Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[Mordac]

There are people within both Abellio UK and Greater Anglia that really want to play that card but they can only play that card if the relevant people who hold the purse strings and can sign it off, agree to pay for it.

However the good news is that the people who hold the purse strings will be changing in the near future which will mean that those who want to play cards will not need to refer to some people they need to refer to today.

The DfT mandarins will still be there.

 

[87015]

I’d say more the DfT as, as we all know, they stupidly want to see cuts.

It predates the DfT cuts and was clearly stated as due to low 745 availability at the time. There is also a regular shortage of working 755s, 2 diagrams unfulfilled yesterday morning for example, despite both classes having some of the lowest availability requirement in the country. They quite simply dont work well enough regardless of how higher regarded they are when they do work.

 

[RailWonderer]

If the 720s do end up going elsewhere probably you have to wonder what that might do for the 350/379s that are going to be spare. Trains that are that reliable and that young shouldn't be going anywhere when there are far more elderly and worse performing and in worse condition on the network, but the recent scandalous scrapping of the ex Heathrow 360s suggests that nothing is impossible anymore.

The Heathrow Express 332s that were scrapped were in poor condition mechanically and did not have TPWS and a couple of units were stripped down for parts. The 360/2s on the Connect are now at the Global Centre for Rail Excellence as R&D testing trains.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

the recent scandalous scrapping of the ex Heathrow 360s suggests that nothing is impossible anymore.

That is a case of hyperbole

 

[RailWonderer]

Haven’t we heard before that the 745s were a necessary feature of the order for the bimodes as bimodes only would not have been viable? Anyway we are where we are. Will be interesting to see if Stansted does go back to 4 TPH in May, seems v little prospect of them reliably covering 9 diagrams.

I hope for the sake of WA passengers that it doesn't. There are huge bottlenecks and the punctuality and reliability of the line will nosedive if 4tph resumes, especially in the peaks and shoulder peaks.

 

[43096]

The Heathrow Express 332s that were scrapped were in poor condition mechanically and did not have TPWS and a couple of units were stripped down for parts. The 360/2s on the Connect are now at the Global Centre for Rail Excellence as R&D testing trains.

360201-203 are with GCRE. 360204/5 were scrapped: from memory 205 was slightly non-standard from the other four and 360204 had a demic transformer.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Correct, using spotter data from TrainLogger all those 720s are not yet in service. 123 to 144 are not yet being built. I won't go into a breakdown of where everything undelivered is since some 720s might have been moved since they have been last logged.

Can tell you that 541 and 583 have been spotted testing on the Greater Anglia network multiple times.

I am just wondering. Are not the NUMBERS 720123 - 720144 a more recent addition to the order. Originally 720101 - 720122 were to be 10-car units and these are now to be 5-car units 720101 - 720144. My point being that the indication that 720123 - 720144 are not being built might just indicate that there are no unit numbers to allocate build dates/intentions to.

 

[The_Train]

Has 720118 now entered service folks?

 

[45076]

deleted

 

[TheHSRailFan]

I am just wondering. Are not the NUMBERS 720123 - 720144 a more recent addition to the order. Originally 720101 - 720122 were to be 10-car units and these are now to be 5-car units 720101 - 720144. My point being that the indication that 720123 - 720144 are not being built might just indicate that there are no unit numbers to allocate build dates/intentions to.

my original point was that 720123 to 720144 have Yet to be built. It depends on what Derby is taking priority to build loads of at the moment. (which by what I can see flowing out is the 730 /0s)

 

[Class15]

How many /1s are in service?

 

[Wivenswold]

It would make sense for the 720 to taken on the Stansted duties over the 745 units which then can cover more services on the GEML such as some of the Ipswich semi fast and the Clacton services. As it looks like there will be some spare 720 it makes sense for the c2c route to come under the Gretaer Anglia franchise but that is not enought 720 to cover all c2c services. So a option is cover all c2c with 720 and back fill the gaps on the GE with the 379 units at say Clacton depot. Remember you can not fit a 720 in Clacton depot This then means the 357 units are spare and surplus to requirements but they are already 20 years old. This would then mean the GEML is covered by the 379 and 745 units.

I failed to give this plan the kudos it required at the time. The 379s would be perfect for outer GEML services and would release a further 20 Aventras. If C2C can manage in the short term with 52 x 720s vice 77 x 357s then it would work.

The only problem I can see with this lateral and joined-up thinking is if the DfT is totally incompetent and the Treasury is actually running the country.

