Woking - Basingstoke (near Hook) landslip (15/01/23)

[yorksrob]

Also: while I take the point (made by another poster) about the difficulty of actually tweaking the service, why, in general, are Weymouth diverts via Havant a problem now, when the same number of trains per hour (in fact more in the normal pre-Covid timetables) have been running on the Havant-Farlington section since, IIRC, 2004?

Indeed. Aligned with the fact that Southampton main line trains regularly run on the Portsmouth direct during engineering works anyway.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Also: while I take the point (made by another poster) about the difficulty of actually tweaking the service, why, in general, are Weymouth diverts via Havant a problem now, when the same number of trains per hour (in fact more in the normal pre-Covid timetables) have been running on the Havant-Farlington section since, IIRC, 2004?

I speak from past tense, but when such diversions were in operation for weekend engineering work purposes, this could be covered by crews (route knowledge wise), being only for one or two days, but if the entire 7 day per week service is to go that way, I wonder if there is sufficient route knowledge for the depots involved to cover the entire service (ie: bodies to match the volume of diagrams?). Don't know, just posing the question?

Someone up thread mentioned Northam Depot being closed? What's that about?

 

[The Ham]

There were a lot of people on the 05.48 XC train between Basingstoke and Reading this am. And just about all of them changed over to a London-bound train at Reading. I was really surprised at the number waiting on the platform at Basingstoke, until I remembered that this was effectively the first train to London today from stations between Southampton and Woking.

Being slightly pedantic (although admittedly not from the station on that line) from Farnborough you could get a NDL service from Farnborough North (05:27) to Guildford to then catch a train to London (circa 15 minute walk between the two stations), whilst from a little further away but still in the same urban area there's an earlier service from North Camp (45 minutes walk).

 

[DelW]

Just watched via diagram, 2L33 (Woking - Basingstoke) do its thing. So it arrives at Farnborough on the DS and stops at P2. It then leaves towards Baskinstoke and is switched immediately to the DF and it stops. Presumably the driver then walks through the train to the other end. It then move back towards Farnborough and is switched before the station to the US and then arrives at P1. The driver has to switch ends again, and the train is then cleared all the way to Basingstoke on the US.

That is exactly how it works. There is no magic wand to speed things up.

If an extra driver could be made available, would it be possible for them to board the back cab when the train stops in p2, switch in that cab as soon as the train stops and the front cab is switched out, the extra driver takes it back over the crossover into p1, then disembarks and walks over to p2 for the next train.

It would be quicker by saving the usual driver walking the length of the train twice, but maybe that time saving wouldn't justify the cost of the extra driver needed.

 

[zwk500]

If an extra driver could be made available, would it be possible for them to board the back cab when the train stops in p2, switch in that cab as soon as the train stops and the front cab is switched out, the extra driver takes it back over the crossover into p1, then disembarks and walks over to p2 for the next train.

It would be quicker by saving the usual driver walking the length of the train twice, but maybe that time saving wouldn't justify the cost of the extra driver needed.

Are SWR guards competent to observe from the back cab when propelling? That'd save the time without needing a 2nd driver.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

If an extra driver could be made available, would it be possible for them to board the back cab when the train stops in p2, switch in that cab as soon as the train stops and the front cab is switched out, the extra driver takes it back over the crossover into p1, then disembarks and walks over to p2 for the next train.

I like your thinking, as someone who obviously thinks and asks very pertinent questions (as I often did in my planning days..), but in this case, as in many similar scenarios in my time, the actual (time) saving benefit, forgetting any associated cost of a second driver, rarely, if ever made any difference, purely due to the nature/location of the problem at hand - in this case the overall time taken to run wrong line for xx miles between point A and point B etc.
But yes, very valid point indeed in principal.

Are SWR guards competent to observe from the back cab when propelling? That'd save the time without needing a 2nd driver.

I understand where you come from, in days past, but for most of my latter time on the job, any reversal move required the driver (or a second driver) to be 'driving' from the leading cab of any move, end of.

