. Unless the Electrostars really needed replacing I'd find it hard for Southeatern to justify it - at best they'd get away with replacing the 377s and 465/9s with inner suburban Networker replacements. That said we'll have to wait and see how the Networker replacement is handled. The 465/9 are quite unsuitable for the mainline services they run (and the normal Networkers that sometimes join them are even more unsuitable) but a 465/9 and 377 replacement may have to juggle being both metro and suburban units. In many ways the 377s and 465/9s are equivalent fleets, with the 377s effectively replacing them on many of the services they were refurbished for.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

I find this quite unlikely. Sure, the 360s and 379s were replaced but only as part of a much larger order which replaced Mark 3 and PEP units which did need replacing. They could have got away with keeping the 360s and 379s but that's a debate for another thread. However, the 375s and SE 377s are a large fleet which make up the majority of Southeastern's suburban workings. Unless the Electrostars really needed replacing I'd find it hard for Southeatern to justify it - at best they'd get away with replacing the 377s and 465/9s with inner suburban Networker replacements. That said we'll have to wait and see how the Networker replacement is handled. The 465/9 are quite unsuitable for the mainline services they run (and the normal Networkers that sometimes join them are even more unsuitable) but a 465/9 and 377 replacement may have to juggle being both metro and suburban units. In many ways the 377s and 465/9s are equivalent fleets, with the 377s effectively replacing them on many of the services they were refurbished for.

Good point, that could have something to do with it

 

[Halish Railway]

The 465/9 are quite unsuitable for the mainline services they run (and the normal Networkers that sometimes join them are even more unsuitable) but a 465/9 and 377 replacement may have to juggle being both metro and suburban units. In many ways the 377s and 465/9s are equivalent fleets, with the 377s effectively replacing them on many of the services they were refurbished for.

Perhaps any new build stock could have a similar spec to the 701s, I.e. acceleration that is suitable for Metro stopping services and a 100mph top speed that makes them fast enough for regional services. 2+2 seating without large tables and with a small space between seats instead of armrests, although not ideal for longer distance journeys is much better than 3+2 seating whilst being suitable for Metro services.

 

[Bald Rick]

I know it's an artist's impression but blimey, bet that (small) cab windscreen won't pass the "ASLEF test"....

compare to…

 

[ScotGG]

3+2 isn't suitable for metro or long distance. It just clutters up interior space in Networkers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

compare to…

View attachment 126909

For the benefit of visually-impaired members, @Bald Rick has attached an image of a Southern 313, with focus on the cab and its rather small windows.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

For the benefit of visually-impaired members, @Bald Rick has attached an image of a Southern 313, with focus on the cab and its rather small windows.

I know Bald Rick is jesting but that simply isn't a fair comparison....

 

[Jammy Dodger]

When do we think we would find out the outcome of the contract? I'd assume Q2/early summer, given the specified contract completion date...

 

[bramling]

compare to…

View attachment 126909

Is it not the case that the driver tends to sit further back in modern trains, therefore making small windows slightly more of an issue than might have been the case in the past?

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Is it not the case that the driver tends to sit further back in modern trains, therefore making small windows slightly more of an issue than might have been the case in the past?

I believe so (Aventra/Desiro UK/FLIRT for example, although these windows do tend to be much larger). This is most likely to accommodate more modern safety standards

 

[Bald Rick]

When do we think we would find out the outcome of the contract? I'd assume Q2/early summer, given the specified contract completion date...

The tenders not gone out yet! I think early summer is very optimistic.

Is it not the case that the driver tends to sit further back in modern trains, therefore making small windows slightly more of an issue than might have been the case in the past?

they sit a long way back in 313s too! You basically look down a tunnel.

 

[WizCastro197]

The tenders not gone out yet! I think early summer is very optimistic.



they sit a long way back in 313s too! You basically look down a tunnel.

Apologies, if I have understood this incorrectlly, but what do you mean by ‘the tenders not gone out yet’? Do you mean the deadline for submissions hasn’t arrived yet, because I think it did……in December.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

With the invitation to tender now closed, what is the most likely offering to be accepted? My guess is Aventra, and a derivative similar to the 701's (even if that flat cab isn't as nice as ours over here on GA!)

