Football ‘fans’ Trash Cardiff to London Train.

[SussexSeagull]

I don’t think anyone is saying that stag parties and such aren’t disruptive, however pretty much any railway staff will tell you that football fans rank amongst the worst. It isn’t just the level of impact, but the frequency of it too. Likewise the nature of football is that it often takes up the entire train, which is less likely to be the case with stag parties. Likewise stuff like racing there simply isn’t as much of it, so whilst it may also be a pain when it happens, you’re less likely to experience it, and even less so if you don’t use a service which serves one of the specific locations.

TBF football fans quite often travel from one area to a destination and need to be there at the same time.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don’t think anyone is saying that stag parties and such aren’t disruptive, however pretty much any railway staff will tell you that football fans rank amongst the worst. It isn’t just the level of impact, but the frequency of it too. Likewise the nature of football is that it often takes up the entire train, which is less likely to be the case with stag parties. Likewise stuff like racing there simply isn’t as much of it, so whilst it may also be a pain when it happens, you’re less likely to experience it, and even less so if you don’t use a service which serves one of the specific locations.

Stag parties don't usually involve thousands, even tens of thousands of people. I make the point again, football represents by far the most popular & regular organised events. Over 30 million people a year go to professional games alone, and they do so in very limited time frames. So what railway staff are seeing is a magnification of many of societies ills. But it is not unique to football as some claim.

There are already plenty of examples of bad behaviour by crowds not associated with football on this thread, but over the years how often have posters here complained about race goers, stag or hen parties, the last train on a Saturday etc etc? I am simply sick and tired of the lazy rhetoric that football fans are somehow terrible people who cause more trouble than the rest of society. And it usually comes from people who know sod all about the game, but are somehow experts on it's fans

 

[43066]

I'll just store it for future use should you complain about the behaviour of stag parties, teenagers, or people out on p*** on one of your shifts. When you've watched first hand your part of the world literally be smashed apart, nothing, and I mean nothing you can tell me will change my mind that the problems are way more widespread than you want to believe.

I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean? Bradford riots have nothing to do with what the thread is about? There were riots in London too for your information. What on earth does that have to with badly behaved football fans on trains?

There are already plenty of examples of bad behaviour by crowds not associated with football on this thread, but over the years how often have posters here complained about race goers, stag or hen parties, the last train on a Saturday etc etc? I am simply sick and tired of the lazy rhetoric that football fans are somehow terrible people who cause more trouble than the rest of society. And it usually comes from people who know sod all about the game, but are somehow experts on it's fans

Pointing out other examples of bad behaviour doesn’t detract from the fact that, on the whole football, crowds tend to behave worse and are more numerous than others. I don’t need to know about football to know that. Neither do any of my colleagues, many of whom are football fans, but all say the same thing.

 

[Bantamzen]

I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean? Bradford riots have nothing to do with what the thread is about? There were riots in London too for your information. What on earth does that have to with badly behaved football fans on trains?



Pointing out other examples of bad behaviour doesn’t detract from the fact that, on the whole football, crowds tend to behave worse and are more numerous than others. I don’t need to know about football to know that. Neither do any of my colleagues, many of whom are football fans, but all say the same thing.

The connection is simple. There are people prone to disruption and violence in our society, and they can cause problems anywhere and at any time, not just at football. That should be obvious really.

 

[AlterEgo]

The connection is simple. There are people prone to disruption and violence in our society, and they can cause problems anywhere and at any time, not just at football. That should be obvious really.

Football is a huge accelerant for those people predisposed to that sort of behaviour though. Yes, those people are terrible, but football culture is also problematic which many people don’t want to tackle. You can see this even in the thread title, with ‘fans’ in inverted commas. No, they’re fans. No point resorting to the No True Scotsman defence.

 

[O L Leigh]

But it is not unique to football as some claim.

I’m not sure that anyone has claimed that it’s unique to football. Perhaps I’ve missed something somewhere. I would appreciate if maybe you could quote where this has been said.

There are already plenty of examples of bad behaviour by crowds not associated with football on this thread, but over the years how often have posters here complained about race goers, stag or hen parties, the last train on a Saturday etc etc? I am simply sick and tired of the lazy rhetoric that football fans are somehow terrible people who cause more trouble than the rest of society. And it usually comes from people who know sod all about the game, but are somehow experts on it's fans

Again, I’m not convinced that anyone has said precisely that.