 

[Kite159]

If an extra driver could be made available, would it be possible for them to board the back cab when the train stops in p2, switch in that cab as soon as the train stops and the front cab is switched out, the extra driver takes it back over the crossover into p1, then disembarks and walks over to p2 for the next train.

It would be quicker by saving the usual driver walking the length of the train twice, but maybe that time saving wouldn't justify the cost of the extra driver needed.

I was just thinking that could a second driver board at Farnborough to save the main driver having to walk through the coaches (of unknown passenger loading). Simply arrive at the signal, then 'switch off' from that end allowing the second driver to take the train back into Farnborough.

Might save 5 minutes or so, depending how long it takes for the driver to walk the 12(?) coaches to the other cab then to walk back to the front at Farnborough station itself.

How is Basingstoke coping with the extra trains which terminate there compared to normal?

 

[swt_passenger]

How is Basingstoke coping with the extra trains which terminate there compared to normal?

The 2 tph trains that normally terminate there from Waterloo aren’t running, but there are also options for empty trains to continue through the station to sidings on both up and down sides. RTT can possibly show it better than I can explain…

 

[The Ham]

I was just thinking that could a second driver board at Farnborough to save the main driver having to walk through the coaches (of unknown passenger loading). Simply arrive at the signal, then 'switch off' from that end allowing the second driver to take the train back into Farnborough.

Might save 5 minutes or so, depending how long it takes for the driver to walk the 12(?) coaches to the other cab then to walk back to the front at Farnborough station itself.

How is Basingstoke coping with the extra trains which terminate there compared to normal?

With the Basingstoke stoppers removed and the ability to empty trains to turn around to the east of the station (by using the sidings) as well as being able to reverse trains from 3/4 or send to 1/2 west of the station, my guess is that there's less of a problem then there normally is.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

How is Basingstoke coping with the extra trains which terminate there compared to normal?

That will depend on any plan put in place. From my (stone-age) memory any UP trains from West of Basingstoke can be signalled in to any of p4 (US), p3 (UF) and also (something tells me???) p2 (DF). But NOT p1. So any UP service being terminated there could start back (Westwards) without conflict of any shuttle from the Woking direction which may arrive (under SLW conditions) via the UF (London end) and cross to p 1 (and restart back to Woking from there).

There may however be 'overlap' issues that may effect any such out of course moves, depending on any plan that is put in place.

 

[Chris M]

They do have the powers:

From this 2014 document: https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/380086/powers-of-entry-web-version.pdf

It does state that:
The railway company will try to reach agreement with the landowner to secure entry without the need to use this power. The powers are only used either where the landowner cannot be found or refuses to grant consent on reasonable terms, or in an emergency

I would imagine agreement is just a nicety that the landowner cannot really refuse - else some statutory access rights would be deployed. I remember when they built a new road of about half a mile just South of Woking so they could transport everything needed to build an additional electrical substation that was needed to accommodate the Desiros. Once they had finished, it was removed, and you wouldn't even know that it was ever there.

It's not quite something that they can't really refuse, but it is in their interests not to. If they negotiate in good faith they can come to an agreement that is a good for both parties as possible, if they just refuse then the statutory access will be on the railway's terms (as long as they don't go out of their way to be disruptive). Things like if there are multiple routes an access road could take that enable the railway to do what they need to do but one is preferable to the landowner then with an agreement that route will be the one taken, without it may or may not be.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Its pretty evident this isn't going to be a quick fix and thats not NR or SWR fault but over half way into this week the Wessex twitter feed, the NR media website nor SWR have provided the "regular" updates they promised on Sunday about the way forward. I know for sure this will be consuming vast amounts of the engineers and operators time to come up with plans be appropriate if they would at least communicate to their passengers and stakeholders what the next steps are.

 

[Sultan]

Can anyone remember how long the Dorking to Horsham via Ockley line was out for when that needed similar work? Admittedly only a 2-track and only 2tph in each direction normally but I'm sure it was at least a month. The SWML will attract a greater urgency of course, but line speeds may dictate it requires a lot more work that Ockley.

