Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Trainbike46]

Doesn't make good good PR to have a launch, then next day have everyone commenting on social media that new trains have already stopped running.

It is more better PR to park one in a spare bay or loop platform and invite everyone to come and view it, saying they are going to be rolled out in next few weeks.

why do you assume no 777s will be in service tomorrow?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just seen someone on Twitter coin a nickname for the units - "Yellow Submarines" - sounds bang-on to me!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Does anyone know if they'll be out on Saturdays? Heading up to Liverpool on 4th Feb and wondering if one will be out.

 

[185143]

Just been on the inaugural 777 to Kirkby and back.

Very, very busy with staff and enthusiasts. Picked up a couple of genuine passengers, at least one of whom stayed on for the return too!

Ride quality seemed very good, though didn't get up to much speed. Dispatch seemed very slow though, with the doors at Kirkby very slow to release. Seats were rather firm and narrow in the brief moment I got to sit on one though, the PEP seats are much better. First impressions pretty good.

Does anyone know if they'll be out on Saturdays? Heading up to Liverpool on 4th Feb and wondering if one will be out.

The staff member I spoke to onboard didn't seem to think so, but wasn't sure.

 

[Snow1964]

why do you assume no 777s will be in service tomorrow?

I didn't but if none operate early or late or weekends, then risk the bad media. Does anyone want them tagged as too unreliable to operate all day.

Social media won't care if there are other reasons for not being in service, such as had some for months but not bothered to train many staff yet. Its hard to backpedal from bad PR

 

[8A Rail]

I've just seen someone on Twitter coin a nickname for the units - "Yellow Submarines" - sounds bang-on to me!

Insult to the 'Yellow Submarine' I would suggest considering that is all in yellow unlike the Class 777's which include black and grey as part of the carriage colours.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I've just seen someone on Twitter coin a nickname for the units - "Yellow Submarines" - sounds bang-on to me!

Is that what the people of Liverpool really want their city to be known for for ever and a day - The Beatles and football? If they've got any sense they will try to link the launch of the new trains to a future of a modern thriving city, not a song released 60 years ago.

 

[Vespa]

with the doors at Kirkby very slow to release. Seats were rather firm and narrow in the brief moment I got to sit on one though, the PEP seats are much better

That was my impression when it was at Southport, seats were firm and doors did have a pause before opening.

The seats may soften up over time.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I didn't but if none operate early or late or weekends, then risk the bad media. Does anyone want them tagged as too unreliable to operate all day.

Social media won't care if there are other reasons for not being in service, such as had some for months but not bothered to train many staff yet. Its hard to backpedal from bad PR

Better than having teething troubles manifest themselves at the peak, or have fitters on 24-hour call out in case of teething problems.

Gradual introduction is fairly common - for many reasons
1. No need to wait for the entire fleet to be built and commissioned, or for any units that still need snags to be sorted out.
2. Storage - many of the 777s are stored away from Merseyside - if you do a Big Bang switch you need depot space to store both the old and the new fleets on the night of the switch
3. If the entire fleet enters service on the same day, they will all fall due for overhaul at the same time.
4. Likewise, you may as well make the most of the remaining mileage left on the old units before withdrawing them.
5. If a problem only manifests itself in public service, you can still maintain a service with the old stock whilst its fixed (remember the Glasgow "Blue Train" transformer explosions in 1960?)

 

[185143]

That was my impression when it was at Southport, seats were firm and doors did have a pause before opening.

The seats may soften up over time.

Likely while the step was extending.

It was far, far longer than just that at Kirkby and one of the stations on the return-I think Fazakerley.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Better than having teething troubles manifest themselves at the peak, or have fitters on 24-hour call out in case of teething problems.

