GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[TurboMan]

Your last chance to see a GWR 769 out on the main line is fast approaching.

Today there is a Oxford <> Reading 8-car set swap (5Z71 Oxford UCS - Reading TCD - although it's probably there by now - and 5Z72 return, booked 1235 off Reading TCD).

Then there are a couple of runs, one on Thurs 26th Jan (4-car) and one on Tues 7th Feb (8-car) both over the North Downs. These are to complete the testing of the ASDO system, which might seem a bit pointless, but it's the same system being fitted to the 16x fleet so any test results are transferable to that fleet.

And that, bar any moves to Long Marston, is it as far as GWR 769s are concerned.

 

[lumitumey12345]

I assume there's been no word on the fate of these units?

 

[Snow1964]

I assume there's been no word on the fate of these units?

Nothing, except apparently being stored at Long Marsden
that is stored, not imminently scrapped

Also there hasn't been anything on how the Wessex shortage of serviceable units is being fixed either as it was due to get the 165s displaced by 769s

There was a mention last week of GWR getting extra units for Bristol-Gloucester frequency increase in May by the Rail Minister, but what type, where from, or how many isn't yet revealed.

 

[JonathanH]

There was a mention last week of GWR getting extra units for Bristol-Gloucester frequency increase in May by the Rail Minister, but what type, where from, or how many isn't yet revealed.

Of course, it is entirely feasible that the Rail Minister has been incorrectly briefed.

 

[LUYMun]

If the GWR 769s are then to be placed into storage, how difficult would it be to convert them back to dual-voltage traction, as to their 319 status?

 

[Falcon1200]

I assume there's been no word on the fate of these units?

One of those at Oxford has been 'decorated' by graffiti artists, so at least it has served some purpose......

 

[DelW]

If the GWR 769s are then to be placed into storage, how difficult would it be to convert them back to dual-voltage traction, as to their 319 status?

No conversion required, they still have AC and DC equipment operational.

The AC is used on the GW main line, and the DC on parts of the North Downs and Brighton lines.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If the GWR 769s are then to be placed into storage, how difficult would it be to convert them back to dual-voltage traction, as to their 319 status?

Not sure why you’d want to convert them back as surplus 319s have been going for recycling as it is. The trains are 35 years old…

 

[DelW]

Not sure why you’d want to convert them back as surplus 319s have been going for recycling as it is. The trains are 35 years old…

Though one would hope that the almost unused diesel engines and generators will be recovered for re-use before they are scrapped, effectively turning them back into 319s.

The amount of money, effort and time that has been wasted in building these units and running them around empty for many months is bad enough, without scrapping almost-new traction equipment as well.

 

[D6130]

The amount of money, effort and time that has been wasted in building these units and running them around empty for many months is bad enough, without scrapping almost-new traction equipment as well.

Just par for the course with the DafT!

 

[JonathanH]

Though one would hope that the almost unused diesel engines and generators will be recovered for re-use before they are scrapped

Who is going to use them? If it costs more to recover the equipment than to leave it isn't situe and no one wants it, then it will just go in the shredder with the rest of the unit and weighed with the rest of the scrap material.

 

[DelW]

Who is going to use them? If it costs more to recover the equipment than to leave it isn't situe and no one wants it, then it will just go in the shredder with the rest of the unit and weighed with the rest of the scrap material.

I'd assumed that the engines and generators at least would be standard off-the-shelf items, so would be of use to other buyers of those items (e.g. for industrial standby generation?). If they were bespoke for the 769s, then possibly only useful as spares for TfW and Northern, depending on how long their fleets last.

 

[Anonymous10]

I'd assumed that the engines and generators at least would be standard off-the-shelf items, so would be of use to other buyers of those items (e.g. for industrial standby generation?). If they were bespoke for the 769s, then possibly only useful as spares for TfW and Northern, depending on how long their fleets last.