 

[Kite159]

That will depend on any plan put in place. From my (stone-age) memory any UP trains from West of Basingstoke can be signalled in to any of p4 (US), p3 (UF) and also (something tells me???) p2 (DF). But NOT p1. So any UP service being terminated there could start back (Westwards) without conflict of any shuttle from the Woking direction which may arrive (under SLW conditions) via the UF (London end) and cross to p 1 (and restart back to Woking from there).

There may however be 'overlap' issues that may effect any such out of course moves, depending on any plan that is put in place.

They can terminate in P2 from the West, normal platform used by the Salisbury - Basingstoke stopper shuttle at offpeak times

 

[FuzzyDuck]

How is Basingstoke coping with the extra trains which terminate there compared to normal?

Generally Barton Mill sidings are being used as short time parking. At the moment an Exeter serve (which was 30 minutes late) is just parked at P3 and will leave there to return to Exeter.

 

[The Ham]

Its pretty evident this isn't going to be a quick fix and thats not NR or SWR fault but over half way into this week the Wessex twitter feed, the NR media website nor SWR have provided the "regular" updates they promised on Sunday about the way forward. I know for sure this will be consuming vast amounts of the engineers and operators time to come up with plans be appropriate if they would at least communicate to their passengers and stakeholders what the next steps are.

I understand that Network Rail have arranged a "Town Hall" zoom call for Monday evening to update local residents.

 

[infobleep]

The issue with both the rolling stock and lack of diversions isn’t so much lack of route knowledge, lack of crew or anything like that, it’s just down to the sheer workload. There aren’t enough people to scrutinise every rolling stock diagram through Woking and form them into 10/12 coaches. The last thing you want is for a 12 car to be signalled in to attach to a 4 car. The ongoing issues at Northam as well as just trying to keep trains moving west of Basingstoke due to crew displacement means no one is getting the chance to actually look at making trains formed of 12 coaches.

Similarly it’s the same with the lack of diversions, 15 crew depots looked after by less than 6 people at any one time. They don’t have time or manpower to reallocate suitable crew onto services that can be diverted and keep the crew within their PNB T&Cs as well as do their day to day job as well as keeping track of crew locations during the current service disruption.

In regards to Havant this weekend, I’m led to believe that possession will be cancelled to allow Hook to go ahead.

I was thinking they might cancel that.

Again your information is so insightful. Yet it is on his forum as opposed to being broadcast by the TOC. I don't mean it needs to be in a series of long Tweets but in a place where those who moan can be directed to it to read, so they better understand why things are as they are.

 

[The Ham]

I was thinking they might cancel that.

Again your information is so insightful. Yet it is on his forum as opposed to being broadcast by the TOC. I don't mean it needs to be in a series of long Tweets but in a place where those who moan can be directed to it to read, so they better understand why things are as they are.

Indeed, there's a certain level of frustration, especially amongst those who have teen-agers at collage, about the lack of alternative provision and the lack of information which is forthcoming.

As I highlighted before; especially given the level of response following the incident at Dawlish.

 

[zwk500]

I understand where you come from, in days past, but for most of my latter time on the job, any reversal move required the driver (or a second driver) to be 'driving' from the leading cab of any move, end of.

I was actually in Train Planning 2017-2022 and planned plenty of propelling moves with a guard on the back. However they were loco-hauled moves, so I guess the cab actually being available at the back of the train means they can't get away with using the guard.

That will depend on any plan put in place. From my (stone-age) memory any UP trains from West of Basingstoke can be signalled in to any of p4 (US), p3 (UF) and also (something tells me???) p2 (DF). But NOT p1. So any UP service being terminated there could start back (Westwards) without conflict of any shuttle from the Woking direction which may arrive (under SLW conditions) via the UF (London end) and cross to p 1 (and restart back to Woking from there).

