Opinions on Brexit

[102 fan]

If you hold a British passport you should be entitled to take part in a democratic vote on Britain's future irrespective of where you live.

I voted remain, stand by it vehemently, and tbh I'm still angry that I've had my right to live and work in dozens of other countries taken away by a largely elderly and/or xenophobic section of the country backed by a campaign of outright lies and deception.

It was language like that that pushed some to vote leave, as well as calling Brexiters 'knuckle dragging neanderthals' as I heard many times. It didn't really endear remain, and I'm sure some voted leave because of the name calling.

Just curious, but as the vote was confidential, how do you know the age and foreign views of the leave vote?

 

[Snow1964]

If you hold a British passport you should be entitled to take part in a democratic vote on Britain's future irrespective of where you live.

I voted remain, stand by it vehemently, and tbh I'm still angry that I've had my right to live and work in dozens of other countries taken away by a largely elderly and/or xenophobic section of the country backed by a campaign of outright lies and deception.

Totally agree, but all the British citizens with British passports in Europe were excluded (wrongly in my opinion) from the Brexit vote.

Almost certainly they would have voted remain as Brexit directly makes their life difficult.

As for Hard Brexit, unless there is a border in Ireland that is a bodged concept too. Ended up with a version which isn't being implemented and proper checks don't take place, so might as well have stayed in single market

 

[PsychoMouse]

It was language like that that pushed some to vote leave, as well as calling Brexiters 'knuckle dragging neanderthals' as I heard many times. It didn't really endear remain, and I'm sure some voted leave because of the name calling.

Just curious, but as the vote was confidential, how do you know the age and foreign views of the leave vote?

I never used language like this before the result, despite this current total ****-show being obvious it was going to happen but being dismissed as 'project fear', but the post-mortem reveals it's true. YouGov survey data backs it up.

How Britain voted at the EU referendum | YouGov

Over-65s were more than twice as likely as under-25s to have voted to Leave the European Union

yougov.co.uk

I'm particularly resentful about having my rights to freedom of movement taken away, by people who won't ever have to deal with the consequences, mainly for reasons which have since turned out to be built upon racism and abject lies, and the perpetrators of which should be facing legal ramifications for lying to the public, and I'm willing to point this out whenever the topic comes up.

Weirdly enough it turns out Project Fear was entirely correct. We're a laughing stock now and it's entirely justified, I'm even embarrassed to say that I come from here sometimes.

Project Fear = Project Here.

 

[Doppelganger]

And yet the EU was nothing to do with the free movement of goods an people...

Erm, within the EU they do and indeed when the UK was a member, they took advantage of the both the free movement of people and goods. The UK economy is now hamstrung by not being able to recruit and small business in particular are finding it more difficult to export, so I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say...

 

[Bantamzen]

Of course, for some of us, first past the post is not true democracy. And majority governments are certainly not true democracy - opposition parties have little or no scope to shape policy. Government bills just get passed, and passed, and passed again with a majority government, and the opposition is a lame duck with no power.

By 2024, the Tories will have been in power 32 years out of 45. 71% of the time. And have the Tories ever come even remotely close to 71% of the vote? They've never achieved 45%, let alone 71%, in that period. Any system which has a single party in power more than 70% of the time is seriously broken, unless that party really does command the support of an overwhelming majority of the population.

This probably says as much about the opposition than it does about the system. It was for the same reason that Remain ultimately failed, its arguments were just not strong enough to win, even if staying was possibly the better solution.

 

[PsychoMouse]

This probably says as much about the opposition than it does about the system. It was for the same reason that Remain ultimately failed, its arguments were just not strong enough to win, even if staying was possibly the better solution.

By 'not strong enough to win' you mean 'not littered with lies plastered on the sides of busses'?

 

[RT4038]

Should you be stripped of your citizenship also? If not, why shouldn't you still be able to vote for things when you could return at any time?

No, but if you go and live in another country for a long period of time (and 15 years is more than ample), then you should take out citizenship of that country and partake in that country's democratic system.

How come EU citizens (or citizens of any other country for that matter) living in the UK were denied a vote in the Brexit referendum?

