Ideas for Service changes

[A0]

Yes I believe the current timetable doesn't work at all. 4 changes for me to get to Sheffield (St Albans, Luton, Kettering, Leicester).

If all intercity services call at Luton Airport Parkway, 2 changes can be cut away.

At the risk of stating the obvious - if you live in Cricklewood, why, if you're heading to Sheffield, would you head north ?

National Rail Enquiries tells you to go via St Pancras (which is 15 minutes away) - that's always going to be *far* quicker than going north on a stopper to Luton or Bedford.

 

[miklcct]

if you live in Cricklewood, why, if you're heading to Sheffield, would you head north ?

Because Sheffield is north of Cricklewood. It's that simple.

 

[miklcct]

Because Sheffield is north of Cricklewood. It's that simple.

Also it's much cheaper using a combination of tickets compared to going the circuitous way through London.

 

[The Planner]

Because Sheffield is north of Cricklewood. It's that simple.

That is genuinely mental.

 

[87015]

It has a poor service because the local landowners obstructed railway proposals ~150 years ago

The Birmingham service has only been poor since VHF when the previous fast 321s were made to call at some/half/all the hovels between Cov and New St, rather than 2tph Cov-Int'l-New St only under Silverlink.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Birmingham service has only been poor since VHF when the previous fast 321s were made to call at some/half/all the hovels between Cov and New St, rather than 2tph Cov-Int'l-New St only under Silverlink.

Well, I think that’s a bit simplistic. Back then, Central had responsibility for parts. With the mergers and such, you’ve ended up with the current position, and perfectly fine it is. I see no reason why someone can’t be made to make local stops in return for a very cheap ticket.

 

[87015]

Well, I think that’s a bit simplistic. Back then, Central had responsibility for parts. With the mergers and such, you’ve ended up with the current position, and perfectly fine it is. I see no reason why someone can’t be made to make local stops in return for a very cheap ticket.

Is Northampton-Birmingham very cheap then - Advance and LM only from Euston are, yes, but they don’t exist from Northampton do they?

 

[Ken H]

Scarborough has been served by cross-Pennine services for decades, so it isn't that much of an oddity in that sense. Though given the placing of the junction at York running it as a shuttle wouldn’t be the worst idea from a reliability standpoint.

The locals who dislike the 68s can go and tickle though. It's not as if they have to deal with them very often at the moment anyway!

Scarborough wasnt on TP back in the 60's and 70's It came in with sprinterisation
TP was hourly Manchester - Leeds. Basically Liverpool - Newcastle hauled trains with Manchester - Hull DMU's - the 2 services making the hourly Leeds - manc service
Only when you had more frequent services with Sprinters did they look around for new places to send the trains. So Scarborough, Chester/Holyhead etc. I think Middlesbrough came somewhat later.

(There were summer dated through trains to Scarborough BTW)

 

[A0]

Also it's much cheaper using a combination of tickets compared to going the circuitous way through London.

BIB..... Right...... So getting a Thameslink train 3 stops and going up 3 flights of stairs to get on a direct train to Sheffield is more "circuituous" than changing at Luton, Kettering and Leicester.

And I doubt it's "much" cheaper. There are advances available tomorrow for St P to Sheffield for £ 30........

 

[A0]

Is Northampton-Birmingham very cheap then - Advance and LM only from Euston are, yes, but they don’t exist from Northampton do they?

Bit in bold - yes they do - see screenshot from National Rail tomorrow

 

[Bartsimho]

Is Northampton-Birmingham very cheap then - Advance and LM only from Euston are, yes, but they don’t exist from Northampton do they?

I can find tickets from £8-15 these are ones from Euston. Railways compete on Speed, Price, Comfort and Availability. They all effect each other. With HS2 there is no competition on Speed, With the Class 8xx's having ironing boards for seats it's a refurbishment before it can compete for comfort. While there are several railheads in the area it is the only one pointing to Birmingham and the North-West so this incentivises travel from it so having it compete on Price and Availability is what is needed.

I think you can split journey types into several categories: Big Intercity, Small Intercity, Commuter Towns, Local and Full Stoppers. The Big Intercity routes will get wrapped into the High-Speed Lines so moving all Euston to Birmingham services to Small Intercity in the competing stretch. Beyond Birmingham they can be Big Intercity again up to Manchester and further North.

For the designations down the lower end I think the Nottingham-Lincoln line can be an example. The stopper is everywhere. Local is like Nottingham, Carlton, Burton Joyce, Newark Castle, Collingham, Hykeham, Lincoln. While the Commuter is Nottingham, Newark, Lincoln. A Small Intercity might be Nottingham, Lincoln Direct and Big Intercity never goes to Lincoln.