I make the point again, football represents by far the most popular & regular organised events. Over 30 million people a year go to professional games alone, and they do so in very limited time frames.

This is precisely the issue. It’s the sheer numbers in terms of people and matches that creates issues.

I don’t think that it can be denied that, as with everything, it’s just a few rotten apples that spoils the barrel. However, it equally cannot be denied that football crowds create a disproportionate amount of aggro. These two positions are not mutually exclusive. There are folk who behave differently when travelling in large groups for football compared to when they travel for other reasons and, yes, alcohol plays it’s part in that. That’s not intended to denigrate the large numbers of fans who do travel peacefully and respect the other passengers and staff. But I do think you’re being a touch over-sensitive about this.

 

[Sprinter107]

Nobody should be singing, chanting, shouting, banging tables etc etc on public trains, for any reason, under any circumstances, ever. Football, stags, hens, drunks, random groups of bellowing oafs? Don't know, couldn't care any less if I tried, just give it a rest. They can bellow vacuous inanities at each other til their ears bleed in their own private space, but this is a part of the public realm in which everyone is effectively temporarily imprisoned.

Why should anyone else be forced to put up with their active choice to inflict an entirely elective and totally unnecessary projection of themselves onto those around them when they have zero interest and even less wish to endure it at painful volume for however long? It's a form of psychological assault.

The exact same thing applies, to a less extreme extent, to the use of speakerphone for... anything at all other than a 999 call when someone is having a heart attack or in labour and the caller needs to follow instructions with their hands free. In an ideal parallel universe it would be the social norm to seize the thing, thoroughly rearrange it with a handy sledgehammer and then return the shattered remnants to the transgressor.

This sort of thing is one of many reasons why getting people who enjoy at least a residual veneer of civilisation to use public transport is such a hard sell.

Absolutely agree with this wholeheartedly. And thats the reason I dont go out and about as much as I used to.

 

[43066]

I’m not sure that anyone has claimed that it’s unique to football. Perhaps I’ve missed something somewhere. I would appreciate if maybe you could quote where this has been said.



Again, I’m not convinced that anyone has said precisely that.



This is precisely the issue. It’s the sheer numbers in terms of people and matches that creates issues.

I don’t think that it can be denied that, as with everything, it’s just a few rotten apples that spoils the barrel. However, it equally cannot be denied that football crowds create a disproportionate amount of aggro. These two positions are not mutually exclusive. There are folk who behave differently when travelling in large groups for football compared to when they travel for other reasons and, yes, alcohol plays it’s part in that. That’s not intended to denigrate the large numbers of fans who do travel peacefully and respect the other passengers and staff. But I do think you’re being a touch over-sensitive about this.

Absolutely. It’s odd that some people seem to take this subject so personally.

 

[Bantamzen]

Football is a huge accelerant for those people predisposed to that sort of behaviour though. Yes, those people are terrible, but football culture is also problematic which many people don’t want to tackle. You can see this even in the thread title, with ‘fans’ in inverted commas. No, they’re fans. No point resorting to the No True Scotsman defence.

So what is so problematic about football culture that isn't mirrored elsewhere in society?

I’m not sure that anyone has claimed that it’s unique to football. Perhaps I’ve missed something somewhere. I would appreciate if maybe you could quote where this has been said.

People have claimed that football has unique issues.

Again, I’m not convinced that anyone has said precisely that.

And people on this thread have cited examples of ad behaviour beyond football.

This is precisely the issue. It’s the sheer numbers in terms of people and matches that creates issues.

But that does not mean that football is the cause, just that it is more likely that anti-social people could be amongst them. My point here is that if they weren't at a game, they would be still likely to cause problem because they are the problem.

I don’t think that it can be denied that, as with everything, it’s just a few rotten apples that spoils the barrel. However, it equally cannot be denied that football crowds create a disproportionate amount of aggro. These two positions are not mutually exclusive. There are folk who behave differently when travelling in large groups for football compared to when they travel for other reasons and, yes, alcohol plays it’s part in that. That’s not intended to denigrate the large numbers of fans who do travel peacefully and respect the other passengers and staff. But I do think you’re being a touch over-sensitive about this.

And those folk are the ones I am talking about. They would be just as likely the create problems travelling in groups to a stag do, or on an ale trail. Again my point is that football is not the cause, it is a wider social problem. I honestly don't understand why folk have a problem accepting that. Perhaps it is just easier to blame other people?

 

[43066]

People have claimed that football has unique issues.

