Ideas for Service changes

[Bartsimho]

With the Franchise agreements in place allowing for adding for removing stations over routes for a service are there ideas users have for potential service alterations which offer either quicker routes or more generally convenient routes?

For me after scanning the EMR Franchise Agreement it seems like they could stop Intercity trains at Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway. They are quicker into St Pancras than Thameslink and this would allow connections to the Midlands from these locations without having to enter London and the crowded Termini (Also it would connect Luton Airport and East Midlands Airport so that might get some more journeys)

I don't know if anyone else has some suggestions which might work regarding this idea?

 

[VC00]

For me after scanning the EMR Franchise Agreement it seems like they could stop Intercity trains at Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway. They are quicker into St Pancras than Thameslink and this would allow connections to the Midlands from these locations without having to enter London and the crowded Termini (Also it would connect Luton Airport and East Midlands Airport so that might get some more journeys)

The services already have good connections at Leicester/Kettering for the trains to these stations, aswell as late night intercities stopping at Bedford and Luton

 

[Bartsimho]

The services already have good connections at Leicester/Kettering for the trains to these stations, aswell as late night intercities stopping at Bedford and Luton

But a consistent day service would allow for less overcrowding at peak times and the change itself would only be to Leicester and Nottingham trains rather than the Derby and Sheffield trains as well. Also having an intercity stop at all cities on the route seems logical

 

[swt_passenger]

But a consistent day service would allow for less overcrowding at peak times and the change itself would only be to Leicester and Nottingham trains rather than the Derby and Sheffield trains as well. Also having an intercity stop at all cities on the route seems logical

The stops you suggest were intentionally removed as part of the introduction of the Corby electric services. It was all explained in the franchise consultation at the time. I can’t see why they would reverse that decision so soon?

But why do you think it would be useful to connect the two airports? There’s no logical reason anyone would ever need to do such a journey.

 

[Bartsimho]

The stops you suggest were intentionally removed as part of the introduction of the Corby electric services. It was all explained in the franchise consultation at the time. I can’t see why they would reverse that decision so soon?

But why do you think it would be useful to connect the two airports? There’s no logical reason anyone would ever need to do such a journey.

There were protestation against at the time from local railway groups about the lack of destinations north of Kettering and the reduction in speed. https://bedfordrail.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/2020-emr-consultation-response-final.pdf

It would also connect to East-West rail allowing connections to Oxford without entering London and potentially Cambridge if Phase 2 is completed.
Other Local opposition at the time of the Consultation was from Councillors who also criticised the process of the consultation as well: https://www.bedfordindependent.co.u...ultation-as-the-great-bedford-train-betrayal/

 

[43074]

There were protestation against at the time from local railway groups about the lack of destinations north of Kettering and the reduction in speed. https://bedfordrail.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/2020-emr-consultation-response-final.pdf

It would also connect to East-West rail allowing connections to Oxford without entering London and potentially Cambridge if Phase 2 is completed.
Other Local opposition at the time of the Consultation was from Councillors who also criticised the process of the consultation as well: https://www.bedfordindependent.co.u...ultation-as-the-great-bedford-train-betrayal/

For people at the northern end of the MML connections to the likes of Oxford/Bicester etc are better via Birmingham though, likewise to East Anglia via Peterborough. The people for whom East/West Rail at Bedford will be useful will be those from stations Kettering and southwards - but that's always going to be a tiny market.

 

[Bartsimho]

For people at the northern end of the MML connections to the likes of Oxford/Bicester etc are better via Birmingham though, likewise to East Anglia via Peterborough. The people for whom East/West Rail at Bedford will be useful will be those from stations Kettering and southwards - but that's always going to be a tiny market.

Looking at the target journey times Bedford to Oxford is 60 minutes and 2tph. From Sheffield to Bedford is 1 hour 27 minutes per the current timetable. Add on the 90 minutes from the 60 minutes of EWR and 30 minutes service pattern leads this to being 2 hours 57 minutes. Looking at the time from Sheffield station to Oxford currently the quickest service I can find takes 3 hours 15 minutes from Sheffield to Derby on EMR, Derby to Birmingham New Street on XC and Birmingham New Street to Oxford on XC.

Running the same idea from Derby has a journey time of 2 hours 25 minutes which is admittedly slower than the 2 hours 4 minutes by current routes but hopefully the service pattern is less than 90 minutes from arriving at Bedford to reaching Oxford due to not a full 30 minutes wait.