 

[CBlue]

At the risk of stating the obvious - if you live in Cricklewood, why, if you're heading to Sheffield, would you head north ?

National Rail Enquiries tells you to go via St Pancras (which is 15 minutes away) - that's always going to be *far* quicker than going north on a stopper to Luton or Bedford.

That is genuinely mental.

To be fair to @miklcct....he doesn't seem to be able to cope with how any public transport network works in this country, refusing to believe that hourly or less train services exist and claiming that waiting more than 15 minutes for a connection is just unacceptable. Strangely enough his repeated complaining about it on here hasn't seen the entire country's public transport system realigned to what works for him (likely to the exclusion of everyone else).

I wouldn't even bother trying to put him right.

 

[NSE]

Because Sheffield is north of Cricklewood. It's that simple.

What happens when you fly and take off in the opposite direction? Do you jump out the plane?

 

[Bald Rick]

At the risk of stating the obvious - if you live in Cricklewood, why, if you're heading to Sheffield, would you head north ?

National Rail Enquiries tells you to go via St Pancras (which is 15 minutes away) - that's always going to be *far* quicker than going north on a stopper to Luton or Bedford.

I don’t know anybody in St Albans who is heading to Derby / Sheffield etc who doesn’t go via St Pancras.

Because Sheffield is north of Cricklewood. It's that simple.

Hong Kong is east of London. Do you refuse to take any flights to HKG from Heathrow that depart westbound and turn north?

 

[miklcct]

To be fair to @miklcct....he doesn't seem to be able to cope with how any public transport network works in this country, refusing to believe that hourly or less train services exist and claiming that waiting more than 15 minutes for a connection is just unacceptable. Strangely enough his repeated complaining about it on here hasn't seen the entire country's public transport system realigned to what works for him (likely to the exclusion of everyone else).

I wouldn't even bother trying to put him right.

In Hong Kong, bus services which runs every only 20-30 minutes are very bad to form an effectively interchange network at a hub compared to hubs where bus services run every 10-12 minutes or more frequently, for example, Tsing Sha Tunnel vs Shing Mun Tunnels. The former has very little interchange usage while the latter is overcrowded, despite the network on both tunnels are designed with interchanges and no duplications in mind.

BIB..... Right...... So getting a Thameslink train 3 stops and going up 3 flights of stairs to get on a direct train to Sheffield is more "circuituous" than changing at Luton, Kettering and Leicester.

And I doubt it's "much" cheaper. There are advances available tomorrow for St P to Sheffield for £ 30........

I did a journey from Cricklewood to Dronfield on 2 January. After I added "avoid London" into the journey planner on Trainsplit, it knocked more than £10 off in advance purchase fares compared to going via London. I then added "avoid Nottingham" as well and it knocked a few more £ off.

I studied the fares and found out that, the EMR through fares were intended to use via London (starting Hendon or south - not via London fares are available north from Mill Hill Broadway), which meant that avoiding London and splitting at Bedford, using a local Thameslink ticket to get there, was always going to be cheaper.

I don’t know anybody in St Albans who is heading to Derby / Sheffield etc who doesn’t go via St Pancras.

I can't imagine it at all. St Albans is so far from London and so close to Luton Airport Parkway, that it's really a long journey going the wrong direction. Starting at Cricklewood if there is no price incentive I will do the double-back because I can save 3 changes and it's actually faster (I actually did that once using a flexible through ticket), but starting from St Albans City, National Rail Enquiries tell me that the fastest way is to travel in the correct direction doing 3 changes to Sheffield, and the "not via London" ticket is much cheaper than going via London, I will never ever consider going via St Pancras if starting at St Albans.

Hong Kong is east of London. Do you refuse to take any flights to HKG from Heathrow that depart westbound and turn north?

If I need a connecting flight between Europe and Hong Kong, I don't take flights where the connection node is way out of the great circle path between my origin and my destination, unless the price is much cheaper. For example, Aeroflot and Finnair are my top 2 airlines flying between Northern Europe and Hong Kong because the connection node (Moscow or Helsinki) is nearly on the direct flight route, and a few years ago I took Aeroflot so many times (as it is generally the cheapest and one of the very few airlines which offer daytime Hong Kong - Europe flights where the majority are overnight) that I accumuated frequent flyer status on that airline and I still have a large number of miles there thinking how I can use it now.

I don't even take Singapore Airlines, or Lufthansa into consideration flying between Hong Kong and Northern Europe because the connection node is way out, adding hours into the total flight time even with the shortest possible connection time (I book connecting flights with the connection time as close to the minimum connection time as possible, similar to taking trains).

 

[Starmill]

I don’t know anybody in St Albans who is heading to Derby / Sheffield etc who doesn’t go via St Pancras.

It costs substantially more than just to travel from London St Pancras to Derby to do this, so I assume they have deep pockets.