Because they were not British Citizens.

Or are people living in countries apart from the one they were born in not allowed a vote in either their birth or residence country? Would you completely cut them off democratically?

Nobody has a 'right' to democracy! If you go and live in another country and wish to partake in the democracy of that country then you apply for naturalisation and obtain citizenship. 15 years to do that. Just because you've moved to another country doesn't give you full citizenship rights! They have to be applied for. These people have moved to another country on their own free will and the rules of their democratic representation (or otherwise) was known at that time. If you don't like it, don't move countries.

 

[PsychoMouse]

Nobody has a 'right' to democracy!

If you live in a democratic country you do.

 

[GusB]

How come EU citizens (or citizens of any other country for that matter) living in the UK were denied a vote in the Brexit referendum?

My view is that those people who had to chosen to make the UK their home should have been allowed a vote.

Or are people living in countries apart from the one they were born in not allowed a vote in either their birth or residence country? Would you completely cut them off democratically?

I'm not really sure what your point is here. I'm absolutely not suggesting that anyone should be "cut off democratically". You should be able to make decisions at the ballot box that relate to where you live now, not where you used to live.

 

[DustyBin]

I narrowly voted Remain, after being on the fence for a long time. I thought there were good and bad arguments on both sides (and unfortunately the campaign was, inevitably, largely composed of the bad arguments, on both sides).

In the end, I think what tipped the balance for me to vote Remain was the idea that being closer to our European neighbours may help moderate extremes proposed from our government (eg. on workers rights). I (rather mistakenly!) thought that European governments tended to be fairly sensible on the whole. The response to covid - where most European countries were significantly more draconian and abusive to their citizens than even we were in the UK - showed just how wrong I was about that. (In addition, the enthusiastic remainers/rejoiners/#FBPE crowd seemed to be the most vocal about supporting lockdowns, masks, compulsory vaccinations and vaccine passports, whereas most opposition to these things seemed to come from those on the leave side. I'm not entirely sure why that was the case, and clearly there were exceptions, but on the whole it was a fairly clear trend and did make me re-examine my opinions somewhat).

As such, I'm very much on the Leave side now. Clearly the government have done a terrible job of grasping the possibilities of having left - a trivial example being why on earth they haven't removed VAT on domestic fuel bills - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stick with it or that it wasn't the right thing to do.

I do find it somewhat amusing to see many of those on the Remain side now blaming Brexit for absolutely everything that is currently wrong in our country, even things that clearly have nothing whatever to do with it. It is a mirror of the previous situation where many on the Leave side blamed being in the EU for absolutely everything that was going wrong, however silly that was. I find both to be fairly extreme and also rather silly positions.

This all resonates, although I came out on the leave side at the time.

I realise it’s an emotive subject, but I don’t understand those people who think the UK is now an isolated, insignificant little island off the coast of Europe (etc. etc.). The war in Ukraine has proven that the UK is a reliable partner and ally that will step up when really needed. Interestingly, there’s a lot of rhetoric around a power shift in Europe, and those countries likely to take a lead role going forward are the same ones who most value the UK’s contribution to European security. I don’t want to see us rejoin the EU by any means, but I do think we could see the relationship change in a way that benefits us all.

 

[RT4038]

If you live in a democratic country you do.

That depends on the rules of that country.

In the case of the UK, if you are a UK citizen and living in the UK then you do. (and apparently if you are living out of the country for less than 15 years).

Some democratic countries give no or very limited democratic rights to persons residing outside of the country, irrespective of time.

 

[DC1989]

It's interesting that almost 20% of the votes believe in Brexit but it's just been mishandled. It's a bit like the tankies who past communism wasn't the real one

There's been studies in the past how people tend not to admit when they've been scammed, mostly due to what they feel is a personal sense of shame.

 

[jon0844]

I narrowly voted Remain, after being on the fence for a long time. I thought there were good and bad arguments on both sides (and unfortunately the campaign was, inevitably, largely composed of the bad arguments, on both sides).