From Nottingham via EWR would take 2 hours 30 minutes while the other routes would take 2 hours 33 minutes and with a hopeful smaller wait than a full 30 minutes at Bedford would be quicker.

For Leicester it would take 2 hours 8 minutes while other routes takes 2 hours 28 minutes currently so would be even quicker hopefully.

Upon the further Electrification of the MML it would become even quicker.

For Cambridge EWR aims for a 35 minutes 2tph service so I will take this at 65 minutes from arriving at Bedford to arriving in Cambridge.
From Sheffield this would take 2 hours 32 minutes while current services have this at 2 hours 54 minutes.
From Derby this would take 2 hours compared to the current 2 hours 37 minute journey
From Nottingham it would take 2 hours 5 minutes compared to the 2 hours 7 minutes currently available
From Leicester it would take 1 hour 43 minutes compared to the 2 hours 1 minutes currently and this is a direct train as well.

All these times can have up to 30 minutes removed due to the connection timings at Bedford with EWR's 2 trains per hour

 

[Bevan Price]

The stops you suggest were intentionally removed as part of the introduction of the Corby electric services. It was all explained in the franchise consultation at the time. I can’t see why they would reverse that decision so soon?

It may have been "explained" - but that does not mean it was "sensible". One problem is that DfT seems to assume that people only want to travel to or from London. The idea that people in St. Albans, Luton, Bedford, etc. might want to travel north without unnecessary changes seems beyond their comprehension. It may be a minority wanting such options, but not negligible numbers.

 

[Watershed]

It may have been "explained" - but that does not mean it was "sensible". One problem is that DfT seems to assume that people only want to travel to or from London. The idea that people in St. Albans, Luton, Bedford, etc. might want to travel north without unnecessary changes seems beyond their comprehension. It may be a minority wanting such options, but not negligible numbers.

I don't think it's a question of assumptions, it's just a matter of it being impossible to design a timetable that meet's everyone's wishes. The current timetable is one that is designed to best serve the largest flows; adding additional stops (in the way that Avanti have done with their Manchester services in the December timetable) is good for connectivity but extends end-to-end journey time, which reduces demand on the biggest flows. As such, it's a balancing act.

That being said, I think the main area where there's realistic scope for improvement is that journeys from St Albans/Luton/Bedford to Derby/Sheffield now require two changes. Stopping one of the Sheffield services at Kettering (in lieu of one of the Nottingham services) would reduce this back to one, although I'm sure I'm about to be told why that's impossible!

 

[tbtc]

I wouldn’t be against slowing the Sheffield - London service down if there was one stop that was head and shoulders above the others

Passengers from Plymouth /Bristol/ Swansea see their London bound trains stop at Reading, but Reading is a growing place (both in terms of population and employment), in Railway terms it’s an interchange for Southampton/ Oxford/ Thames Valley stations towards London, coaches to Heathrow etc

But what’s the MML equivalent of Reading?

Bedford isn’t a big place, the Marston Vale line isn’t a particularly busy route, it’ll be more useful when East-West starts though

Luton is bigger but doesn’t offer any interchanges that Bedford cannot

Luton Airport is probably more useful for people in Yorkshire/ Midlands (than Bedford or central Luton), but then it’s not as if EMP has attracted huge numbers of long distance passengers - Luton Airport doesn’t seem to offer anything people in Yorkshire/ Midlands can’t get closer to home (whereas people from this neck of the woods would travel towards London for Heathrow / Gatwick which are sufficiently different to provincial offerings)

So do you slow the Sheffield service down by stopping it at all three? Sheffield to London trains are already taking as long as Leeds to London trains (despite Leeds being further north) and slower than York to London trains (York is further north still) - how many stops do we have to have in Bedfordshire to cater to these three different markets?

Because if the answer is that passengers for the airport need to change at Bedford or Luton then we might as well just have a stop at Kettering instead ) it’d be a hassle but at least the long distance trains wouldn’t get over-run with so many short distance passengers as would inevitably happen if you could use a non stop InterCity service from London to just Luton or Bedford

And what about St Albans? Lovely place, connections to Watford… Should we stop there too? West Hampstead would be a useful interchange for some passengers, why should they miss out?

