£2 Price Cap on fares in England - Now extended beyond October 2023

[johncrossley]

When an operator runs a hub and spoke model or there is no direct/convenient bus, the fare cap is useless (which I imagine covers a lot of commuters/regular users) and it's still cheaper to buy the operators still somewhat overpriced day tickets.

Most operators aren't interested in passengers who need to change buses. They prefer to leave that market to the car.

 

[jkkne]

Most operators aren't interested in passengers who need to change buses. They prefer to leave that market to the car.

Tell that to Go North East - it's basically their operating model!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Most operators aren't interested in passengers who need to change buses. They prefer to leave that market to the car.

At least around Bristol, many of the changes to services over the last few years is based on the idea of forcing passengers to change buses when there used to be a through service.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Tell that to Go North East - it's basically their operating model!

Brighton & Hove Buses tends to use the hub and spoke model as well (literally every route goes into or through the city except the 23 which also happens to serve the universities) but they’ve also got a few cross-city routes (the 1/1A, 2, 5/5A/5B, 7, 21A, 46 and 49) as well which is useful.

 

[johncrossley]

Brighton & Hove Buses tends to use the hub and spoke model as well (literally every route goes into or through the city except the 23 which also happens to serve the universities) but they’ve also got a few cross-city routes (the 1/1A, 2, 5/5A/5B, 7, 21A, 46 and 49) as well which is useful.

Brighton & Hove have a 60 minute ticket so you don't normally pay more to change. But they haven't reduced the 60 minute ticket to £2 during the offer period so it does cost more to change at the moment.

 

[northern506]

A few things I've learnt or more my own personal observations from the Fare Cap


How expensive standard fares really are, Go North East are extortionately priced and whilst I predominantly drive - for a couple, outside of this cap, a taxi is as affordable.

When an operator runs a hub and spoke model or there is no direct/convenient bus, the fare cap is useless (which I imagine covers a lot of commuters/regular users) and it's still cheaper to buy the operators still somewhat overpriced day tickets.

The coverage may have died down but reliability and 'on bus' cleanliness and standards are still pretty appalling.

I'm still not sure who this is aimed at aside a gimmick - lets push people onto buses when the buses still aren't quite back up to a decent service (at least in terms of Arriva Northumbria and Go North East) which could quite easily put them off the bus for a long time

I don't really agree that Go North East are extortionately priced - can you provide any examples of this?

There is a maximum single fare of £4.20, which is a lot less than other operators. And a lot of longer journeys are only £2.30 - for example Durham to West Auckland, or Newcastle to Blyth.

 

[jkkne]

I don't really agree that Go North East are extortionately priced - can you provide any examples of this?

There is a maximum single fare of £4.20, which is a lot less than other operators. And a lot of longer journeys are only £2.30 - for example Durham to West Auckland, or Newcastle to Blyth.

They are competitive there because they have competition from Arriva on that Coast Road route and on the Durham side.

A shorter journey between the Angel of the North to Newcastle is £3.80

 

[northern506]

They are competitive there because they have competition from Arriva on that Coast Road route and on the Durham side.

A shorter journey between the Angel of the North to Newcastle is £3.80

Sounds like there isn't much consistency between the fares charged then.

There is no competition between Sunderland and Washington, or Blackhall Mill to Metrocentre for example - and the fares are £2.30 outside of the fare cap for those journeys.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

One rural route locally has very few fare increments: £2.30, £2.70, £3.70, £4.20, £5.40 (all adult single) on a journey of just over an hour end to end. The £5.40 single fare is reached quite quickly. A day ticket costs £5.50. In all cases the £2.00 offer represents a saving for a one way journey, quite a good saving for the full route. Similarly it is always a saving for a return journey (2 x £2.00) but split one of those legs, or transfer to a second route and it becomes cheaper to buy the day ticket, or even pay £7.00 for the multi-operator version.

 

[RT4038]

Most operators aren't interested in passengers who need to change buses. They prefer to leave that market to the car.

The time penalty generally incurred whilst changing buses usually means that , apart from those who cannot, car use is going to be so much more convenient and therefore the market is small. Day tickets are a compromise by most operators to give passengers savings over multiple bookings vs. technical and practical issues with through tickets.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The time penalty generally incurred whilst changing buses usually means that , apart from those who cannot, car use is going to be so much more convenient and therefore the market is small. Day tickets are a compromise by most operators to give passengers savings over multiple bookings vs. technical and practical issues with through tickets.