In the end, I think what tipped the balance for me to vote Remain was the idea that being closer to our European neighbours may help moderate extremes proposed from our government (eg. on workers rights). I (rather mistakenly!) thought that European governments tended to be fairly sensible on the whole. The response to covid - where most European countries were significantly more draconian and abusive to their citizens than even we were in the UK - showed just how wrong I was about that. (In addition, the enthusiastic remainers/rejoiners/#FBPE crowd seemed to be the most vocal about supporting lockdowns, masks, compulsory vaccinations and vaccine passports, whereas most opposition to these things seemed to come from those on the leave side. I'm not entirely sure why that was the case, and clearly there were exceptions, but on the whole it was a fairly clear trend and did make me re-examine my opinions somewhat).

As such, I'm very much on the Leave side now.

It's interesting that you speak of individual European countries (which are of course sovereign nations) doing things you didn't like during Covid, and makes me wonder why this is somehow why you now dislike the EU and you think we're better off out?

Doesn't your very statement show that countries mostly did their own thing (like use powers to restrict freedom of movement or close borders) and it has nothing to do with Brexit.

You've made your thoughts known on Covid for some time, but where's the link with Brexit and why did this of all things change your mind? It's not like we didn't totally screw up our handling of it here.

 

[102 fan]

I never used language like this before the result, despite this current total ****-show being obvious it was going to happen but being dismissed as 'project fear', but the post-mortem reveals it's true. YouGov survey data backs it up.

How Britain voted at the EU referendum | YouGov

Over-65s were more than twice as likely as under-25s to have voted to Leave the European Union

yougov.co.uk

I'm particularly resentful about having my rights to freedom of movement taken away, by people who won't ever have to deal with the consequences, mainly for reasons which have since turned out to be built upon racism and abject lies, and the perpetrators of which should be facing legal ramifications for lying to the public, and I'm willing to point this out whenever the topic comes up.

Weirdly enough it turns out Project Fear was entirely correct. We're a laughing stock now and it's entirely justified, I'm even embarrassed to say that I come from here sometimes.

Project Fear = Project Here.

You didn't use language like that, but plenty did. And any organisation saying the make up of the vote is using supposition and guesswork, as I said before, the vote is confidential.

As you gov got the result wrong with their polling, can they be relied upon to be correct with other guesswork?

 

[nw1]

If you choose to make your life in another country for a lengthy period of time and don't return to your homeland to live during that period, surely you don't really have any right to have a say in what happens in the place that you no longer choose to live.

But of course the EU nationals who had spent 15+ years in the UK were also denied the vote - even though Brexit affects them directly.

EDIT: I see you agree that this was wrong!

 

[Annetts key]

I suspect ETIAS will catch some out as it'll ask if someone has a criminal record and will run checks through Europol. But it's just another form, on top of the other forms which weren't needed before...

But I'm told Brexit was about securing borders, so all good.

Hmm, do I remember something along the lines of less bureaucratically or am I mistaken?

I’ll say it again (at least I think I’ve said it repeatedly before), this island called Great Britain has NEVER EVER had secure borders. Not many years a ago there was a Channel 4 documentary where ten U.K. citizens tried to enter the U.K. without their passports (the producer had possession of the passport) and without revealing themselves to any official. Nine got in without any trouble. One attempt was abandoned due to the sea conditions.

Whatever the brexiters think the so called advantages are supposed to be, the vast majority of the population that travel abroad, the vast majority of visitors from the E.U., plus many, many traders that import or export, now have to endure more bureaucratically than before.

If time really is money, that in itself means we are poorer as a country and a society.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Brexit, that's still a thing?

But seriously, although I, like an interesting number of people, narrowly voted remain, I think the vote was sealed decades ago. Our integration into Europe happened during a period of time, between about the early 1980s to mid 2000s, of which there seemed to be a great period of economic and social change which culminated in a general feeling that people had a lack of control over their own lives. Neoliberal economics was undisputed, there were no parties (apart from UKIP) that offered anything different for the best part of 20 years. Immigration was rising quickly throughout the 2000s the governing party seemed largely uninterested in peoples concerns on it. The EU integrated rapidly over the 15 to 20 years with no referenda to slow the integration process or even just have a discussion on it. Change was rapid, unstoppable and unquestionable. It's no wonder the vote came out the way it did. I was still hearing complaints about "bendy bananas" as late as 2019.