The Birmingham service has only been poor since VHF when the previous fast 321s were made to call at some/half/all the hovels between Cov and New St, rather than 2tph Cov-Int'l-New St only under Silverlink.

Indeed, and Tile Hill and Marston Green still have a worse service now than they did when that started.

 

[cle]

I don’t know anybody in St Albans who is heading to Derby / Sheffield

could also be a full sentence

 

[Bald Rick]

could also be a full sentence

Ha! No. Theres two people in this house alone that do it fairly often!

For example, Aeroflot and Finnair are my top 2 airlines flying between Northern Europe and Hong Kong because the connection node (Moscow or Helsinki) is nearly on the direct flight route, and a few years ago I took Aeroflot so many times (as it is generally the cheapest and one of the very few airlines which offer daytime Hong Kong - Europe flights where the majority are overnight) that I accumuated frequent flyer status on that airline and I still have a large number of miles there thinking how I can use it now.

Well you won’t be using Aeroflot for the foreseeable.

I don't even take Singapore Airlines, or Lufthansa into consideration flying between Hong Kong and Northern Europe because the connection node is way out, adding hours into the total flight time even with the shortest possible connection time (I book connecting flights with the connection time as close to the minimum connection time as possible, similar to taking trains).

I can’t imagine connecting to go to Hong Kong When there’s direct flights. what a waste of time!

It costs substantially more than just to travel from London St Pancras to Derby to do this, so I assume they have deep pockets.

or would prefer not to have to make 2-3 connections, and the risk that entails (Risk in that hanging around Luton and Leicester is not necessarily good for your health ). More pertinently, many of the people I know that do this have St Albans to London season tickets, therefore the cost differential is much smaller.

 

[zwk500]

I can't imagine it at all. St Albans is so far from London and so close to Luton Airport Parkway, that it's really a long journey going the wrong direction. Starting at Cricklewood if there is no price incentive I will do the double-back because I can save 3 changes and it's actually faster (I actually did that once using a flexible through ticket), but starting from St Albans City, National Rail Enquiries tell me that the fastest way is to travel in the correct direction doing 3 changes to Sheffield, and the "not via London" ticket is much cheaper than going via London, I will never ever consider going via St Pancras if starting at St Albans.

Out of interest how would you plan a journey like MK - York where no direct line exists? The three options to change are London, Birmingham or Manchester. The direct line between the two places passes through Nottingham. My preference was via London unless all the cheap advances had sold out.

To follow the crow's route as close as possible you're looking at MK-Nuneaton-Leicester-Sheffield-York.

 

[Bartsimho]

Out of interest how would you plan a journey like MK - York where no direct line exists? The three options to change are London, Birmingham or Manchester. The direct line between the two places passes through Nottingham. My preference was via London unless all the cheap advances had sold out.

To follow the crow's route as close as possible you're looking at MK-Nuneaton-Leicester-Sheffield-York.

London has higher fares in an out which different franchises draw at different points. My immediate thought is to Birmingham then onto an XC to York as both a faster lines. It appears the Journey time is slightly longer than into London but it's £20 cheaper

 

[PeterC]

Because Sheffield is north of Cricklewood. It's that simple.

To do the journey by road my SatNav tells me to drive south to the M25 before heading north on the M1. The most convenient route isn't necessarily the most direct.

 

[dciuk]

An issue would be being stuck behind a Cornish Mainline Stopper (Wrong track running might be possible if the Lines Signals were upgraded).

Could the fast service overtake the stopping service at Par with one of them using the Newquay Branch platform? There is also a passing loop just outside of Par, but I am not sure if passenger services can use it, or if it is bi-directional

 

[Bartsimho]

Could the fast service overtake the stopping service at Par with one of them using the Newquay Branch platform? There is also a passing loop just outside of Par, but I am not sure if passenger services can use it, or if it is bi-directional

They could use it as the Passing Loop is into the Newquay Platforms at Par and then out again. Might want an additional Platform though with the Cornwall Metro which now has funding. I don't know if you could Cannibalise the extra Siding as the Lines are 2 Cornish Mainline Platforms, 1 Newquay branch, 1 Bypass to Newquay only and a Siding. Add a Junction so the Bypass is no longer only to Newquay and add a Platform on it.

 

[zwk500]

Could the fast service overtake the stopping service at Par with one of them using the Newquay Branch platform? There is also a passing loop just outside of Par, but I am not sure if passenger services can use it, or if it is bi-directional

Fairly sure the down loop before Par isn't Passenger-rated, but could be wrong.

