Is there any good reason why the majority of ticket machines will not sell an off peak ticket until the exact end of the peak? In some cases the first off peak train leaves about one minute after the end of the peak and that's not enough time to get a ticket. Before anyone says that people would use off peak tickets on peak trains, you can get an off peak ticket from the ticket office at any time and anyone that tried using an off peak ticket on a peak train would be made to pay the full fare. The ticket machine could also display a warning if you selected an off peak ticket before the end of the peak that the tiket was not valid until the peak ends.
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Ticket machines
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Well I'm sure it is to try and stop people using off-peak tickets on peak trains. I agree that the machine should alert you to restrictions and make you accept the notice, then print a note saying restrictions accepted along the bottom of the ticket. If you go to the ticket office the clerk will make sure that you are aware of the restrictions. In some cases even they won't sell same day off-peak until the last peak train has departed. In my youth that was a real pain as the first off-peak train to London departed at 0930, so you had to go to the ticket office. A few years ago there was an easement at Crayford which allowed off-peak tickets on the 0928 as it started at Crayford and was therefore off-peak for the rest of it's journey. I'm pretty sure that the machine wasn't adjusted for that either.
Sometimes TVM's won't let you by off peak even when off peak is valid, for example a little while ago I tried to buy an off peak day return from Winchester to Bursledon valid at 09:00 but the TVM wouldn't let me buy it until 09:30.
Not that off peak times necessarily make any sense for example an off peak ticket from Winchester to Woolston is £3.85 (B4) valid from 08:45, but an off peak return to the next station Netley also £3.85 (B3) is not valid until 09:00 a 7 minute journey time. Also from Woolston to Netley it’s valid from 08:45 (B4) though it will cost more than the SDR to split.
Not that off peak times necessarily make any sense for example an off peak ticket from Winchester to Woolston is £3.85 (B4) valid from 08:45, but an off peak return to the next station Netley also £3.85 (B3) is not valid until 09:00 a 7 minute journey time. Also from Woolston to Netley it’s valid from 08:45 (B4) though it will cost more than the SDR to split.
RPI
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With some TVM's they will sell off peak tickets as soon as the last peak train has gone, works well when there is a gap of about half an hour between the last peak and first off-peak train.....but not so well when they are five minutes apart!
SS4
Established Member
Also what is this going to do when staff reductions bite? It's the same principle with Railcard fares before 10am.
Why should the honest suffer for the idiots trying it on?
Give a warning, print on the ticket and even set gates to reject tickets at the destination if used before the first off peak train arrives.
Given the ticket is invalid and will mean losing the money and having to buy a new one, or pay a PF, that should deter people. Some people will chance it and then have to wait at the destination until their ticket is valid, but that defeats the object and will also put them off.
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Give a warning, print on the ticket and even set gates to reject tickets at the destination if used before the first off peak train arrives.
Given the ticket is invalid and will mean losing the money and having to buy a new one, or pay a PF, that should deter people. Some people will chance it and then have to wait at the destination until their ticket is valid, but that defeats the object and will also put them off.
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That is a non-trivial task, due to the fact there is a very long list of different rules for when different flavours of off-peak ticket are and aren't valid :\
Isn't King's Cross trains arriving before 10am for FCC? They could set the gates at KGX and FPK even if they couldn't do the others. At least for platforms 9-11 at King's Cross.
As it stands, TVMs can just sell off peak tickets (and warn) without needing the destination check; the gates going in say seek assistance and people are warned then.
Why buy any ticket if it will be invalid? Or why buy an off peak for the whole journey that is worthless as against a valid ticket one stop? Either way, you're buggered if caught on the train.
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As it stands, TVMs can just sell off peak tickets (and warn) without needing the destination check; the gates going in say seek assistance and people are warned then.
Why buy any ticket if it will be invalid? Or why buy an off peak for the whole journey that is worthless as against a valid ticket one stop? Either way, you're buggered if caught on the train.
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In London it tends to depend how far you have come. Within the M25 and a bit outside it is all trains leaving the departure station after 09.30. This means that quite a few trains will have peak tickets from the start of the journey and off-peak from later on. Further out it is indeed arrival in London after 10.00, although I'm not 100% sure how they cope with trains that serve multiple London stations (London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross for instance). Oyster is generally after 09:30, with earlier starts in zones 7-9 and for some of the Surrey branches.
Failed Unit
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I think it is the old no win situation, someone buys the ticket not paying attention to the restrictions and get fined - cue daily mail. But then saying that isn't the correct action for an off-peak ticket used in the peak to excess rather than PF? I know I don't live in the London area but that is certainly what is done in the North.