Removing a Kettering stop from the Nottingham services would mean an awkward 15/45 gap, plus the two Nottingham trains are intended to connect with the two Corby trains - but putting a Sheffield service into the mix would mean a long wait at Kettering

(if Sheffield services are half hourly, Nottingham services are half hourly, Corby services are half hourly and the combined Leicester services are roughly every fifteen minutes then how do you give Kettering one Nottingham and one Sheffield stop per hour whilst connecting both to the Corby services and not bunching up the long distance trains?)

Nobody is saying that there’s “no” demand from Bedfordshire to the East Midlands, it’s just that it’s nothing like as much as the number of people you’d be inconveniencing by slowing down the InterCity services and making them less competitive against the M1

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But a consistent day service would allow for less overcrowding at peak times and the change itself would only be to Leicester and Nottingham trains rather than the Derby and Sheffield trains as well. Also having an intercity stop at all cities on the route seems logical

Neither Bedford nor Luton are "cities" and the only city not served by inter-city services on the route is St. Albans. [/pedant]

 

[Bartsimho]

I wouldn’t be against slowing the Sheffield - London service down if there was one stop that was head and shoulders above the others

Passengers from Plymouth /Bristol/ Swansea see their London bound trains stop at Reading, but Reading is a growing place (both in terms of population and employment), in Railway terms it’s an interchange for Southampton/ Oxford/ Thames Valley stations towards London, coaches to Heathrow etc

But what’s the MML equivalent of Reading?

Bedford isn’t a big place, the Marston Vale line isn’t a particularly busy route, it’ll be more useful when East-West starts though

Luton is bigger but doesn’t offer any interchanges that Bedford cannot

Luton Airport is probably more useful for people in Yorkshire/ Midlands (than Bedford or central Luton), but then it’s not as if EMP has attracted huge numbers of long distance passengers - Luton Airport doesn’t seem to offer anything people in Yorkshire/ Midlands can’t get closer to home (whereas people from this neck of the woods would travel towards London for Heathrow / Gatwick which are sufficiently different to provincial offerings)

So do you slow the Sheffield service down by stopping it at all three? Sheffield to London trains are already taking as long as Leeds to London trains (despite Leeds being further north) and slower than York to London trains (York is further north still) - how many stops do we have to have in Bedfordshire to cater to these three different markets?

Because if the answer is that passengers for the airport need to change at Bedford or Luton then we might as well just have a stop at Kettering instead ) it’d be a hassle but at least the long distance trains wouldn’t get over-run with so many short distance passengers as would inevitably happen if you could use a non stop InterCity service from London to just Luton or Bedford

And what about St Albans? Lovely place, connections to Watford… Should we stop there too? West Hampstead would be a useful interchange for some passengers, why should they miss out?

Removing a Kettering stop from the Nottingham services would mean an awkward 15/45 gap, plus the two Nottingham trains are intended to connect with the two Corby trains - but putting a Sheffield service into the mix would mean a long wait at Kettering

(if Sheffield services are half hourly, Nottingham services are half hourly, Corby services are half hourly and the combined Leicester services are roughly every fifteen minutes then how do you give Kettering one Nottingham and one Sheffield stop per hour whilst connecting both to the Corby services and not bunching up the long distance trains?)

Nobody is saying that there’s “no” demand from Bedfordshire to the East Midlands, it’s just that it’s nothing like as much as the number of people you’d be inconveniencing by slowing down the InterCity services and making them less competitive against the M1

The thing is that the MML isn't electrified while the ECML is. This is coming along and it's increasing the Line Speeds as well so journey times will shrink as the slowest section of line is from Trent Junction to Sheffield. As for those from the Midlands reaching Luton there are a greater number of locations Luton flies to so it connects with that more. Adding the stations would cause the time to rise my 17 minutes (I have taken the timetabled pass at Kettering Junction North which is the first point both EMR Connect and Intercity meet Southwards and worked out the time to St Pancras). With HS2 East if it ever gets built running into Sheffield this would help relive capacity. As for competing with the M! it is between 2 hours 50 to 3 hours 50 with so the train is 50 minutes faster already. I can't find statistics on Route usage unfortunately to look at London to Leicester and London to Bedford usage.

 

[Bald Rick]

But a consistent day service would allow for less overcrowding at peak times and the change itself would only be to Leicester and Nottingham trains rather than the Derby and Sheffield trains as well. Also having an intercity stop at all cities on the route seems logical

It would not help with overcrowding, quite the opposite.