Gradual introduction is fairly common - for many reasons
1. No need to wait for the entire fleet to be built and commissioned, or for any units that still need snags to be sorted out.
2. Storage - many of the 777s are stored away from Merseyside - if you do a Big Bang switch you need depot space to store both the old and the new fleets on the night of the switch
3. If the entire fleet enters service on the same day, they will all fall due for overhaul at the same time.
4. Likewise, you may as well make the most of the remaining mileage left on the old units before withdrawing them.
5. If a problem only manifests itself in public service, you can still maintain a service with the old stock whilst its fixed (remember the Glasgow "Blue Train" transformer explosions in 1960?)

Skie has already explained why it was done the way it was. It was a political stunt timed so Steve Rotherham could use it in the upcoming local elections.

Gradual introduction is completely different to introducing a fleet where there are no trained crew to operate them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that what the people of Liverpool really want their city to be known for for ever and a day - The Beatles and football? If they've got any sense they will try to link the launch of the new trains to a future of a modern thriving city, not a song released 60 years ago.

What's wrong with a bit of history? Of course the Beatles will remain in the city's cultural heritage forever.

 

[Trainbike46]

Skie has already explained why it was done the way it was. It was a political stunt timed so Steve Rotherham could use it in the upcoming local elections.

Gradual introduction is completely different to introducing a fleet where there are no trained crew to operate them.

As per the post below, driver training for these takes 8 days, so there should be crew finishing the training course this week, if some haven't already finished it

Yep the plan is for the current 'ghost' circuit to run passenger at first.
As its an 8day training course that's the best you'll get for at least a couple of weeks.

I do love how the discourse in this thread has gone from "It is unacceptable and a political failure that these units are so late into passenger service" to "It is unacceptable that these units have been introduced into passenger service too quickly."

 

[Skie]

I’m happy the new trains are running and that the self loading cargo has finally been allowed on

Should be a busy year with the rollout, fingers crossed all of the effort and planning that’s gone into it pays off. David Powell and his team deserve praise for getting it all over the line despite the numerous challenges thrown at them.

Skie has already explained why it was done the way it was. It was a political stunt timed so Steve Rotherham could use it in the upcoming local elections.

That’s not quite what I said, but colour it however you like I guess.

 

[MattRat]

I've just seen someone on Twitter coin a nickname for the units - "Yellow Submarines" - sounds bang-on to me!

I feel like everything to them that was yellow and tube shaped would be a yellow submarine. It feels like they didn't look at the gnarly front end. Looks more like a Wasp or Hornet to me.

I do love how the discourse in this thread has gone from "It is unacceptable and a political failure that these units are so late into passenger service" to "It is unacceptable that these units have been introduced into passenger service too quickly."

People are annoyed at technicalities. Either have a proper introduction, or not at all. This just looks like a publicity stunt.

 

[Winthorpe]

I do love how the discourse in this thread has gone from "It is unacceptable and a political failure that these units are so late into passenger service" to "It is unacceptable that these units have been introduced into passenger service too quickly."

Par for the course. There has to be something to moan about!

 

[samrammstein]

2K26 going semi fast SDL-KIR

 

[karlbbb]

2K26 going semi fast SDL-KIR

Too many journos and enthusiasts delaying?

 

[samrammstein]

Some more points from.onboard crew.
-They're going to increase the announcement volume because it's a bit too quiet.
-The seats are hard because the foam has to meet fire standards due to tunnel running, plus the average journey time is only 20 minutes.

 

[Class83]

Given they have at least one person trained to drive the thing today, could they not run a similar daytime service this week while more training occurs, then 2 next week, 4 the week after and so on as training progresses.

I wouldn't expect everything to change overnight, but equally would expect at least one unit out every day, a gradual ramp up so Kirkby is all on the new trains in a few week and repeat the process on the other lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some more points from.onboard crew.
-They're going to increase the announcement volume because it's a bit too quiet.
-The seats are hard because the foam has to meet fire standards due to tunnel running, plus the average journey time is only 20 minutes.

Yay, that excuse again!

This isn't true and has proven not to be true over and over again. It's simply the case that thicker non-combustible foam and related options like sprung bases are more expensive. I don't myself mind hard seats, but this myth needs busting, and it only takes 5 minutes on the London Underground (which doesn't do hard seats) to know that it's rubbish.