That said, I don't think Britain should rejoin. What's the point? I don't think there has been a complete change of heart about Europe, about accepting EU laws etc. The same jingoistic sentiment would appear again once we get back in. Even if it doesn't, Britain will re-enter a geopolitically divided Europe, and would just become a figurehead for the pro-NATO, pro US faction of Eastern European countries, which isn't going to to much to solidify relations with the Franco-German axis.

I'm in favour of EFTA/EEA membership, but we should leave it there for the time being.

 

[nw1]

Contrast the turnout by the electorate for a General Election with the turnout for the election for Euro MPs, turnout for the European elections for MEPs, down to as low as 25%, turnout for election of MPs for Westminster around 70%. The low electoiral turnout is echoed around many of other EU member states. The EU Commission and EU Parliament has wide-reaching powers yet has a major issue with support and justification of the wielding of those powers judging by the weakness of voter turnout by the electorate

Not relevant to my point, which was that a particular party has completely dominated politics since 1979 despite never getting 45% of the vote - hence the UK system is scarcely a shining example of democracy.

Well technically it's an ETIAS visa waiver, not a visa, that you'll have to pay for later this year. The €7 fee is basically insignificant if you're already paying to travel to Europe.

The fee is not the problem, though to be honest I would prefer a less discriminatory approach and add it to the cost of a flight (in the same way that airport taxes are already added), to be applied to all people, not just non-EU citizens.

The problem is that systems like ETIAS, ESTA, and the UK equivalent, are unwelcoming and seem to be based on the premise that foreigners are fundamentally suspicious. It doesn't make you feel welcome. Many of us have long bemoaned the US's unwelcoming attitude to visitors, and it's sadly being replicated all around the western world. Thanks, Mr Bush.

You're just mixing statistics there that have no relevance to each other. I'd suggest the more important point of the 32 years out of 45 is that it shows what an utterly ineffective opposition Labour has been for most of the last half century. Much of the time it has been unelectable and their most successful leader (Blair) in terms of winning elections is derided by a significant part of the party (which in itself tells a story).

Unelectable? I don't think so. Perhaps Corbyn (and Foot, though before my time) was a bit strident for many people's tastes, but most Labour leaders have really, to me, been quite middle-of-the road. Kinnock, Blair, Brown, Ed Miliband, and Starmer - all better to me, and many others, than any Tory leader, though I didn't mind Major too much.

Which party caused massive unemployment and social unrest in the early 80s? Closed down the mines? Brought in Section 28? Brought in the poll tax? Caused Black Wednesday? Implemented a botched privatisation of the railways? Implemented austerity post credit crunch? Implemented Brexit? Held parties while enforcing lockdown on the rest of us? And, last September, tried to bring in tax cuts for the rich?

To me, the party responsible for all the above are the unelectable ones. I will never forgive them for what they have done. And besides Foot and Corbyn, Labour leaders have to my mind been really quite middle-of-the-road and inoffensive: indeed perhaps too much so.

But my main point, really, is that the UK electoral system has a major anti-democratic streak. You don't let a party - any party - with less than 45% of the vote hold absolute power.

 

[Howardh]

For all those who still want Brexit, you have a choice, either things get so difficult we end up having to return to the EEA via the single market/customs union, and ultimately back into the EU - or you look at all the faults of Brexit (barriers/trade/movement/Visas etc) and fix them so you keep some kind of Brexit (ie not in the EU, not paying in to the EU). Hobson's choice I know, but at this rate the support for Brexit will dwindle to less than a third of the population - just look how Tory support with 80-odd seat advantage has collapsed - and we haven't even started with ETIAS/profiling of holidaymakers.

So dear Brexit-voting friends, it really is in your interest if you want to stay out of the EU to look at the issues, don't bury your heads, don't believe all our new trade deals are as good as the old ones, and let us import/export/travel seamlessly......as was promised. Your call.