It would also lose the railway a lot of money - extending Sheffield or Nottingham and Leicester journeys by 15 mins or will cause a significant fall in revenue, which would not be offset (by a long way) by any revenue gains from calling at Bedford / Luton etc.

The current timetable is designed to get the serve the biggest markets the best, both to maximise revenue but also provide the quickest overall level of service to the travelling public.

 

[Mzzzs]

Considering problems with TPE think it could be an interesting idea that the york to Scarbrough shuttle/manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough service become an extension of the Blackpool north to york service or manchester to Leeds service.
All ways felt like an odd service for TPE.
Also, the locals along the like don't like the class 68

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Considering problems with TPE think it could be an interesting idea that the york to Scarbrough shuttle/manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough service become an extension of the Blackpool north to york service or manchester to Leeds service.
All ways felt like an odd service for TPE.
Also, the locals along the like don't like the class 68

Scarborough has been served by cross-Pennine services for decades, so it isn't that much of an oddity in that sense. Though given the placing of the junction at York running it as a shuttle wouldn’t be the worst idea from a reliability standpoint.

The locals who dislike the 68s can go and tickle though. It's not as if they have to deal with them very often at the moment anyway!

 

[30907]

Considering problems with TPE think it could be an interesting idea that the york to Scarbrough shuttle/manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough service become an extension of the Blackpool north to york service or manchester to Leeds service.
All ways felt like an odd service for TPE.
Also, the locals along the like don't like the class 68

TBH Blackpool to Scarborough is/was pretty odd, and Manchester-Scarborough seems to have greater potential, but it's an interesting idea.

Scarborough has been served by cross-Pennine services for decades.

30-40 years, from when the Hull-Liverpool TP diesels were withdrawn.

My guess is that Manchester-Scarborough through traffic isn't time-sensitive (except if there's a Roses match) so I would suggest (Chester or Airport?-) Manchester- Hebden Br- Bradford- Scarborough with the standard "fast" stops. Huddersfield loses out, Bradford/Halifax gain.
Of course this requires a timetable recast.
I'm assuming TPE then becomes 4 fast trains per hour (plus the stoppers, whoever runs them).

 

[Bartsimho]

I just thought of 2 commuter style service patterns for the East Midlands. Restore the Leicester to Burton and add a curve to go from South on the MML to this line (It looks like you would need to buy and demolish a unit on an Industrial Estate). Run from Nottingham-Leicester-Burton-Derby-Nottingham. Could probably serve about 1.3 Million people (quick and dirty calculation). Burton is sparsely served but is a big place, Building a Park and Ride style station at Leicester Forest East to decongest Leicester itself, giving Loughborough even more service as well. Maybe like 4tph? Or just 2tph each way.

Second one would be Derby-Chesterfield-Creswell-Mansfield-Nottingham. It needs a full restoration of the Clowne Branch line but with a HS2 depot at the Chesterfield end of the line and a potential connection to it would also boost traffic on the Robin Hood Line if it could connect. Maybe some line upgrades on that would be needed to increase speed and load on the line. This could probably serve up to 1 million after some quick calculations.

 

[leytongabriel]

With new trains and better performance, stop skip-stopping Enfield Lock and Waltham Cross on the Lea Valley line and give both a decent
urban area service.

Medium term , let TfL Overground take over the Lea Valley stoppers to have 4tph to Cheshunt - 2 to Stratford ( extending the Meridian Water shuttles) and to 2 to Liverpool St via Hackney Downs. Then Hertford East trains ( which are a bit of a long trundle round) and Bishop Stortford services could be speeded up and we could also have coherent ticket pricing in this part of London.

 

[LLivery]

Looking at the target journey times Bedford to Oxford is 60 minutes and 2tph. From Sheffield to Bedford is 1 hour 27 minutes per the current timetable. Add on the 90 minutes from the 60 minutes of EWR and 30 minutes service pattern leads this to being 2 hours 57 minutes. Looking at the time from Sheffield station to Oxford currently the quickest service I can find takes 3 hours 15 minutes from Sheffield to Derby on EMR, Derby to Birmingham New Street on XC and Birmingham New Street to Oxford on XC.

Running the same idea from Derby has a journey time of 2 hours 25 minutes which is admittedly slower than the 2 hours 4 minutes by current routes but hopefully the service pattern is less than 90 minutes from arriving at Bedford to reaching Oxford due to not a full 30 minutes wait.

