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Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

61653 HTAFC

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They will all have batteries. I think the OP is referring to the batteries they have on board to allow them to move round the depot without a third rail, not the units with battery packs for operation to Headbolt Lane.
I would expect the depot batteries would be fine for getting over shortish dead-spots at low speed, but chances are that if the third-rail is iced over in one place it probably is elsewhere too.

A 73 with a flamethrower would sort it though! ;)
 
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karlbbb

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They will all have batteries. I think the OP is referring to the batteries they have on board to allow them to move round the depot without a third rail, not the units with battery packs for operation to Headbolt Lane.
No, I mistakenly thought all 777 were to be converted to IPEMU but this is not the case :) just the 7 that will be used primary on the Kirkby line. The question still stands though - can we assume the Kirkby line will fare slightly better in icy conditions?
 

Parjon

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I recall in not so long ago yesteryear Merseyrail ran trains across the network through the night on days when icing up was a risk, keeping the rail ice free enough.

No doubt cost savings means this doesn't happen.

How might the new trains perform? I doubt any different when faced with an ice coating over the third rail.

And I wonder how tolerant they will be of arcing. The old units don't care about it.
 

MattRat

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I recall in not so long ago yesteryear Merseyrail ran trains across the network through the night on days when icing up was a risk, keeping the rail ice free enough.

No doubt cost savings means this doesn't happen.

How might the new trains perform? I doubt any different when faced with an ice coating over the third rail.

And I wonder how tolerant they will be of arcing. The old units don't care about it.
Isn't one of the things that cause arcing the units struggling to get around tight corners, like in the tunnels? Which the 777s have been specifically designed around, with shorter carriages.
 

Grumpy Git

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No doubt cost savings means this doesn't happen.

How might the new trains perform? I doubt any different when faced with an ice coating over the third rail.

And I wonder how tolerant they will be of arcing. The old units don't care about it.

On 10th December last year, I was on an early morning train from Hunts Cross to Southport just after it had come a very heavy downpour of wet snow, (when the snowflakes are clumped together the size of your hand).

The third rail was absolutely covered with the stuff, I assume we must have been the first service after the downpour? I'm surprised the train didn't break-down given the firework display off the pick-up. You needed welding goggles to look out of the window and the train was lurching such was the loss of continuity with the supply.
 

Skie

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I recall in not so long ago yesteryear Merseyrail ran trains across the network through the night on days when icing up was a risk, keeping the rail ice free enough.

No doubt cost savings means this doesn't happen.
Nope, this is still done sometimes. Some hardy souls on both sides of the river running back and forth in the dead of night to hopefully keep the 3rd rail somewhat usable.
 
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Ribbleman

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I recall in not so long ago yesteryear Merseyrail ran trains across the network through the night on days when icing up was a risk, keeping the rail ice free enough.

No doubt cost savings means this doesn't happen.

How might the new trains perform? I doubt any different when faced with an ice coating over the third rail.

And I wonder how tolerant they will be of arcing. The old units don't care about it.
The first 8 Class 507s were fitted with some form of de-icing equipment, though it was removed some years ago in favour of running trains periodically through the night. These days there does not seem to be the same degree of determination to fund the resources to keep the service going. In my recollection, the previous generation of Class 502 units were less vulnerable to the effects of an icy 3rd rail. Maybe it was their extra weight, though I have seen a photo of one in service in very wintry conditions piloted by an 8F steam loco. Now that would be a sight to see.
 

_toommm_

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In this case they’ve changed the first service on most lines (if not all of the first services) tomorrow to run ECS to hopefully clear the ice.
 

baldyman26

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Network Rail treat the tracks, question has to be why this isn't working. Merseyrail wouldn't cancel services if they could avoid it
 

Liverpool 507

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Network Rail treat the tracks, question has to be why this isn't working. Merseyrail wouldn't cancel services if they could avoid it
Network Rail moved from an oil based de-icer fluid to water based anti-ice liquid two years ago.

With the 777s having heated shoes (and more of them than a 50X), you’d hope there may be an improvement in these conditions in the future.
 

MattRat

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Network Rail moved from an oil based de-icer fluid to water based anti-ice liquid two years ago.