 

[nw1]

For all those who still want Brexit, you have a choice, either things get so difficult we end up having to return to the EEA via the single market/customs union, and ultimately back into the EU - or you look at all the faults of Brexit (barriers/trade/movement/Visas etc) and fix them so you keep some kind of Brexit (ie not in the EU, not paying in to the EU). Hobson's choice I know, but at this rate the support for Brexit will dwindle to less than a third of the population - just look how Tory support with 80-odd seat advantage has collapsed - and we haven't even started with ETIAS/profiling of holidaymakers.

So dear Brexit-voting friends, it really is in your interest if you want to stay out of the EU to look at the issues, don't bury your heads, don't believe all our new trade deals are as good as the old ones, and let us import/export/travel seamlessly......as was promised. Your call.

Good post.

Such a compromise is what a lot of us remainers would be quite happy with. We don't necessarily need a full rejoin, just a return even to the pre-EU normal of 1973-92. Plus some degree of freedom of movement, even if it comes with restrictions such as inability to claim benefits. The setup that applied in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.

 

[RT4038]

Unelectable? I don't think so. Perhaps Corbyn (and Foot, though before my time) was a bit strident for many people's tastes, but most Labour leaders have really, to me, been quite middle-of-the road. Kinnock, Blair, Brown, Ed Miliband, and Starmer - all better to me, and many others, than any Tory leader, though I didn't mind Major too much.

Well, were they elected? Only Blair, after stealing the Conservatives' clothes, which rather tells something!

Which party caused massive unemployment and social unrest in the early 80s? Closed down the mines? Brought in Section 28? Brought in the poll tax? Caused Black Wednesday? Implemented a botched privatisation of the railways? Implemented austerity post credit crunch? Implemented Brexit? Held parties while enforcing lockdown on the rest of us? And, last September, tried to bring in tax cuts for the rich?

To me, the party responsible for all the above are the unelectable ones. I will never forgive them for what they have done. And besides Foot and Corbyn, Labour leaders have to my mind been really quite middle-of-the-road and inoffensive: indeed perhaps too much so.

And there are many, very many, who believe that: the country needed sorting out in the 80s and the coal mines closing down, the prosperity of the country post 1980s was a good thing, have no view with Section 28, no issue with the dismantling of B.R., Austerity and Lockdowns were necessary (or the only viable option) and that any political party (or the individual politicians) is not going to get everything right. And they certainly don't trust Labour with either their or the country's finances.

 

[nw1]

Well, were they elected? Only Blair, after stealing the Conservatives' clothes, which rather tells something!


And there are many, very many, who believe that: the country needed sorting out in the 80s and the coal mines closing down, the prosperity of the country post 1980s was a good thing, have no view with Section 28, no issue with the dismantling of B.R., Austerity and Lockdowns were necessary (or the only viable option) and that any political party (or the individual politicians) is not going to get everything right. And they certainly don't trust Labour with either their or the country's finances.

I'm not denying that, merely arguing against Labour being supposedly "unelectable". But my main point, really, is that our political system has (with the exception of 13 years from 1997) given no voice for those of us who did object to all the things I listed above.

And do we trust the Tories with our finances? (Cough) Liz... Kwasi...

 

[PsychoMouse]

And they certainly don't trust Labour with either their or the country's finances.

Because the Conservatives have demonstrated how entirely competent they are with the economy haven't they?

Thankfully they're destined to 15 years in the wilderness after the next GE.

 

[GS250]

The main problem with Brexit was that the majority of the establishment didn't really want it. How can something be implemented when the majority of those undertaking it are not really motivated to do so?

, just a return even to the pre-EU normal of 1973-92.

This is a sensible statement. I think the majority of brexiteers were happy with our relationship with the EEC/EU back then. I certainly was.

However the only problem is since then numerous basket case countries have joined the club.

 

[RT4038]

Because the Conservatives have demonstrated how entirely competent they are with the economy haven't they?

Thankfully they're destined to 15 years in the wilderness after the next GE.

You may well be right. Tory sleaze brings them down, as much as Labour finances brings them down. I suspect, across the world, that it is no good thing to have one party in power for too long - they start believing in their own invincibility and propaganda.....