 

[brad465]

With the invitation to tender now closed, what is the most likely offering to be accepted? My guess is Aventra, and a derivative similar to the 701's (even if that flat cab isn't as nice as ours over here on GA!)

I think in the current climate the most likely offering to be accepted is the DfT say to Southeastern they're not ordering anything new, make do with what you've got.

 

[Bald Rick]

Apologies, if I have understood this incorrectlly, but what do you mean by ‘the tenders not gone out yet’? Do you mean the deadline for submissions hasn’t arrived yet, because I think it did……in December.

With the invitation to tender now closed, what is the most likely offering to be accepted? My guess is Aventra, and a derivative similar to the 701's (even if that flat cab isn't as nice as ours over here on GA!)

It’s not been an invitation to tender. What has just been done was “expressions of interest“. The tender process starts later this year.

source - the document linked to in post#1

Interested parties should register their interest in taking part, and to be eligible to receive further tender documentation during the process by responding on this survey link https://www.smartsurvey.co.uk/s/FANL0L/

Following the deadline for response to this notice, Southeastern will provide further communications to interested parties and will arrange a number of bidder engagement sessions before issuing an Invitation to Pre-Qualify (ITP) in 2023.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

I think in the current climate the most likely offering to be accepted is the DfT say to Southeastern they're not ordering anything new, make do with what you've got.

So, that would include sticking with 30+ year old non-refurbished networkers, and no refurb in sight? For the few times I've used them, it's fair to say that the interiors are tired (at best), with an abhorrent 3+2 layout, even if the ride quality is (surprisingly) very good. Seems very counterintuitive to want to entice people back onto the railways post-covid, whilst also providing a horrible experience. Wouldn't be the first dumb decision the DfT (and subsequently the govt.) has made...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So, that would include sticking with 30+ year old non-refurbished networkers, and no refurb in sight? For the few times I've used them, it's fair to say that the interiors are tired (at best), with an abhorrent 3+2 layout, even if the ride quality is (surprisingly) very good. Seems very counterintuitive to want to entice people back onto the railways post-covid, whilst also providing a horrible experience. Wouldn't be the first dumb decision the DfT (and subsequently the govt.) has made...

be cheaper to retraction the remainder of the fleet and just refresh the interior good for another 15-20 years

 

[D365]

be cheaper to retraction the remainder of the fleet and just refresh the interior good for another 15-20 years

Cor - who needs rolling stock engineers

 

[Fincra5]

The tenders not gone out yet! I think early summer is very optimistic.



they sit a long way back in 313s too! You basically look down a tunnel.

As someone who's driven 313s and their replacement 717s.. you certainly sit further back in a Modern EMU. The view form a 717 is worse than a 313 or 377/387 IMO.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As someone who's driven 313s and their replacement 717s.. you certainly sit further back in a Modern EMU. The view form a 717 is worse than a 313 or 377/387 IMO.

is that a result of improved crash protection for the driver though? Interesting that a full width windscreen has a worst view than the small window in corridor equipped stock. I for for one have been surprised that there hasn't been a move away from corridor equipped trains for better visibility.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

is that a result of improved crash protection for the driver though? Interesting that a full width windscreen has a worst view than the small window in corridor equipped stock. I for for one have been surprised that there hasn't been a move away from corridor equipped trains for better visibility.

The main reason for the small windows on a 717 is because there is a door with stairs in the middle to allow for emergency escape in the Moorgate tunnels, where there is no emergency access from the side doors (which Crossrail has, for example)

 

[Stephen42]

I think in the current climate the most likely offering to be accepted is the DfT say to Southeastern they're not ordering anything new, make do with what you've got.

The DfT will go with what is the best business case, they won't care if it's brand new, newer or the same old stuff. Phrases like "to address the escalating costs of Southeastern's ageing fleet" in the opportunities suggest the do nothing is rather expensive.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The main reason for the small windows on a 717 is because there is a door with stairs in the middle to allow for emergency escape in the Moorgate tunnels, where there is no emergency access from the side doors (which Crossrail has, for example)

OK mind block im thinking 707's !!!

 

[Jammy Dodger]

OK mind block im thinking 707's !!!

Common mistake, they are both Desiro Cities after all!

707 is more similar to a 700 than a 717

 

[D365]

707 is more similar to a 700 than a 717

How so?