Tfw will likely not be using their 769s by the end of the year the 231s are replacing them on the Rhymney line maybe northern could use them though

 

[Greybeard33]

I'd assumed that the engines and generators at least would be standard off-the-shelf items, so would be of use to other buyers of those items (e.g. for industrial standby generation?). If they were bespoke for the 769s, then possibly only useful as spares for TfW and Northern, depending on how long their fleets last.

The MAN diesel engines are designed specifically for rail vehicle applications, with a flat configuration that differs from marine, automotive and stationary versions. They are not used in any other Class of British train and do not comply with the latest Stage V exhaust emissions requirements, so could not be reused in new build vehicles. I believe the generators and other electrical equipment are bespoke for the 769s.

TfW's 769s are already being withdrawn - see this thread:

Transport for Wales 769's

The 769s are included in Modern Railways' monthly 'New Train TIN-watch'. The latest installment (September 2022 issue) provides the figures for 2022-23, period 3 (sorry, I'm not sure of the date range covered in each period). Here's an extract: Fleet Fleet Size Unit Miles TINs MTIN MTIN...

www.railforums.co.uk

I believe Northern's 769s will likely be withdrawn in 2025, when completion of electrification from Wigan to Stalybridge will allow replacement by EMUs.

 

[Geeves]

Has it come out yet what the mystery stock is that will provide the uprated timetable in Devon yet? Perhaps the 769s do have a home after all

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps the 769s do have a home after all

That is very unlikely as the same issues with driver acceptance and training would apply as did at Reading.

Has it come out yet what the mystery stock is that will provide the uprated timetable in Devon yet?

There isn't any uprated timetable in Devon. The 'mystery' is about services in the Bristol area. There is a comment in the GWR DMU thread about rebalancing the number of two car and three car 158s.

 

[Annetts key]

Just par for the course with the DafT!

You only have to look at our military to see equipment that is nowhere near the end of its available operational life, but where it’s been scrapped. And if you go back in time, our original space rocket programme (“Black Arrow’) was scrapped after just one satellite was placed into orbit. I’m sure there are other examples were governments have terminated projects to save spending any more money while ignoring the amounts that have already been spent.

Of course in the case of the 769 trains, it’s mostly seen as the ROSCO’s money, hence it’s up to them what happens to these trains.

 

[zwk500]

You only have to look at our military to see equipment that is nowhere near the end of its available operational life, but where it’s been scrapped.

The difficulty with military equipment is that it might have available life left but if it's lost any battlefield effectiveness there is no point in keeping it. Normally it gets sold on, but if nobody is buying then scrapping is better than storing it. At least trains don't have to respond to advances in the design of other country's trains to blow them up.

And if you go back in time, our original space rocket programme (“Black Arrow’) was scrapped after just one satellite was placed into orbit. I’m sure there are other examples were governments have terminated projects to save spending any more money while ignoring the amounts that have already been spent.

Tbf wasn't Black Arrow an obsolete design from the start?

Of course in the case of the 769 trains, it’s mostly seen as the ROSCO’s money, hence it’s up to them what happens to these trains.

It's slightly galling that one TOC is fine with 769s in tri-mode and another wasn't, but I can understand the logic in the spreadsheet-driven world of Whitehall that this was a loose end that was easier to cut than to work back into the system.

 

[Annetts key]

The difficulty with military equipment is that it might have available life left but if it's lost any battlefield effectiveness there is no point in keeping it. Normally it gets sold on, but if nobody is buying then scrapping is better than storing it. At least trains don't have to respond to advances in the design of other country's trains to blow them up.

However, if other countries are still using the same design…

Tbf wasn't Black Arrow an obsolete design from the start?

As I understand it, the various rocket programmes were all further developments of the earlier systems. The American system was cheaper, hence we dropped our programme.

 

[Benjwri]

There isn't any uprated timetable in Devon. The 'mystery' is about services in the Bristol area. There is a comment in the GWR DMU thread about rebalancing the number of two car and three car 158s.

Rebalancing won’t provide enough unit unless the get rid of all the 3 cars, then it might stretch. There was a comment somewhere about Worcester drivers learning turbos, so presumably Devon is getting more 150s or 158s from somewhere, and its turbos are moving to Worcester.