With the 777s having heated shoes (and more of them than a 50X), you’d hope there may be an improvement in these conditions in the future.
Props to Stadler for making such well designed units.
 

baldyman26

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Heated shoes won't stop ice forming though, the trains will still encounter these issues unless the rails are treated
 

M28361M

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I don't know whether I'm reading too much into this, but on RealTimeTrains up to 20th January, the testing paths are:
0927 Kirkdale to Kirkby
0943 Kirkby to Liverpool
1005 Liverpool to Kirkby
1028 Kirkby to Liverpool
1050 Liverpool to Kirkby
...and so on, until the 1628 Kirkby to Kirkdale depot.

However, on 23rd January, those ECS paths are still in until the 1050 from Liverpool Central to Kirkby, which is shown as a passenger working, as are all subsequent workings up until the 1628 departure from Kirkby, which is still cancelled in favour of an ECS working to Kirkdale depot.

Could it be that they are aiming for the 1050 Liverpool Central to Kirkby as the first public working, which then stays on that diagram until 1628?

All speculation on my part though.
 

Parjon

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Tbh it may well be, but introducing a few services on the Kirkby line hardly counts as introducing them into passenger service in my book!!

Even if all Kirkby services were switched over, the vast majority of passengers will still only get to look at the outside of a new train as they wait for their old one. Unless they fancy visiting Kirkby...
 

Skie

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Tbh it may well be, but introducing a few services on the Kirkby line hardly counts as introducing them into passenger service in my book!!

Even if all Kirkby services were switched over, the vast majority of passengers will still only get to look at the outside of a new train as they wait for their old one. Unless they fancy visiting Kirkby...
Southport passengers could always jump on between Sandhills and Central if so inclined. But 1 train taking passengers is classed as being in passenger service cunningly enough ;)
 

busestrains

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Does anyone know what exactly is the agreement regarding Guards on these new class 777 trains? There seems to be very little information about what exact method was agreed?

Will the Guard be guaranteed onboard? Will it still be full Guard control where the Guard both opens and closes the doors and dispatches the train? Or will it be the AGA Guard and SE OBM method where there is a guaranteed second person onboard but they do not operate the doors or dispatch the train? Or will it be the Scotrail TE method where they are booked for each train but not guaranteed? Or will it be the SN OBS method where they are booked for each train but not guaranteed and additionally look out at each stop and can put their key in to stop the door from closing? Or another method instead? From looking at the videos they do not appear to have had Guard panels installed? Unless i can not see them?

Also will the Guards remain non commercial? Or will they start to check and sell tickets? I think there was a plan for them to do penalty fares but i wonder if that got scrapped? Has this been decided on yet?
 

Liverpool 507

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Does anyone know what exactly is the agreement regarding Guards on these new class 777 trains? There seems to be very little information about what exact method was agreed?

Will the Guard be guaranteed onboard? Will it still be full Guard control where the Guard both opens and closes the doors and dispatches the train? Or will it be the AGA Guard and SE OBM method where there is a guaranteed second person onboard but they do not operate the doors or dispatch the train? Or will it be the Scotrail TE method where they are booked for each train but not guaranteed? Or will it be the SN OBS method where they are booked for each train but not guaranteed and additionally look out at each stop and can put their key in to stop the door from closing? Or another method instead? From looking at the videos they do not appear to have had Guard panels installed? Unless i can not see them?

Also will the Guards remain non commercial? Or will they start to check and sell tickets? I think there was a plan for them to do penalty fares but i wonder if that got scrapped? Has this been decided on yet?
There are Train Manager vacancies on the Merseyrail website for Southport, Kirkdale and Birkenhead Central. This is the first time Guards vacancies have been advertised as TM. Looking at the job description, it looks virtually the same as the Guards description.
 

Bletchleyite

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There are Train Manager vacancies on the Merseyrail website for Southport, Kirkdale and Birkenhead Central. This is the first time Guards vacancies have been advertised as TM. Looking at the job description, it looks virtually the same as the Guards description.


In my understanding:

1. Guards will still be safety critical and mandatory on all services.
2. They are not involved in door release, and act as a kind of dispatcher for departure, whereby they check the platform then tap a keyfob to confirm station duties complete, after which the driver departs as per DOO using cameras.

It's a very weird hybrid, a bit OBS-esque but with units designed for it from the start, but is potentially the safest method of working in the UK other than where platform dispatchers are present, as two pairs of eyes check for e.g. someone leaning on the train at every station.