From Nottingham via EWR would take 2 hours 30 minutes while the other routes would take 2 hours 33 minutes and with a hopeful smaller wait than a full 30 minutes at Bedford would be quicker.

For Leicester it would take 2 hours 8 minutes while other routes takes 2 hours 28 minutes currently so would be even quicker hopefully.

Upon the further Electrification of the MML it would become even quicker.

For Cambridge EWR aims for a 35 minutes 2tph service so I will take this at 65 minutes from arriving at Bedford to arriving in Cambridge.
From Sheffield this would take 2 hours 32 minutes while current services have this at 2 hours 54 minutes.
From Derby this would take 2 hours compared to the current 2 hours 37 minute journey
From Nottingham it would take 2 hours 5 minutes compared to the 2 hours 7 minutes currently available
From Leicester it would take 1 hour 43 minutes compared to the 2 hours 1 minutes currently and this is a direct train as well.

All these times can have up to 30 minutes removed due to the connection timings at Bedford with EWR's 2 trains per hour

I'd rather see an hourly Nottingham - Oxford/Reading Regional Express service (EM Pkwy, Loughborough, Leicester, Mkt Harborough, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Bletchley, Winslow (maybe), Bicester, Oxford Pkwy, Oxford, Didcot Pwky). Then let the InterCity services be InterCity.

I just thought of 2 commuter style service patterns for the East Midlands. Restore the Leicester to Burton and add a curve to go from South on the MML to this line (It looks like you would need to buy and demolish a unit on an Industrial Estate). Run from Nottingham-Leicester-Burton-Derby-Nottingham. Could probably serve about 1.3 Million people (quick and dirty calculation). Burton is sparsely served but is a big place, Building a Park and Ride style station at Leicester Forest East to decongest Leicester itself, giving Loughborough even more service as well. Maybe like 4tph? Or just 2tph each way.

Second one would be Derby-Chesterfield-Creswell-Mansfield-Nottingham. It needs a full restoration of the Clowne Branch line but with a HS2 depot at the Chesterfield end of the line and a potential connection to it would also boost traffic on the Robin Hood Line if it could connect. Maybe some line upgrades on that would be needed to increase speed and load on the line. This could probably serve up to 1 million after some quick calculations.

I'd do something similar 1. Nottingham-Ivanhoe-Coalville-Burton-Derby and 2. Mansfield-Langley Mill-Long Eaton-Derby. Both all stations.

With new trains and better performance, stop skip-stopping Enfield Lock and Waltham Cross on the Lea Valley line and give both a decent
urban area service.

Medium term , let TfL Overground take over the Lea Valley stoppers to have 4tph to Cheshunt - 2 to Stratford ( extending the Meridian Water shuttles) and to 2 to Liverpool St via Hackney Downs. Then Hertford East trains ( which are a bit of a long trundle round) and Bishop Stortford services could be speeded up and we could also have coherent ticket pricing in this part of London.

The quicker this is 4 tracked the better. 4tph to Stratford should absolutely happen. In an ideal world, I'd like the Stansted Express & Cambridge via Stratford too

 

[Bevan Price]

I'd rather see an hourly Nottingham - Oxford/Reading Regional Express service (EM Pkwy, Loughborough, Leicester, Mkt Harborough, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Bletchley, Wilmslow (maybe), Bicester, Oxford Pkwy, Oxford, Didcot Pwky). Then let the InterCity services be InterCity.

I think you mean Winslow, not Wilmslow (which is between Stockport & Crewe) ??

 

[fandroid]

With CrossCountry seemingly deciding the South Coast is only worth a token service post-Covid, I would restore Portsmouth's links to the northwest with an hourly service from there to Reading via Basingstoke with stops at say Fareham, Winchester and Basingstoke only. Every other hour they could slot in another between the remaining XC service by doing Bournemouth to Reading, so making that hourly, and connecting with XC at Reading. This is only adding 0.5 tph to Winchester to Reading services than existed not long ago, so stock should available somewhere!

 

[leytongabriel]

Look at Ilford and Romford stops again. These busy stations lost all/most of their stops on the Southend trains which gave a semi-fast service. It's pretty interminable all stations out to Romford or Brentwood for example. Could some Elizabeth line trains skip stops (eg.Stratford, Ilford, Romford and all stations to Shenfield) or would better performing stock on Southend services be able to stop additionally without unduly affecting through journey times?

 

[LLivery]

I think you mean Winslow, not Wilmslow (which is between Stockport & Crewe) ??