 

[Bob Price]

Plenty of 150'a and 158's coming out of Wales this year. The 231's are already staring up on the Valleys so it's only a matter of time before 150's will be freed up alongside the 769's which will probably go for scrap. As for the GWR 769's there is unlikely to be anything for them anywhere in the UK. Unless Poterbrook can find some export market for them, they may also heading for Wales. Simms in Newport. Utter waste but that's the DfT for you

 

[Bikeman78]

Pop the champagne corks!

Indeed. The only surprise is that they persisted with this fiasco for as long as they did.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Plenty of 150'a and 158's coming out of Wales this year. The 231's are already staring up on the Valleys so it's only a matter of time before 150's will be freed up alongside the 769's which will probably go for scrap.

Absolutely. There are loads of PRM compliant 150s with fairly fresh interiors coming out of service with TfW this year - replaced by 197 / 231 / 756.

It all really depends on the exact withdrawals from traffic. Assuming 231s initially replace 769s and 756s replace the remainder of the 170s which head to EMR. There is still a wholesale replacement of 175s by 197s on the TfW rump route between South and North Wales.

As for the GWR 769's there is unlikely to be anything for them anywhere in the UK. Unless Poterbrook can find some export market for them, they may also heading for Wales. Simms in Newport. Utter waste but that's the DfT for you

This is the point. Depending on just how "new" the kit is on the 769/9s, they theoretically could replace or augment the northern 769/4s for at least the next three of four years. The /9s have theoretically had a whole swathe of upgrade and you would hope the bodyshell structures are part of it. I wonder if Porterbrook could initiate a fleet swap of their own to replace the /4s with /9s.

 

[Geeves]

Wires going up on half of the 769s remaining core work will likely see the demise of the fleet at Northern. They are difficult to crew (and maintain) and cannot go to most places, so as far as Northern are concerned any more sets (or replacement) is a no go

 

[zwk500]

Wires going up on half of the 769s core work will likely see the demise of the fleet at Northern. They are difficult to crew and cannot go to most places so as far as Northern are concerned any more sets (or replacement) is a no go

Which validates the strategy. Fills a short-term need with older stock that would otherwise be scrapped, and then as that need gets reduced the fleet can get drawn down until it is completely superfluous and withdrawn.

 

[Bikeman78]

Absolutely. There are loads of PRM compliant 150s with fairly fresh interiors coming out of service with TfW this year - replaced by 197 / 231 / 756.

With the possible exception of 150242 and 150279, I'll be surprised if any Welsh 150s or 158s come off lease this year.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Absolutely. There are loads of PRM compliant 150s with fairly fresh interiors coming out of service with TfW this year - replaced by 197 / 231 / 756.

Fresh??? They're in an absolutely dire state already, even so soon after their TfW refresh.

 

[Dan G]

Plenty of 150'a and 158's coming out of Wales this year. The 231's are already staring up on the Valleys so it's only a matter of time before 150's will be freed up alongside the 769's which will probably go for scrap. As for the GWR 769's there is unlikely to be anything for them anywhere in the UK. Unless Poterbrook can find some export market for them, they may also heading for Wales. Simms in Newport. Utter waste but that's the DfT for you

The 769s were a private project by Porterbrook, no?

 

[DelW]

The 769s were a private project by Porterbrook, no?

They were. But it's possible that there were minimum hire periods in the agreements between Porterbrook and the TOCs, so that Porterbrook would have been certain of recovering at least a proportion of the cost of conversion. Such agreements aren't uncommon in other industries, but of course are usually kept confidential. Whether they exist in the railway industry I don't know, and I doubt if anyone who does know would be willing to put anything in the public domain. If there was such an agreement with GWR, we (as taxpayers) might be paying for them for a while longer.

 

[Anonymous10]

Fresh??? They're in an absolutely dire state already, even so soon after their TfW refresh.

Depends on the unit I find some are relatively nice still others not so