The best solution is to start selling once the last peak train is gone, the machines seem to be able to handle different areas TOC, you can buy an off-peak return from a Scotrail machine in the peak on an east coast price ticket where it is of course valid.
The one thing that is really annoying is that you can be caught out with bank holidays, I once bought a peak ticket on the 2nd of Jan just to be told that I didn't need it in Scotland on the trian. The local holidays in Scotland mean that us English exiles often don't have a clue so buy the peak to be safe!
This isn't very helpful if the first off peak train leaves five minutes after the last peak train. I really don't see what is wrong with selling the full range of tickets at any time as long as a warning is displayed that the ticket is not valid until the end of the peak. If you go to the ticket office they will sell any ticket you ask for.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Nor do I. I think the TOCs should credit us with some intelligence. With the overcomplicated ticketing system I can see why the don't. But when you think about it right now you don't get warned when you buy an off-peak ticket from a TVM when the peak restriction is between, whereas a human would tell you.
But a lot of people would arrive at a station 10 minutes before the end of peak and watch the last peak train go buy an no board it.
Unfortunately TVMs are not customer friendly and this is one of many improvements people would like to see. The other 2 would be to buy tickets for the following day, many people would buy a return for the following day on the way home if they could rather than have the longer queue in the morning. The other is buy tickets for other stations, which again is useful if you had a return from Potters Bar - London but you wanted to return to Welwyn Garden City in the evening. You could not buy the Potters Bar - Welwyn ticket from a London TVM. TOC defend this because they claim if they did offer this then everyone at an un barriered station would just buy a Finsbury Park - London ticket rather than use thier real location.
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Could a suggestion be that on the top orange bar of tickets it prints 'not valid on trains departing (origin) before xxxx' or similar?
Failed Unit
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Trouble is that the XC restriction may vary.
You have the simple not valid before 0930
Then you have the not valid before 0930 and between 1630 and 1830.
But them you get the not valid before 0930 and between 1630 and 1830 unless you are travelling via a station which is painted pink etc, etc.
A could of the sations painted pink are the Scotrail, Edinburgh - Glasgow the restriction ends earlier on the Shotts route and London - Scotland super off-peak is valid via Euston but not Kings Cross after 1459.
Could get complex just to print on the ticket, but would probably be perfect for 90% of tickets sold!
You have the simple not valid before 0930
Then you have the not valid before 0930 and between 1630 and 1830.
But them you get the not valid before 0930 and between 1630 and 1830 unless you are travelling via a station which is painted pink etc, etc.
A could of the sations painted pink are the Scotrail, Edinburgh - Glasgow the restriction ends earlier on the Shotts route and London - Scotland super off-peak is valid via Euston but not Kings Cross after 1459.
Could get complex just to print on the ticket, but would probably be perfect for 90% of tickets sold!
Tom B
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I wonder what would happen in a situation on a day such as the 2nd January where it isn't a bank holiday in England - would a train running from Scotland to England be regarded as off-peak according to the English bank holidays or the Scottish ones? Or half-and-half depending on which station a passenger boards at?
Failed Unit
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I think it is just Scotrail services, east coast treat the 2nd Jan as normal day no matter where you board unless Scotrail price the ticket. Remember most lines in Scotland have no services on the 1st anyway so it makes up for that.
I vaguely remember a paragraph somewhere in the bowels of the NRCoC saying that the law of England and Wales applies to all journeys except for tickets sold in Scotland for journeys entirely within Scotland, in which case it's Scots law. This would seem to specify which bank holidays apply where.
It's also relevant for the August bank holiday, which is the first Monday in August in Scotland.
It's also relevant for the August bank holiday, which is the first Monday in August in Scotland.
This is actually quite a common occurrence. I regularly see "peak" tickets on the first "off peak" trains.
In the vast majority of cases these have been purchased from the TVM prior to the peak/off peak cut off.
I think Scotrail TVMs allow purchase of off peak tickets 15 mins prior to the cut off HOWEVER as the default screen still shows the peak fares until the cut off therefore passengers would have to change screens - not all passengers are so technically advanced esp if they are in a rush or not experienced travellers, hence the purchase of peak tickets.
Also there is a common misapprehension that there is a blanket afternoon peak restriction (I'm dealing with Scotland here - input your own area's local schemes here
- the principle is the same) - in fact most stations/trains are unrestricted after 09:15 but if you THINK there is a restriction you will buy a peak ticket. Now the TVM won't tell you that you don't need one - but a ticket clerk would and should.
Another problem is the YP/HMF railcard minimum fare for train that depart at 10:00 or shortly afterwards.
In the vast majority of cases these have been purchased from the TVM prior to the peak/off peak cut off.