Indeed I do

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It must be said, if I lived in Bedford and was told I had to go to Kettering to change for a train to Leicester, and change again for Sheffield or Derby, I’d be pretty teed off.

The existing timetable as it is now, despite the Corby electric service, doesn’t work. A person from St Albans to Sheffield will, by my reckoning, have to change 3 times. It used to be 1 or 2 at worst.

I wouldn’t be against slowing the Sheffield - London service down if there was one stop that was head and shoulders above the others

Passengers from Plymouth /Bristol/ Swansea see their London bound trains stop at Reading, but Reading is a growing place (both in terms of population and employment), in Railway terms it’s an interchange for Southampton/ Oxford/ Thames Valley stations towards London, coaches to Heathrow etc

But what’s the MML equivalent of Reading?

Bedford isn’t a big place, the Marston Vale line isn’t a particularly busy route, it’ll be more useful when East-West starts though

Luton is bigger but doesn’t offer any interchanges that Bedford cannot

Luton Airport is probably more useful for people in Yorkshire/ Midlands (than Bedford or central Luton), but then it’s not as if EMP has attracted huge numbers of long distance passengers - Luton Airport doesn’t seem to offer anything people in Yorkshire/ Midlands can’t get closer to home (whereas people from this neck of the woods would travel towards London for Heathrow / Gatwick which are sufficiently different to provincial offerings)

So do you slow the Sheffield service down by stopping it at all three? Sheffield to London trains are already taking as long as Leeds to London trains (despite Leeds being further north) and slower than York to London trains (York is further north still) - how many stops do we have to have in Bedfordshire to cater to these three different markets?

Because if the answer is that passengers for the airport need to change at Bedford or Luton then we might as well just have a stop at Kettering instead ) it’d be a hassle but at least the long distance trains wouldn’t get over-run with so many short distance passengers as would inevitably happen if you could use a non stop InterCity service from London to just Luton or Bedford

And what about St Albans? Lovely place, connections to Watford… Should we stop there too? West Hampstead would be a useful interchange for some passengers, why should they miss out?

Removing a Kettering stop from the Nottingham services would mean an awkward 15/45 gap, plus the two Nottingham trains are intended to connect with the two Corby trains - but putting a Sheffield service into the mix would mean a long wait at Kettering

(if Sheffield services are half hourly, Nottingham services are half hourly, Corby services are half hourly and the combined Leicester services are roughly every fifteen minutes then how do you give Kettering one Nottingham and one Sheffield stop per hour whilst connecting both to the Corby services and not bunching up the long distance trains?)

Nobody is saying that there’s “no” demand from Bedfordshire to the East Midlands, it’s just that it’s nothing like as much as the number of people you’d be inconveniencing by slowing down the InterCity services and making them less competitive against the M1

Why don’t we think a bit more laterally. The existing Sheffield service is either all stops Leicester (Chesterfield, Derby, Long Eaton, East Mids, Loughborough, Leicester, London) or a ‘fast’ one (Chesterfield, Derby, Leicester).

If you could just shunt a Bedford call, even if only off-peak, into the ‘fast’ Sheffield then the service will remain relatively well-spread, and that opens up the entire Thameslink stopping pattern out of Bedford as well as future services to Leicester (main interchange for Nottingham therefore), Derby and Sheffield.

That’s all it realistically wants.

Considering problems with TPE think it could be an interesting idea that the york to Scarbrough shuttle/manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough service become an extension of the Blackpool north to york service or manchester to Leeds service.
All ways felt like an odd service for TPE.
Also, the locals along the like don't like the class 68

Perhaps it could be a really nice idea for them to consider making the Scarbados an hourly 185, extending via the new platform at Castleford and terminating at Huddersfield?

Drivers already sign it, and a direct service from Castleford to York would be grand. It would also absorb the existing (not good since Covid) Huddersfield to Castleford.

No? Just me? Alright.

 

[Bald Rick]

Medium term , let TfL Overground take over the Lea Valley stoppers to have 4tph to Cheshunt - 2 to Stratford ( extending the Meridian Water shuttles) and to 2 to Liverpool St via Hackney Downs. Then Hertford East trains ( which are a bit of a long trundle round) and Bishop Stortford services could be speeded up and we could also have coherent ticket pricing in this part of London.