I'm not totally sure about revenue, but if Merseyrail ever get out of the dark ages and start doing e-tickets I suspect they'll end up scanning to prevent refunds.
 

busestrains

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There are Train Manager vacancies on the Merseyrail website for Southport, Kirkdale and Birkenhead Central. This is the first time Guards vacancies have been advertised as TM. Looking at the job description, it looks virtually the same as the Guards description.
In my understanding:

1. Guards will still be safety critical and mandatory on all services.
2. They are not involved in door release, and act as a kind of dispatcher for departure, whereby they check the platform then tap a keyfob to confirm station duties complete, after which the driver departs as per DOO using cameras.

It's a very weird hybrid, a bit OBS-esque but with units designed for it from the start, but is potentially the safest method of working in the UK other than where platform dispatchers are present, as two pairs of eyes check for e.g. someone leaning on the train at every station.

I'm not totally sure about revenue, but if Merseyrail ever get out of the dark ages and start doing e-tickets I suspect they'll end up scanning to prevent refunds.
Many thanks for the information. That is interesting to hear. It is very disappointing they are introducing the ridiculous "Train Manager" job title. I hate this job title so much but so many TOCs seem to be using it these days. A "Train Manager" sounds like someone who is sitting in the head office at a desk behind a computer running and managing the train company. A "Train Manager" does not sound like someone who works onboard trains. They ought to have kept the title "Guard" which is much better.

I suppose that leaves SWR (and Irish Rail for their tiny amount of services that require them) the only train companies left that use the title "Guard" officially. Call me old fashioned but i like the title "Guard" the best.

So the tapping the key fob thing to confirm station duties are complete sounds like it is basically an NFC thing like an ITSO smartcard. If so that sounds like a nightmare for when they stop working or have faults. I have come across so many broken smartcard readers at stations over the years so i hope we do not have issues with trains being cancelled due to faults key fob readers. They ought to have fitted a simple button or key switch instead.

I suppose a better method would have been the one used on DMUs and EMUs in Eastern Europe (eg, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, etc) where the Guard simply waves a flag or baton towards the Driver to confirm platform duties are complete. The Driver sees this by leaning out of the windows or looking on a mirror or CCTV monitor. Then the Guard steps back in and the Driver closes the doors. So the Guard tells the Driver when platform duties are complete and the Driver is responsible once the doors are closed. So this is basically the same exact as the proposed Merseyrail one but much more reliable as it still works if the key fob reader is broken. I think Merseyrail should have chose this method instead.
 

MattRat

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So the tapping the key fob thing to confirm station duties are complete sounds like it is basically an NFC thing like an ITSO smartcard. If so that sounds like a nightmare for when they stop working or have faults. I have come across so many broken smartcard readers at stations over the years so i hope we do not have issues with trains being cancelled due to faults key fob readers. They ought to have fitted a simple button or key switch instead.

I suppose a better method would have been the one used on DMUs and EMUs in Eastern Europe (eg, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, etc) where the Guard simply waves a flag or baton towards the Driver to confirm platform duties are complete. The Driver sees this by leaning out of the windows or looking on a mirror or CCTV monitor. Then the Guard steps back in and the Driver closes the doors. So the Guard tells the Driver when platform duties are complete and the Driver is responsible once the doors are closed. So this is basically the same exact as the proposed Merseyrail one but much more reliable as it still works if the key fob reader is broken. I think Merseyrail should have chose this method instead.
Why not both? Then the baton can simply be a backup to the card reader.
 

hacman

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So the tapping the key fob thing to confirm station duties are complete sounds like it is basically an NFC thing like an ITSO smartcard. If so that sounds like a nightmare for when they stop working or have faults. I have come across so many broken smartcard readers at stations over the years so i hope we do not have issues with trains being cancelled due to faults key fob readers. They ought to have fitted a simple button or key switch instead.

I suppose a better method would have been the one used on DMUs and EMUs in Eastern Europe (eg, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, etc) where the Guard simply waves a flag or baton towards the Driver to confirm platform duties are complete. The Driver sees this by leaning out of the windows or looking on a mirror or CCTV monitor. Then the Guard steps back in and the Driver closes the doors. So the Guard tells the Driver when platform duties are complete and the Driver is responsible once the doors are closed. So this is basically the same exact as the proposed Merseyrail one but much more reliable as it still works if the key fob reader is broken. I think Merseyrail should have chose this method instead.