Oh well, I guess the 379s will continue to rust then, at least they'll have 20 dusty Aventras to keep them company soon.

 

[43096]

I failed to give this plan the kudos it required at the time. The 379s would be perfect for outer GEML services and would release a further 20 Aventras. If C2C can manage in the short term with 52 x 720s vice 77 x 357s then it would work.

The only problem I can see with this lateral and joined-up thinking is if the DfT is totally incompetent and the Treasury is actually running the country.

You haven’t factored in the 2029 lease end date for the 357s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

my original point was that 720123 to 720144 have Yet to be built. It depends on what Derby is taking priority to build loads of at the moment. (which by what I can see flowing out is the 730 /0s)

Yes. I was just wondering what the definition of yet to be built is. Are they physically non existent or is it just that they have not been documented yet.

Mind you a further thought I have had is that 720123 to 720144 would quite likely come after a pause in production as there would be none of the components required for the cabs straight away. These components would have required ordering as an add-on once the original order for 22 x 10-car units had been changed to 44 x 5-car units. I cannot recall how long ago the order was changed and how long the lead time is for the extra parts required. So I do not know if that would still be an impact.

 

[Class 170101]

my original point was that 720123 to 720144 have Yet to be built. It depends on what Derby is taking priority to build loads of at the moment. (which by what I can see flowing out is the 730 /0s)

If GA is saying it doesn't need 20 Class 720s then Alsthom might as well build the Class 730s for London North Western Railway / West Midlands Railway first and leave the Class 720s until later.

 

[Wivenswold]

You haven’t factored in the 2029 lease end date for the 357s.

Contracts can be nullified if it's in the best interests of the parties involved, if there was a good commercial case for the ROSCOs in particular. I'd say the increased cost of new trains and borrowing to fund them would now be the greater issue and may seriously impact the next round of expected train replacements. Those Electrostars may have stagger on until the 2040s but equally predicting DfT policy beyond next week is a lottery at the moment, it's a madhouse in there at the moment.


Back to 720s. Sorry.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Contracts can be nullified if it's in the best interests of the parties involved, if there was a good commercial case for the ROSCOs in particular. I'd say the increased cost of new trains and borrowing to fund them would now be the greater issue and may seriously impact the next round of expected train replacements. Those Electrostars may have stagger on until the 2040s but equally predicting DfT policy beyond next week is a lottery at the moment, it's a madhouse in there at the moment.


Back to 720s. Sorry.

I have to agree. I feel that the next orders for trains will be expensive. So will those orders/needs come soon enough to use the spare 720s (or indeed 350/2s & 379s). Of course, if we were electrifying a bit more (suburban) then we could free up DMUs - but that all is for another thread(s). Instead I can see the spare 720s being used in rotation on GA and hopefully there will eventually be a demand for them before their contracted hire period has run out.

 

[St. Paddy]

720103 moved from Derby to Wembley today

 

[MDB1images]

Seems quiet on any GA Class 720s entering service, take it no further Units have entered traffic in 2023?

 

[Jammy Dodger]

There are huge bottlenecks and the punctuality and reliability of the line will nosedive if 4tph resumes, especially in the peaks and shoulder peaks.

I remember at some point a little over a year ago that if GE services return to pre-covid levels, 2-3 745/1's would be needed per day, which would impact WA availability for 4tph. They are already being used on occasion if a 745/0 isn't available (e.g. due to overrunning maintenance).

Based on discussions with family, peak services are now ~90% capacity of pre-covid levels on WAML, so an increase in services in May will be mandatory to keep up with demand (but we all know what opinion DfT would take to that...)

It would make sense for the 720 to take on the Stansted duties.

I've been on a few late evening/night SX services, which are already run by 2x720's, which are horrendous choices for airport duties given their interior layout (3+2 seating, effectively no isle, no luggage racks), and not particularly well designed for their current roles. Not a good sign for if GE need more 745/1's

Best choice would be get rid of the 745/1's on WA and give them to GE, and get the well - designed 379's back for SX, while running them in 8 or 12 car formations (the fleet is 30 strong, so would allow 10x12-car trains to be used most of the time for 9 diagrams). Unfortunately, DfT would be the main opponent to such a move.

 

[43096]

Best choice would be get rid of the 745/1's on WA and give them to GE, and get the well - designed 379's back for SX, while running them in 8 or 12 car formations (the fleet is 30 strong, so would allow 10x12-car trains to be used most of the time for 9 diagrams). Unfortunately, DfT would be the main opponent to such a move.