I was almost certain Basingstoke had every movement physically possible signalled, and as luck would have it Open Train Times proves you can get from the UF to P1, heres 1Z64 approaching BE420:

And crossing the junction to BE156:

 

[444045]

I speak from past tense, but when such diversions were in operation for weekend engineering work purposes, this could be covered by crews (route knowledge wise), being only for one or two days, but if the entire 7 day per week service is to go that way, I wonder if there is sufficient route knowledge for the depots involved to cover the entire service (ie: bodies to match the volume of diagrams?). Don't know, just posing the question?

Someone up thread mentioned Northam Depot being closed? What's that about?

Yes Northam Depot has been closed since last Thursday evening from approx 2000 with a dead short, in order to get some power back
to the depot they have had to cross feed the substations and only late yesterday where they able to reopen although the berthing sidings
arent juiced currently and so not cause to much current to be pulled at one time, only 1 unit can take power and then in power reduction mode only. The component that broke has had to be ordered and could take between 10 and 12 weeks to arrive as it has to be made.
The other problem is that units havent been able to return to Northam for exams and other scheduled maintanance work and are now
stuck in other depots and berthing sidings awaiting movement to Northam so this will mean a knock on effect of potential short train
formations as a result.

Hope that answers your question.....

 

[quartile]

Has the choice to run a 90min woking to basingstoke service come at the expense of running 2tph from Farnborough to Waterloo? Is this driven by not being able to provide rail replacement coaches?

 

[The Ham]

Most of the local school bus/coach operators are already approved (there is a process you must go through first to become a supplier) contractors for First Travel Solutions and regularly seen on rail replacements at weekends anyway.

But even the school-only bus operators with just morning/afternoon work would still be needed elsewhere for a few hours morning and afternoon, plus a middle of the day break for their drivers to comply with driving hours regulations, so it’d be questionable how much use you’d get out of them anyway. Maybe 0930-1330, and probably not much later as after school runs (which can often see a run for a school finishing about 1500 followed by a college run an hour or two later) the drivers would be limited how much more they could do before they’d be thinking about rest period for work the next day.

There may well be some casual drivers on some’s books available, or a bit of spare winter capacity at some coach operators, but one can only presume if they wanted to set up a rail replacement bus operation then they’d have thought to phone bus companies.

Remind me how many rail replacement buses are currently running and so how much of an improvement a few extra services would make it?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The other problem is that units havent been able to return to Northam for exams and other scheduled maintanance work and are now
stuck in other depots and berthing sidings awaiting movement to Northam so this will mean a knock on effect of potential short train
formations as a result.

Hope that answers your question.....

Certainly does. One or two days can be worked around but any longer and maintenance schedules start to take a dive off that old familiar cliff face, unless an alternative location can step in to the breach...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes Northam Depot has been closed since last Thursday evening from approx 2000 with a dead short, in order to get some power back
to the depot they have had to cross feed the substations and only late yesterday where they able to reopen although the berthing sidings
arent juiced currently and so not cause to much current to be pulled at one time, only 1 unit can take power and then in power reduction mode only. The component that broke has had to be ordered and could take between 10 and 12 weeks to arrive as it has to be made.
The other problem is that units havent been able to return to Northam for exams and other scheduled maintanance work and are now
stuck in other depots and berthing sidings awaiting movement to Northam so this will mean a knock on effect of potential short train
formations as a result.

Hope that answers your question.....

This is pretty significant impact on availability of stock and whilst ive seen a reference to this earlier up the thread much appreciated for exposing the issues in play. Shame SWR aren't communicating this - might be a Siemens issue but affects passengers

 

[Flange Squeal]

Remind me how many rail replacement buses are currently running and so how much of an improvement a few extra services would make it?