That needs four tracking, and that’s an 8-10 year job (from feasibility, which has been done for Crossrail 2). Also billions. The coherent ticket pricing would undoubtedly involve ‘levelling up’.

A person from St Albans to Sheffield will, by my reckoning, have to change 3 times. It used to be 1 or 2 at worst.

Most people I know who do that journey, or Derby, change just the once

 

[dk1]

The quicker this is 4 tracked the better. 4tph to Stratford should absolutely happen. In an ideal world, I'd like the Stansted Express & Cambridge via Stratford too

That was always the plan after CrossRail. The Up & Down main lines were to be slewed across onto the Up & Down Electrics at a re-aligned Bow Junction so that the Up & Down Temple Mills became the Main lines. Not sure if it’s still a thing or not now.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

That was always the plan after CrossRail. The Up & Down main lines were to be slewed across onto the Up & Down Electrics at a re-aligned Bow Junction so that the Up & Down Temple Mills became the Main lines. Not sure if it’s still a thing or not now.

I would see this slightly differently.

If we assume that you flight stuff along the WAML, you could:

- Run the Stansted Express every 15 minutes via Stratford, creating links.
- Extend the NLL London Overground to Meridian Water every 30 minutes.
- Run the Bishops Stortford stopper every 30 minutes from Liverpool Street, to give the extra capacity at Lea Bridge.
- Give London Overground the Hertford East branch, assuming it is a quarter-hourly service from Liverpool Street via Hackney Downs and Tottenham Hale, with the relevant local stops.
- Then you only have to overlay the peak Cambridge flyer services, and possibly some peak extra London Overground to Broxbourne via Edmonton Green.

 

[Bald Rick]

That was always the plan after CrossRail. The Up & Down main lines were to be slewed across onto the Up & Down Electrics at a re-aligned Bow Junction so that the Up & Down Temple Mills became the Main lines. Not sure if it’s still a thing or not now.

That’s not quite right. The plan was for a new junction at Bow so that some GEML ‘main’ services could join the electrics past Pudding Mill Lane and use some of the high number platforms. In theory this would allow 28tph on the Up Main from Shenfield (With conventional signalling, natch).

There was no plan for services ex the WAML to go to Liverpool St this way in normal service.

I would see this slightly differently.

If we assume that you flight stuff along the WAML, you could:

- Run the Stansted Express every 15 minutes via Stratford, creating links.
- Extend the NLL London Overground to Meridian Water every 30 minutes.
- Run the Bishops Stortford stopper every 30 minutes from Liverpool Street, to give the extra capacity at Lea Bridge.
- Give London Overground the Hertford East branch, assuming it is a quarter-hourly service from Liverpool Street via Hackney Downs and Tottenham Hale, with the relevant local stops.
- Then you only have to overlay the peak Cambridge flyer services, and possibly some peak extra London Overground to Broxbourne via Edmonton Green.

That wouldn’t fit on the WAML.

 

[dk1]

That’s not quite right. The plan was for a new junction at Bow so that some GEML ‘main’ services could join the electrics past Pudding Mill Lane and use some of the high number platforms. In theory this would allow 28tph on the Up Main from Shenfield (With conventional signalling, natch).

There was no plan for services ex the WAML to go to Liverpool St this way in normal service.



That wouldn’t fit on the WAML.

My impression was that certain WAML services could then serve Stratford. The current set up with Meridian Water/Bishop Stortford calls may suffice but doesn’t help airport passengers. Maybe Tottenham Hale is too important to miss.

 

[A0]

With the Franchise agreements in place allowing for adding for removing stations over routes for a service are there ideas users have for potential service alterations which offer either quicker routes or more generally convenient routes?

For me after scanning the EMR Franchise Agreement it seems like they could stop Intercity trains at Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway. They are quicker into St Pancras than Thameslink and this would allow connections to the Midlands from these locations without having to enter London and the crowded Termini (Also it would connect Luton Airport and East Midlands Airport so that might get some more journeys)

I don't know if anyone else has some suggestions which might work regarding this idea?

Bit in bold - this gets peddled on so many occasions, but where is the evidence people want or need to travel between airports, particularly two like Luton and East Mids, both of which are predominantly served by low cost carriers or package holiday operators ?

Yes, there's some internal flow between Manchester and Heathrow / Gatwick or Edinburgh / Glasgow to Heathrow / Gatwick, but that's for people heading onto intercontinental flights which aren't run directly from the likes of Manchester or Glasgow.