People have simply said that the same issues witnessed elsewhere (by staff with many years of experience) are consistently more prevalent with football crowds. You continually refuse to accept this.

 

[Runningaround]

We should have retained 142s for some of our wonderful customers. Minus seats.

What extra services for the railway to mess up or cancel at least it'll put more on to the coaches?

There's another reason why fans cram on to the first service they see heading home and that's because it could be the last one home, some used to spread the day out with a visit to the pub or have something to eat and return home when the advances were cheapest.
Now everyone just heads to the station and hope for the best.

 

[Runningaround]

And those folk are the ones I am talking about. They would be just as likely the create problems travelling in groups to a stag do, or on an ale trail. Again my point is that football is not the cause, it is a wider social problem. I honestly don't understand why folk have a problem accepting that. Perhaps it is just easier to blame other people?

The Transpennine Ale Trail groups are as bad or worse than any groups heading to the football I've seen between Manchester and Leeds. Peeing there trousers, holding up the train at each station waiting for the stragglers and telling on board railway staff how to do their job.
The types who go on these are not to far off who you'd think may very well be regular visitors to this very forum. Real Ale/Railway Enthusiast types.

 

[zwk500]

I don't think anybody is going to be able to prove or convince others that Football has a higher than normal incidence of violence/disorder for the scale of the crowds involved (or not, as the case may be). It may be better to just let that part of the discussion rest.
Perhaps it might be better for the discussion to shift over to ways to address drunk & disorderly behaviour that causes distress or harm to people minding their own business. Heavier policing is one way forward but realistically they can't be enough officers on every train on a friday and saturday night, nor do we necessarily want the drunks getting onto the train in the first place. Are there then ways to change the cultural aspects around getting as smashed as you possibly can in order for it to count as a good night out? It's not uniquely british, but drinking on the continent does seem to be a generally far more measured affair, in town centres at least. Are there lessons to learn there?

 

[Haywain]

Are there lessons to learn there?

How about that it isn't just all about alcohol these days?

 

[O L Leigh]

Again my point is that football is not the cause, it is a wider social problem. I honestly don't understand why folk have a problem accepting that.

We’re talking at cross-purposes. Football may not be the cause, but groups of travelling fans can and do cause a disproportionate amount of problems.

 

[Bantamzen]

People have simply said that the same issues witnessed elsewhere (by staff with many years of experience) are consistently more prevalent with football crowds. You continually refuse to accept this.

So what you are describing is a matter of scale. Football fans travel in large numbers at the same time and the same direction for obvious reasons, and there are far more games than with any other spectator sport. So the likelihood of trouble makers being out and about at football increases, but this is not because of some unique facet of football just like I say, scale.

Given the amount of discussion from rail staff over anti-social behaviour in all sorts of scenarios, I think it is fair to say if for example stag parties all took place and the exact same time, location and with similar numbers in attendance as football then similar patterns would emerge. Therefore the problem is a social one, and all the vitriol towards football fans is misplaced.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it is fair to say if for example stag parties all took place and the exact same time, location and with similar numbers in attendance as football then similar patterns would emerge. Therefore the problem is a social one, and all the vitriol towards football fans is misplaced.

They do. It's called York

 

[zwk500]

How about that it isn't just all about alcohol these days?

Certainly there's harder substances involved. But is that a cause or an effect of the underlying problem? I think there a wider, more selfish, cultural element here. Possibly imported from America.

 

[Runningaround]

I don't think anybody is going to be able to prove or convince others that Football has a higher than normal incidence of violence/disorder for the scale of the crowds involved (or not, as the case may be). It may be better to just let that part of the discussion rest.
Perhaps it might be better for the discussion to shift over to ways to address drunk & disorderly behaviour that causes distress or harm to people minding their own business. Heavier policing is one way forward but realistically they can't be enough officers on every train on a friday and saturday night, nor do we necessarily want the drunks getting onto the train in the first place. Are there then ways to change the cultural aspects around getting as smashed as you possibly can in order for it to count as a good night out? It's not uniquely british, but drinking on the continent does seem to be a generally far more measured affair, in town centres at least. Are there lessons to learn there?

30,000,000 in attendance each season and to quote an earlier post 2,500 arrests. And many games with less than 20,000 in attendance haven't any Police in attendance other than for traffic. Now how many arrests will a town centre see at Xmas time with a fraction of those figures out for their works do?
And as ale and football go together how many more pubs would close if it wasn't for the local football matches or World Cups on TV. Real Ale enthusiasts may wish for a quiet pub with hardly anyone in but their expenditure won't even cover it's electricity bill.