Several, in position to respond to issues such as yesterday's failure of the points at Farnborough. An hourly Woking to Basingstoke stopping service provided by say four 53 seater coaches is not going to be able to even remotely meet the requirements of commuter stations used to more frequent 8-12 coach trains, so all you do is promise something you can't deliver and strand huge number of people in the freezing cold as they can't board, many of which likely would have just gone to another local station to catch a train (like they are doing now). Obviously not everyone has that luxury, but you can't exactly dictate who can and can't board the bus. Had this happened during the school holidays then it may well have been a different story, such as the upcoming planned closures of three routes during the February half-term week with buses running Guildford to Petersfield, Bracknell to Reading and Staines to Windsor. But with bus and coach companies struggling to staff even their own normal operations at the moment, there simply isn't enough spare drivers locally during term time to fulfil the additional requirements of a mid-week mainline railway closure with any realistically useful amount of capacity that won't see the majority of intending passengers left behind.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Several, in position to respond to issues such as yesterday's failure of the points at Farnborough. An hourly Woking to Basingstoke stopping service provided by say four 53 seater coaches is not going to be able to even remotely meet the requirements of commuter stations used to more frequent 8-12 coach trains, so all you do is promise something you can't deliver and strand huge number of people in the freezing cold as they can't board, many of which likely would have just gone to another local station to catch a train (like they are doing now). Obviously not everyone has that luxury, but you can't exactly dictate who can and can't board the bus. Had this happened during the school holidays then it may well have been a different story, such as the upcoming planned closures of three routes during the February half-term week with buses running Guildford to Petersfield, Bracknell to Reading and Staines to Windsor. But with bus and coach companies struggling to staff even their own normal operations at the moment, there simply isn't enough spare drivers locally during term time to fulfil the additional requirements of a mid-week mainline railway closure with any realistically useful amount of capacity that won't see the majority of intending passengers left behind.

Given they are only running such a limited service calling at the intermediate stations to alleviate travellers going to other stations or just driving should be reinstated forthwith.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Absolute shambles at Woking this morning. I arrived at 07:45 to see 07:43 running 9L and 07:54 due on time.

Both services arrive fairly full looking and depart completely packed with hoards left on the platform.
Even better, the 07:54 is formed of 8 cars which seems madness given the amount of services that aren't running.

Tried talking to one of the managers on the platform to ask if they'd at least manage to make the trains of 12 carriages and his excuse was that many trains were trapped the other side of the landslip. He didn't seem to agree that 3 days was more than enough for them to have moved them to a suitable position!

Then ensued a long wait for the next service to Waterloo which is the 08:24.
During which time 10 empty cars pass through headed for Waterloo and then 12 cars sit in Platform 2 ready to form the 09:19 shuttle service to Basingstoke.
Add to that 2 stopping services cancelled which impact on others further up the line.

My main gripe here is the poor use of the resources they have. A look at RTT shows so many services running as only 8 cars all morning - where is the rest of the stock that's not being used due to the mass cancellations?
Why are 12 cars sitting at Woking station for 1 hour 15? That could easily form a fast service to Waterloo and get back in time to run it's booked service.

I'd think I'm fairly tolerant of the trouble that can arise immediately after an incident but we're 3 or 4 days post that now and to not have something more customer focused in place feels like they're really not trying any more

So many incidents have happened and compounded the issue, signalling on the PDL where a cable fault is being a pain to trace, Addlestone's electric mud volcano, broken rails, and see post 290! I don't envy the folks in control and planning one bit. The Farnborough to Basingstoke run needs a Pilot and a double shunt currently, sending the stock away for an extra jolly to Waterloo adds risk that it won't be there in time to collect the Pilot meaning delays just knock on.

 

[nw1]

I realise it's been very wet lately but why did we not get such big issues in previous wet winters? Has there been a lack of maintenance in recent years?

There might have been the odd incident before, but from reports on here, it sounds like the entire "Southern Region" is grinding to a halt!

 

[Hellzapoppin]

I suspect it's the wet winter following a very dry summer especially if the infrastructure is built on clay.

 

[gazr]

I suspect it's the wet winter following a very dry summer especially if the infrastructure is built on clay.

My money would be on this also. Very hot dry summer, followed by prolonged periods of rain, followed by a week long freeze and then more rain. The freeze part on saturated ground is not a good combination I would imagine. This mini-freeze could also cause future problems as the ground is yet again saturated.