They could use it as the Passing Loop is into the Newquay Platforms at Par and then out again. Might want an additional Platform though with the Cornwall Metro which now has funding. I don't know if you could Cannibalise the extra Siding as the Lines are 2 Cornish Mainline Platforms, 1 Newquay branch, 1 Bypass to Newquay only and a Siding. Add a Junction so the Bypass is no longer only to Newquay and add a Platform on it.

I don't think the geometry allows for the siding to connect back to the mainline at the country end, certainly not without moving the signals around. Adding in a crossover to allow Platform 2 to be used in both directions would be easier/better value, I think.

 

[Bartsimho]

Another Service which might be possible and Useful a Brighton-Gatwick-East Croydon-Herne Hill-Blackfriars-Farringdon-St Pancras Low Level-Acton Mainline-Heathrow T2&3-Heathrow T5 and then once the line is built Slough-Maidenhead-Reading.

Direct Gatwick and Heathrow Connection and a Central/North connection. It would be better if there was a chord from the MML to the WCML (Build one which also connects HS1 and HS2 together).

 

[zwk500]

Another Service which might be possible and Useful a Brighton-Gatwick-East Croydon-Herne Hill-Blackfriars-Farringdon-St Pancras Low Level-Acton Mainline-Heathrow T2&3-Heathrow T5 and then once the line is built Slough-Maidenhead-Reading.

That'll need some OLE in between. It'll also need a major rejig of the tracks around Acton Mainline and rewrite of the timetable across the WLL and NLL to achieve, for not a lot of benefit as Gatwick-Heathrow transfers aren't exactly hard now via Farringdon and the level of traffic doesn't justify serious interventions.

It would be better if there was a chord from the MML to the WCML (Build one which also connects HS1 and HS2 together).

Facing which way on each line?

 

[Bartsimho]

That'll need some OLE in between. It'll also need a major rejig of the tracks around Acton Mainline and rewrite of the timetable across the WLL and NLL to achieve, for not a lot of benefit as Gatwick-Heathrow transfers aren't exactly hard now via Farringdon and the level of traffic doesn't justify serious interventions.

Facing which way on each line?

I went for St Pancras Low Level for the Thameslink line through the centre. From Cricklewood Curve Junction to Acton Wells Junction. I didn't realise there weren't Platforms on that line as having some for diversions so scratch that one for Ealing Broadway as I can see platforms on a closer look at the line routes and platform orientation. Could also run it to Didcot for the EWR Oxford connection but that's probably too far.

For the Chord one to avoid the Terminii like the Chord from the ECML/HS1-NLL-WCML currently. Maybe the same track as for tunnel chord connection from HS2 to HS1 as OOC can be the through connection HS2 London Station

 

[zwk500]

I went for St Pancras Low Level for the Thameslink line through the centre. From Cricklewood Curve Junction to Acton Wells Junction. I didn't realise there weren't Platforms on that line as having some for diversions so scratch that one for Ealing Broadway as I can see platforms on a closer look at the line routes and platform orientation.

You still need OLE from Cricklewood to Acton, and at Acton ML the northernmost tracks are Goods only, not passenger rated. I don't know if it's just paperwork that's stopping them from being upgraded but atm the only passenger authorised connection is the single lead at the London End.
But why is this very slow, highly conflicting, awkwardly routed service better than the single change at Farringdon between Crossrail and Thameslink?

 

[Bartsimho]

You still need OLE from Cricklewood to Acton, and at Acton ML the northernmost tracks are Goods only, not passenger rated. I don't know if it's just paperwork that's stopping them from being upgraded but atm the only passenger authorised connection is the single lead at the London End.
But why is this very slow, highly conflicting, awkwardly routed service better than the single change at Farringdon between Crossrail and Thameslink?

I was taking in the Convenience of not having to change especially as Airport Connections have luggage. The fact that stops are missed saves time on this as well. The EL trains are limited to 90mph while a Class 8xx could hit the 125 line speed of the GWML and the 110 line speed of the Heathrow Spur.
Thameslink Trains from STP to Gatwick are timetabled to take 45 minutes. Running direct from Brighton also saves time as TL stops inbetween.

 

[zwk500]

I was taking in the Convenience of not having to change especially as Airport Connections have luggage.

how many people are connecting between the Airports?

The fact that stops are missed saves time on this as well. The EL trains are limited to 90mph while a Class 8xx could hit the 125 line speed of the GWML and the 110 line speed of the Heathrow Spur.

the only trains that will be running throught the Thameslink core are class 700s, which are 100mph.

Thameslink Trains from STP to Gatwick are timetabled to take 45 minutes. Running direct from Brighton also saves time as TL stops inbetween.

Dropping stops south of London only works if the train in front is far enough ahead...
I don't mean to be overly negative, and while an extension of some Gatwick services to Brighton would be very welcome I just don't see that a slow windy service via the back lines of London is going to compete effectively against the existing options.