I agree with the idea of keeping things simple, but if the flag dispatch method had been used the media would have had a field day with that. I can picture the snippy headlines already! It could be a very good backup method though.

That said, if they use an RFID token, they can be very reliable. Smartcard readers at stations consist of a lot more than just the actual RFID reader component, and in many cases the faults these develop are related to other parts of the system or the software than the actual reader interface. If the tokens used are the toughened "coin" type they are incredibly durable too. And there is nothing to stop each member of staff being issued with an extra one as a spare.

In the event that the reader fails, the "Train Manager" can always just use another location too I suppose!
 

markymark2000

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I agree with the idea of keeping things simple, but if the flag dispatch method had been used the media would have had a field day with that. I can picture the snippy headlines already! It could be a very good backup method though.

That said, if they use an RFID token, they can be very reliable. Smartcard readers at stations consist of a lot more than just the actual RFID reader component, and in many cases the faults these develop are related to other parts of the system or the software than the actual reader interface. If the tokens used are the toughened "coin" type they are incredibly durable too. And there is nothing to stop each member of staff being issued with an extra one as a spare.

In the event that the reader fails, the "Train Manager" can always just use another location too I suppose!
Down sides of RFID is that you could probably get fake versions of it, like NFC tags. Kids then cause chaos by making their own tags
 

hacman

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Down sides of RFID is that you could probably get fake versions of it, like NFC tags. Kids then cause chaos by making their own tags

Very true, but people an also get/make T-keys, or clone just about any other kind of key - or even buy a flag.

At least with RFID you could very easily implement a random ID/pairing process, so anyone attempting to cause chaos would need to know the serial of the RFID token held by the specific member of staff operating that train.
 

JamesT

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Very true, but people an also get/make T-keys, or clone just about any other kind of key - or even buy a flag.

At least with RFID you could very easily implement a random ID/pairing process, so anyone attempting to cause chaos would need to know the serial of the RFID token held by the specific member of staff operating that train.
Contactless door systems usually involve an encrypted token being loaded onto the chip on the card. So merely knowing the serial number isn't going to help produce a fake one. The important part is having a robust system to manage cards/fobs/etc. so you know what has been issued to whom and can revoke permissions if one is lost. Or if the member of staff leaves, rather than trying to retrieve their fob, just cancel it. They're relatively cheap and a cancelled fob has no value unlike a T-key.
 

hacman

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Contactless door systems usually involve an encrypted token being loaded onto the chip on the card. So merely knowing the serial number isn't going to help produce a fake one. The important part is having a robust system to manage cards/fobs/etc. so you know what has been issued to whom and can revoke permissions if one is lost. Or if the member of staff leaves, rather than trying to retrieve their fob, just cancel it. They're relatively cheap and a cancelled fob has no value unlike a T-key.

It all depends on the quality of the system being used to be honest. For every system I've come across that actually uses certificates and shells on the RFID chips, there are many more that merely use the ID of the chip

You hit the nail on the head in terms of the management aspect - and that is going to be key here (no pun intended!).
 

karlbbb

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I don't know whether I'm reading too much into this, but on RealTimeTrains up to 20th January, the testing paths are:
0927 Kirkdale to Kirkby
0943 Kirkby to Liverpool
1005 Liverpool to Kirkby
1028 Kirkby to Liverpool
1050 Liverpool to Kirkby
...and so on, until the 1628 Kirkby to Kirkdale depot.

However, on 23rd January, those ECS paths are still in until the 1050 from Liverpool Central to Kirkby, which is shown as a passenger working, as are all subsequent workings up until the 1628 departure from Kirkby, which is still cancelled in favour of an ECS working to Kirkdale depot.

Could it be that they are aiming for the 1050 Liverpool Central to Kirkby as the first public working, which then stays on that diagram until 1628?

All speculation on my part though.
Hope so, then I can get the 1608 from Moorfields up to Kirkdale then get off and wait for an Ormskirk!


EDIT: Merseyrail have posted a Kirkby timetable update with some removed trains from Monday 23rd Jan, but no specific mention of the 777 starting. I don't think they're expecting to start the 777 on Monday as the BBC had originally reported.

 
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