And DfT should oppose such a move. GA will have a surplus of trains once the last 720s are delivered. Yet people think they should take on an extra 30 trains. Just completely nuts - and only in trainspotter world.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

And DfT should oppose such a move. GA will have a surplus of trains once the last 720s are delivered. Yet people think they should take on an extra 30 trains. Just completely nuts - and only in trainspotter world.

With this surplus of 720's (which won't be as bad as predicted the peaks are beginning to recover), any idea to immediately put them into SX operation would be nuts, given their stupid layout, and any "refurb" after less than 2 years of operation would be bonkers. The best option would easily be what I suggested earlier, as the 379's are in warm storage, so reintroduction would be relatively easy. Take the spare 720's and use them elsewhere (C2C?), or electrify other GA routes and use them there.

Whatever happens, or whatever people propose, this whole fleet replacement has been very poorly executed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whatever happens, or whatever people propose, this whole fleet replacement has been very poorly executed.

Yes, if only GA and DfT could have predicted covid when they were ordered 6 1/2 years ago.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Yes, if only GA and DfT could have predicted covid when they were ordered 6 1/2 years ago.

True, but that can only be said for the sheer number of 720's ordered, which, granted, does give an excess in flexibility. Regardless of covid, the number of 745's ordered was too low for either fleet, SX or GE Intercity (unless all the 745's became GE Intercity), the 379's should never have been replaced (refreshed/refurbished, sure) as they were excellent trains, and the layout for the 720's should have been designed better for comfort and flexibility. If the 720's had luggage stacks, 2+2 seating and a wider isle, they would likely be feasible for SX operation. As they are now however, they are completely unsuited for it, not to mention being pretty poor for their current role.

 

[Bald Rick]

You have really confused me using “SX”, I read the whole thing thinking you were talking about weekdays.

StanEx is the usual abbreviation for Stansted Express.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

You have really confused me using “SX”, I read the whole thing thinking you were talking about weekdays.

StanEx is the usual abbreviation for Stansted Express.

Apologies! No confusion intended!

I'm not great with typing, so making things shorter makes it easier to type!

 

[chubs]

I'd love to see the actual stats for peaks post and pre covid.

I am 100% wfh, about 5% of my team work from the office fully. A few do hybrid. Most are like me. All of my friends are either full wfh or hybrid.

Of course this only works for office staff but I'd be amazed if it ever went back to what it was.

 

[Trainbike46]

With this surplus of 720's (which won't be as bad as predicted the peaks are beginning to recover), any idea to immediately put them into SX operation would be nuts, given their stupid layout, and any "refurb" after less than 2 years of operation would be bonkers. The best option would easily be what I suggested earlier, as the 379's are in warm storage, so reintroduction would be relatively easy. Take the spare 720's and use them elsewhere (C2C?), or electrify other GA routes and use them there.

What other GA routes would you electrify to use them on? I personally can't think of any unelectrified GA routes where the 720s would be a good fit. And even if you did, you would then have surplus 755s instead.

True, but that can only be said for the sheer number of 720's ordered, which, granted, does give an excess in flexibility. Regardless of covid, the number of 745's ordered was too low for either fleet, SX or GE Intercity (unless all the 745's became GE Intercity), the 379's should never have been replaced (refreshed/refurbished, sure) as they were excellent trains, and the layout for the 720's should have been designed better for comfort and flexibility.

There is a simple reason why the 379s were replaced - it was cheaper to buy more new trains than to continue leasing 379s. And fewer types of train makes everything easier. After the replacement is fully complete there will only be 4 train types (720s, 745s, 3 car 755s, 4 car 755s), of which the last two in particular are very flexible

 

[Jammy Dodger]

What other GA routes would you electrify to use them on? I personally can't think of any unelectrified GA routes where the 720s would be a good fit. And even if you did, you would then have surplus 755s instead.

Norwich seaside lines (Sheringham, Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth)? Not overly long (each is ~10 miles), and would allow for the displacement of 755's to the rest of GA/ some eastern EMR routes by using the spare 720's

 

[43096]

Norwich seaside lines (Sheringham, Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth)? Not overly long (each is ~10 miles), and would allow for the displacement of 755's to the rest of GA/ some eastern EMR routes by using the spare 720's

Felixstowe is the obvious one as there are big benefits for freight, especially with GBRf’s order for 30 Stadler electro-diesels.