The time penalty incurred by using a single direct bus compared to the equivalent car journey generally means that, apart from those that cannot, car use is going to be much more convenient. As a rule of thumb direct bus journeys take twice as long as the same journey by car. There are caveats such as the time needed to park if applicable. That's not transport planning theories but real life experience. Once I started getting regular lifts to places I realised just how slow the bus generally is.

 

[johncrossley]

Day tickets are a compromise by most operators to give passengers savings over multiple bookings vs. technical and practical issues with through tickets.

It is clearly evident that many places outside the UK seem to have no issue with through tickets. In many places, there is no difference to the fare whether you change buses or not. Even some operators in the UK have 60 minute tickets or similar, including Brighton as mentioned above. Dublin, which is not noted for innovation, now has a 90 minute multi-modal ticket. As you mention, there is a time penalty for changing, so charging more for the privilege will deter people changing even more. But the places that have high modal share for public transport couldn't possibly achieve that without many people changing, so changing doesn't always put people off.

 

[RT4038]

The time penalty incurred by using a single direct bus compared to the equivalent car journey generally means that, apart from those that cannot, car use is going to be much more convenient. As a rule of thumb direct bus journeys take twice as long as the same journey by car. There are caveats such as the time needed to park if applicable. That's not transport planning theories but real life experience. Once I started getting regular lifts to places I realised just how slow the bus generally is.

Well, yes, but a single direct bus at twice the time may be as convenient if the caveat is taken into account. Once a change of bus is involved, then the parking at the destination has to be pretty difficult and inconvenient! (Which in some cities it no doubt will be - of course in some residential areas using the car may mean losing the parking space in your home street too.)

It is clearly evident that many places outside the UK seem to have no issue with through tickets. In many places, there is no difference to the fare whether you change buses or not. Even some operators in the UK have 60 minute tickets or similar, including Brighton as mentioned above. Dublin, which is not noted for innovation, now has a 90 minute multi-modal ticket. As you mention, there is a time penalty for changing, so charging more for the privilege will deter people changing even more. But the places that have high modal share for public transport couldn't possibly achieve that without many people changing, so changing doesn't always put people off.

These places in the UK are very much outliers though. In my and surrounding towns the Day ticket is a good compromise for a return through ticket facility.
I would suggest that the places with high modal share have quite different circumstances to the average UK town though.

 

[Deerfold]

Well, yes, but a single direct bus at twice the time may be as convenient if the caveat is taken into account. Once a change of bus is involved, then the parking at the destination has to be pretty difficult and inconvenient! (Which in some cities it no doubt will be - of course in some residential areas using the car may mean losing the parking space in your home street too.)


These places in the UK are very much outliers though. In my and surrounding towns the Day ticket is a good compromise for a return through ticket facility.
I would suggest that the places with high modal share have quite different circumstances to the average UK town though.

When there isn't a £2 limit on fares, All three of the day tickets available from my stop are cheaper than a return whether changing bus or not; with the £2 fare, two of them still are.

 

[RT4038]

When there isn't a £2 limit on fares, All three of the day tickets available from my stop are cheaper than a return whether changing bus or not; with the £2 fare, two of them still are.

Well, yes, but the £2 limit is an exceptional situation at this stage.

 

[Deerfold]

Well, yes, but the £2 limit is an exceptional situation at this stage.

Yes, and it's making very little difference - if you're doing a return round my way, with a change or not, it's rarely worth paying for singles (even 2 of my 4 local routes now have a longer term £2 max fare).

The only reason I've used the £2 single since November it is when I'm going on a long distance rail journey and staying away from home.

 

[RT4038]

Yes, and it's making very little difference - if you're doing a return round my way, with a change or not, it's rarely worth paying for singles (even 2 of my 4 local routes now have a longer term £2 max fare).

The only reason I've used the £2 single since November it is when I'm going on a long distance rail journey and staying away from home.

Round my way, normal single fares are considerably higher than that! Any kind of flat fare capping deal is bound to help some more than others....