 

[MikeWM]

It's interesting that you speak of individual European countries (which are of course sovereign nations) doing things you didn't like during Covid, and makes me wonder why this is somehow why you now dislike the EU and you think we're better off out?

Doesn't your very statement show that countries mostly did their own thing (like use powers to restrict freedom of movement or close borders) and it has nothing to do with Brexit.

Because these individual countries combine to dictate the direction and the path of the EU, and if they are mostly making very bad (and similar) decisions individually, they are likely to be making bad decisions collectively too. As I said earlier, I previously thought these countries were largely sensible and therefore *in collection* also would come up with fairly sensible policies. Given the response to covid in most of these countries, now I think I was actually very wrong about that.

 

[jon0844]

Because these individual countries combine to dictate the direction and the path of the EU, and if they are mostly making very bad (and similar) decisions individually, they are likely to be making bad decisions collectively too. As I said earlier, I previously thought these countries were largely sensible and therefore *in collection* also would come up with fairly sensible policies. Given the response to covid in most of these countries, now I think I was actually very wrong about that.

There are almost 30 countries, and I am pretty sure you're talking mostly about a handful. And given they're all doing their own thing, what does the EU and Brexit really have to do with it? We had multiple lockdowns and a totally disorganised strategy, with billions wasted in various forms of corruption - and we weren't part of the EU.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But of course the EU nationals who had spent 15+ years in the UK were also denied the vote - even though Brexit affects them directly.

If they had spent 15+ years in the UK and had therefore, apparently, chosen to make the UK their permanent home, then they presumably had ample opportunity during those 15 years to apply for British citizenship, if they wished to participate in the democratic process at national level.

It's interesting that almost 20% of the votes believe in Brexit but it's just been mishandled. It's a bit like the tankies who past communism wasn't the real one

I'm not sure that's comparable: In the case of communism/socialism, there must be dozens of countries who have at various times tried to base their economies on different variants of socialism. All have failed dismally, despite the huge variety of conditions in those countries. Also, if you pick up any decent economic textbook that teaches how markets work, you'll find ample (and academically largely, non-controversial) reasoning that explains why socialism, on the whole, can't work and why free markets generally produce much better outcomes. So there's a lot of evidence to indicate that people who think you just need the real communism are basically living in cloud cuckoo land.

On the other hand, there has only been one country that has tried Brexit. It was managed by a Prime Minister whom most people recognise to be somewhat incompetent, following 3 years of political chaos when a Parliament that largely didn't want Brexit in the first place (and a large part of which was still trying to block Brexit) couldn't decide how it wanted Brexit done. It's really not hard to plausibly see how the Brexit process might have been somewhat mismanaged (Although having said that, personally I'm not convinced that any final deal much different from what we ended up with was possible, given the UK's and the EU's respective red lines).

 

[MikeWM]

There are almost 30 countries, and I am pretty sure you're talking mostly about a handful. And given they're all doing their own thing, what does the EU and Brexit really have to do with it? We had multiple lockdowns and a totally disorganised strategy, with billions wasted in various forms of corruption - and we weren't part of the EU.

Because I don't want to be associated politically with countries that think it is fine to stop people going outside at all even to exercise (Spain) or require a permit to do so (France), that think it is fine to fine people for not undergoing a medical procedure (Greece, Austria), that think it is fine to effectively lock people in their homes that are unable to wear useless masks (Germany), that think it is fine to stop people going to a restaurant or cinema without showing government permission papers (Ireland, Italy, France again) or even food or medicine (Lithuania). If these governments have an ideology that those things are acceptable, that's something I want absolutely nothing to do with. Yes, it was bad here in the UK too, but fortunately not that bad.

You can't divorce the EU from the countries that make up the EU, or the governments of those countries.

 

[PsychoMouse]

If they had spent 15+ years in the UK and had therefore, apparently, chosen to make the UK their permanent home, then they presumably had ample opportunity during those 15 years to apply for British citizenship, if they wished to participate in the democratic process at national level.

Citizenship is costly, time consuming and at the time was unimportant as they had the right to live here with no restrictions. There was literally no advantages to gaining British citizenship for a national of another EU country prior to brexit.