As an aside I don't know what the seat is, but it has a curious resemblance to the original PEP seats, albeit with a headrest. I wonder if this "family feel" was part of the spec? It's an odd coincidence.

 

[karlbbb]

Watching this Twitter vid of 777049, it seems odd that the door closing seems to go to random doors in turn, not even in a cascading fashion. While I'm sure there's not an issue, it felt a little jarring to see they weren't all closed at the same time. The last door closing a few seconds after the first one will surely be totting up a good few minutes over the course of a day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Watching this Twitter vid of 777049, it seems odd that the door closing seems to go to random doors in turn, not even in a cascading fashion. While I'm sure there's not an issue, it felt a little jarring to see they weren't all closed at the same time. The last door closing a few seconds after the first one will surely be totting up a good few minutes over the course of a day.

The ones that closed sooner will likely be on a timer to keep the aircon in. You see the same thing on newer stock all over the place.

For a DOO operation as it basically is, that's slow and clunky, though. Maybe they'll be a bit quicker when they're used to it? On most DOO operations the release is pressed pretty much as the wheels stop turning and power is taken almost immediately after interlock.

 

[samrammstein]

Also according to onboard staff you can 'pre-arm' the doors to open by pressing the button before the train stops. The will then open immediately after they are released.

 

[Trainbike46]

Watching this Twitter vid of 777049, it seems odd that the door closing seems to go to random doors in turn, not even in a cascading fashion. While I'm sure there's not an issue, it felt a little jarring to see they weren't all closed at the same time. The last door closing a few seconds after the first one will surely be totting up a good few minutes over the course of a day.

This is probably a case of the 777s being fitted with automatically closing doors to retain heat (or cold in summer) while at stations. If they get closed to make ready for departure, all doors will close at the same time.

(I don't know for a fact if this is the case, but it is a common system fitted to Stadler trains, and would explain the seemingly random closing of doors. Someone with actual engineering knowledge of the trains will be able to confirm)

 

[43096]

Also according to onboard staff you can 'pre-arm' the doors to open by pressing the button before the train stops. The will then open immediately after they are released.

Which is used commonly on Stadler stock in mainland Europe. Good to see it here.

 

[karlbbb]

Thanks @Bletchleyite @Trainbike46 that certainly makes sense!

On a related note - do the trains run on a fixed temperature set point, and is that changeable by the driver? I'm hoping the trains won't fall into the trap of just blasting A/C in the summer and heat in the winter. Ideally you'd aim for a lower temperature over winter (say 16-17C) due to people mostly being wrapped up in big coats, and aim for something like 21-22C over summer due to people wearing (sometimes much) less clothing. This also means less energy usage overall.

 

[43096]

On a related note - do the trains run on a fixed temperature set point, and is that changeable by the driver? I'm hoping the trains won't fall into the trap of just blasting A/C in the summer and heat in the winter. Ideally you'd aim for a lower temperature over winter (say 16-17C) due to people mostly being wrapped up in big coats, and aim for something like 21-22C over summer due to people wearing (sometimes much) less clothing. This also means less energy usage overall.

Other way round. They should be set warmer in winter and cooler in summer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I've noticed on photos of these from above is that there's a lot of exposed wiring and other kit on the roof of the middle two coaches (the outer ones appear to have it covered by fairings). Is this not a bit vulnerable to the inevitable brickings etc? Presumably it's kit relocated from underneath due to the lower floor?

 

[D821]

One thing I've noticed on photos of these from above is that there's a lot of exposed wiring and other kit on the roof of the middle two coaches (the outer ones appear to have it covered by fairings). Is this not a bit vulnerable to the inevitable brickings etc? Presumably it's kit relocated from underneath due to the lower floor?

I thought the same the other day when I saw some photos. I'm guessing there's a reason for it, though the roof does look like a bit of a dog's breakfast compared to the rest of the unit.