I think Scotrail TVMs allow purchase of off peak tickets 15 mins prior to the cut off HOWEVER as the default screen still shows the peak fares until the cut off therefore passengers would have to change screens - not all passengers are so technically advanced esp if they are in a rush or not experienced travellers, hence the purchase of peak tickets.
Also there is a common misapprehension that there is a blanket afternoon peak restriction (I'm dealing with Scotland here - input your own area's local schemes here
- the principle is the same) - in fact most stations/trains are unrestricted after 09:15 but if you THINK there is a restriction you will buy a peak ticket. Now the TVM won't tell you that you don't need one - but a ticket clerk would and should.Another problem is the YP/HMF railcard minimum fare for train that depart at 10:00 or shortly afterwards.
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WillPS
Established Member
Try starting at Sheffield, even the ticket office wont sell you an off-peak ticket before 9am, even if you've arrived at 0840, intend to catch the 0956 XC service and are buying a Peak ticket to cover the Sheffield-Chesterfield section of the journey which is the only bit which is Peak!
I didn't think they could refuse to sell any tickets you asked for. That said a few years ago someone was using a peak ticket from Paddington to Southall and an off peak from Southall onwards and I seem to remember this going to court, the said that Thames Trains should sell the ticket they asked for but the ruling went in favour of Thames Trains.
At Taunton they tried to use this to refuse to sell me a split combination of tickets but after contacting Thames Trains I was told this only applies to peak/off peak combinations.
At my station, the last peak train often slips behind and comes AFTER the first off-peak train (which is at 0927) so there's no way they can refuse to sell the off-peak ticket before the peak has gone. Even if they did, there's only 3 minutes in it.
Penalty fares cannot be charged where a customer is using a train and the ticket is invalid due to time restrictions.
The policy where a customer is travelling on a train is to excess the ticket held to one which is valid for immediate travel (doesn't apply to Advance). This means that in effect there is no "penalty" (subject to below) for travelling on a train where your ticket is not valid due to time restrictions, as the worse case is you will pay what you should have paid in the first place.
I would say however that someone who did this on a regular basis or with intent would probably be in a spot of bother for failing to pay the correct fare due.
That's a good point, and they'd just be expected to pay an excess. All the more reason to have intelligent gates that can block people using tickets upon arrival if they can't have been on the right train (if it is possible to do so).
The response from the SWT fares team at the meet the manager was that its ok to buy at any time from ticket offices as staff will advise of restrcitions (which as we all know SWT ticket office staff know restrictions soooo well!) but from machines they don't want poeple to be sold invalid tickets. When I pointed out they often won't even sell valid tickets due to different off peak restrictions the guys told me that was only in "a few special cases"!!!! I pointed out this meant people were overcharged and was told that in these cases you could always buy online so that wasn't an issue. I told them it was wrong that they were knowingly overcharging people and they insisted it was fine as the customer could get a refund later! I pointed out that not everyone would know there was a cheaper fare available but they claimed most of their customers were not affected so it wasn't an issue...as you can imagine that attitude got me rather upset but despite my arguments that if they know there's a problem they need to fix it they were adamant that being correct 98% of the time is good enough....maybe they should think about that figure if applied to Penalty Fares if fare dodgers could use they excuse that 98% of the time they do buy a ticket.
Doesn't sound right to me. Any further info? Where did you hear this?
This is rubbish. If the ticket office refuses to sell a combination they are in breach of their franchise commitment to adhere to the terms of the ticketing settlement agreement. Also if the ticket office deny you an opportunity to buy, you can buy the full range on board.
And this has gone to court and the passenger won.
ATOC in Newsrail Express 246 said:
Print off the National Rail website where it says you can buy an off peak ticket "any time"
National Rail said:
Sheffield are notorious for not obeying the rules. Maybe one day I'll go there and do some 'mystery shopping'.
The gates would need to be very intelligent, more intelligent than the average gate line staff
There are so many different off-peak restrictions.But if the gates WERE intelligent (i.e. linked to realtime info) then they could do these things and even adjust based on delays etc.
Of course the current gates can't and probably never could do this (so this is only theoretical), and it would cost a lot of money. But, in conjunction with smartcards and better screens to relay information - you could even have the gates telling passengers what platform to go to for their train (if they're booked on a specific service) etc.
Of course the current gates can't and probably never could do this (so this is only theoretical), and it would cost a lot of money. But, in conjunction with smartcards and better screens to relay information - you could even have the gates telling passengers what platform to go to for their train (if they're booked on a specific service) etc.
They are indeed, which is why I almost never buy a ticket from the office there.
I look forward to your mystery shopping report.
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