 

[Haywain]

But is that a cause or an effect of the underlying problem?

I think it's fair to suggest that antisocial behaviour is a result of the use of certain substances rather than the reverse.

 

[Facing Back]

Therefore the problem is a social one, and all the vitriol towards football fans is misplaced.

There is without doubt a social problem. I’m not sure I would describe groups of hooligans out looking for trouble as football fans though, even if they are wearing colours.

 

[AlterEgo]

So what you are describing is a matter of scale.

The scale of football and the crowd mentality means a lot of bad behaviour gets overlooked or even encouraged. The problem is the culture, not that individual football fans are better or worse than anyone else.

Therefore the problem is a social one, and all the vitriol towards football fans is misplaced.

That’s hard to argue when the football authorities are making such strides to eradicate homophobia and sexism. But don’t worry, it’s much easier to say “societal problem” rather than admit the culture of football is problematic and requires *all fans* whether they engage in the behaviour or not to try and change the culture. I am sure this applies to other sports and pursuits as well.

 

[Haywain]

But don’t worry, it’s much easier to say “societal problem” rather than admit the culture of football is problematic and requires *all fans* whether they engage in the behaviour or not to try and change the culture. I am sure this applies to other sports and pursuits as well.

So, are you saying it's football's fault or not?

 

[zwk500]

30,000,000 in attendance each season and to quote an earlier post 2,500 arrests. And many games with less than 20,000 in attendance haven't any Police in attendance other than for traffic. Now how many arrests will a town centre see at Xmas time with a fraction of those figures out for their works do?

I wasn't getting involved in the arrests debate because the statistics will be skewed by how police deal with incidents in each situation.

And as ale and football go together how many more pubs would close if it wasn't for the local football matches or World Cups on TV. Real Ale enthusiasts may wish for a quiet pub with hardly anyone in but their expenditure won't even cover it's electricity bill.

I never suggested that pubs be shut, or that people should only go to pubs if they intend to have a quiet evening sipping ale. I was just pointing out that there might be a slightly better middle ground which involved having drinks without losing control. I personally very much make use of pubs that show football and rugby games to meet up with friends, and will have 2 or 3 drinks during the match quite happily.
People having 1 or 2 drinks over a few hours won't cover the electricity bill, but then again you'd have to have an awful lot of pints or shots to cover for the damage somebody absolutely smashed off their face on cocaine can do.

 

[tony6499]

Working out of Brighton the worst day was Gay Pride day, drink, drugs, sex and violence in full sight on the trains. Made the football traffic look like a vicars tea party. No football trains and travel can compare to the 70's and 80's , anyone who travelled in those days were in fear of their lives. Nowadays it is pretty tame compared to that

 

[greyman42]

They do. It's called York

And it all goes off trouble free, by and large, in the city itself.

 

[D6130]

And it all goes off trouble free, by and large, in the city itself.

Really? Have you experienced Micklegate on a Friday or Saturday night....especially when the races are on?

 

[zwk500]

Really? Have you experienced Micklegate on a Friday or Saturday night....especially when the races are on?

The races are different to the Hen Parties.

 

[185143]

I was at Ipswich earlier just after Ipswich-Burnley kicked out. Very, very busy and a bit of singing, but nothing unacceptable at all. No more swearing than you might expect to hear amongst a large group of people.

BTP were requested for crowd control to platform 1 as the Cambridge train left a lot of people behind, though they never arrived. It was civil enough for me to early hear the guard apologising to the crowd as he left, whilst I was stood on the Norwich bound platform!

I've been on several trains, and indeed the Metrolink a couple of times that have become full on football fans, with no trouble whatsoever. I was on Merseyrail on Derby day a few years ago after the match. A few Everton fans in my carriage were trying to wind up the Liverpool supporters, but they very much to their credit didn't want to know and weren't rising to any of it. Did an excellent job of making the Everton fans seem rather childish.

That said, I've had some awful journeys with football fans. One of the worst was on a VTEC 91 set from King's Cross to Leeds. A group of Barnsley fans wouldn't stop singing, shouting, swearing, drinking and banging on the tables and windows all the way back to Doncaster.

 

[yorksrob]

And it all goes off trouble free, by and large, in the city itself.

Indeed to be fair