 

[noddingdonkey]

First are doing some quite intensive social media advertising for "£2 singles to anywhere in West Yorkshire", which in my (non legal) opinion is bordering on a case for the Advertising Standards Authority, as in most cases you can't get beyond the nearest town/city centre for £2.

They really should be advertising the £4.50 multi operator day ticket.

 

[miklcct]

I benefitted from the £2 offer last Sunday on the Metrobus 270. However I still saw most passengers asking for a ticket, including a return ticket, instead of tapping on and off.

 

[Jozhua]

It looks like the £2 cap is going to have the biggest impact in areas that already have decent bus systems (Nottingham/London).

However, councils who are willing to take on the challenge can start to take back control of their bus systems - it will be interesting to see how it pans out in Greater Manchester.

Generally I think this scheme is still a massive positive and will have a hugely beneficial impact for those on low incomes.

However, it does not address the long term issues of service quality and competitiveness with driving (especially when it comes to journey times)

 

[Wolfie]

It looks like the £2 cap is going to have the biggest impact in areas that already have decent bus systems (Nottingham/London).

However, councils who are willing to take on the challenge can start to take back control of their bus systems - it will be interesting to see how it pans out in Greater Manchester.

Generally I think this scheme is still a massive positive and will have a hugely beneficial impact for those on low incomes.

However, it does not address the long term issues of service quality and competitiveness with driving (especially when it comes to journey times)

London? Given that a Hopper fare is £1.65 l really don't see how the £2 fare will have any impact whatsoever.

 

[PeterC]

London? Given that a Hopper fare is £1.65 l really don't see how the £2 fare will have any impact whatsoever.

Londoners will still tell you that it is outrageously expensive

 

[AM9]

Londoners will still tell you that it is outrageously expensive

Just like rail passengers in many parts of the UK think (or say) that their fares are 'expensive', - if they mean 'expensive compared to London', then in most cases they are wrong. Anyway, London has the worst street level pollution in the UK and far more vehicles per road area than other UK cities. Consequently, bus fares are priced to discourage car use, and in general it works.

 

[johncrossley]

Londoners will still tell you that it is outrageously expensive

The issue is that you consider the cost of a bus only journey in isolation. In general, London has one of the most, if not the most, expensive fares in the world. Constant reference to the bus only single fare is unhelpful. Single trips that involve connections between bus and tube/rail are particularly expensive.

 

[GusB]

This is not a debate about how cheap or expensive fares in London are in comparison with the rest of the country. It's a discussion about the current £2 fare cap that has been introduced under the Bus Fare Cap Grant scheme; anything else is off-topic.

 

[chessie]

This isnt aimed at you personally 820KDV at all but I dont understand the local government approach that you have shared.

We have digital signs on most major dual carriageways/A roads into town at the cost of tax payers in our instance that basically tell you how many car parking spaces are available and will tell you about congestions etc. Surely with a bit of co-ordination as a simple first step, the £2 fare could have been advertised here.

It honestly looks like a lets accept the normal approach and hope for the best, in my opinion from local authorities.

Happy to have been proved wrong on this comment re the digital signs. The £2 fare now appears to be advertised very clearly on all of these signs into Chesterfield since the start of this week, additionally external advertising on buses is starting to appear. Better late than never!

 

[GodAtum]

Looking to take advantage of this. What's the most expensive route that's now £2? Maybe Plymouth to Bude which is over 2 hours?

 

[Geordie driver]

Looking to take advantage of this. What's the most expensive route that's now £2? Maybe Plymouth to Bude which is over 2 hours?

I would have thought Carlisle to Newcastle or Berwick to Newcastle might up there? Interesting idea.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I would have thought Carlisle to Newcastle or Berwick to Newcastle might up there? Interesting idea.

Both of those are relatively cheap - not sure exactly but a single is around £7-8 on both. The North East Explorer essentially limits how expensive singles can be up here, as do Arriva's own single operator day tickets which are a bit cheaper than the Explorer (they formerly ran Carlisle to Newcastle and still run the Berwick route).

Leeds to Whitby on the 840 route is (iirc) £16 - I don't know of any routes that are more expensive but there could be some out there.

 

[Hophead]

Bear in mind that half-term is imminent, when I would expect heavy demand (weather permitting!) on some of the most attractive routes.