Should Heathrow Express be abolished, to enable more Crossrail trains to Terminal 5?

[aleph_0]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crossrail-service-pattern-from-may-2023.242908/

Worth noting that the issue for Terminal 5 is that it's served by Heathrow Express. We're getting into crayonista territory, but I'd very much be in favour of abolishing HX and integrating into Elizabeth Line services.

 

[grandgarrande]

Two issues with Abolishing Heathrow Express: there are no available paths on the reliefs for more trains and four trains crossing over to the mains is not feasible.

Secondly, TfL would need to fund an extra 10 trains

 

[Taunton]

TfL would need to fund an extra 10 trains

Surely Heathrow Express is increasingly empty stock nowadays as people get the hang of the Elizabeth.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surely Heathrow Express is increasingly empty stock nowadays as people get the hang of the Elizabeth.

This is constantly said and it annoys me so much. Us users of the HX don’t want to stop everywhere, we don’t want to lose our plug sockets and Wi-Fi, we don’t want to use the low level at Paddington and some of us use business first! Last time I used it XR was in operation and the HX was packed.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Surely Heathrow Express is increasingly empty stock nowadays as people get the hang of the Elizabeth.

Nope HEX still as busy as it was before.

 

[busestrains]

Worth noting that the issue for Terminal 5 is that it's served by Heathrow Express. We're getting into crayonista territory, but I'd very much be in favour of abolishing HX and integrating into Elizabeth Line services.

Personally i would love to see the Heathrow Express get abolished. It is a massive rip off. Such an extortionate price for such a short journey. I know that some people choose to use it but a huge amount of people who use it are simply unaware of the cheaper Elizabeth Line and London Underground options. If you walk around Heathrow Airport the Heathrow Express is heavily promoted compared to other options.

Out of interest if Heathrow Express was abolished what is the maximum amount of trains per hour you could run to and from Heathrow Airport? Would twelve trains per hour be possible? So a frequency of every five minutes in each direction?

T4 is currently every fifteen minutes but i wonder if this could be increased to every ten minutes? I know it is a single track branch but it is very short so i wonder if more frequent trains are possible? Otherwise i presume they could continue running four trains per hour to T4 and eight trains per hour to T5 to bring twelve trains per hour total?

 

[Mzzzs]

The Heathrow express target market is different to the crossrails one. That's why it hasn't failed.

 

[dk1]

Nope HEX still as busy as it was before.

Yes those that I have witnessed have been well used too.

Not sure why it bothers some about the cost. If people want to pay more for a slightly better offer then why not? Baguettes are cheaper in Greggs but I prefer to get mine from Pret. It’s just how it is.

 

[Meerkat]

Need to keep those fast paths into Heathrow for when they are pushed through to Woking and Guildford, once they finally get round to building the link (one day....)

 

[dk1]

Need to keep those fast paths into Heathrow for when they are pushed through to Woking and Guildford, once they finally get round to building the link (one day....)

And then we woke up

 

[PTR 444]

What needs to be done is for a team of people to spend a day travelling on each Heathrow Express diagram, conducting a survey asking passengers what they would do if HX ceased to exist. If the majority of passengers select Taxi or Drive as their preferred alternative mode of travel, then we certainly need to retain HX. If not, feel free to give the paths away to get Elizabeth Line.

 

[dk1]

What needs to be done is for a team of people to spend a day travelling on each Heathrow Express diagram, conducting a survey asking passengers what they would do if HX ceased to exist. If the majority of passengers select Taxi or Drive as their preferred alternative mode of travel, then we certainly need to retain HX. If not, feel free to give the paths away to get Elizabeth Line.

But hasn’t somebody already stated the pathing issues with gaining access from other than the fast lines at Airport Junction?

 

[JonathanH]

Personally i would love to see the Heathrow Express get abolished. It is a massive rip off. Such an extortionate price for such a short journey. I know that some people choose to use it but a huge amount of people who use it are simply unaware of the cheaper Elizabeth Line and London Underground options.

What you mean is that you don't value what it offers. For what it is worth, I don't either, but that doesn't mean I can't see why some people might value it.

I don't think your supposition that people are unaware of the Elizabeth Line and Piccadilly Line options is correct.

If people want to spend money in a particular way then so be it. There are plenty of analogies that could be made to other walks of life.

 

[306024]

But hasn’t somebody already stated the pathing issues with gaining access from other than the fast lines at Airport Junction?

That doesn’t mean people listen

Yes as HEX run on the mains and Liz Line on the reliefs then I’m not sure how folks intend abolishing HEX and running more Liz trains will work. Unless freight is to be abolished.

T4 is currently every fifteen minutes but i wonder if this could be increased to every ten minutes? I know it is a single track branch but it is very short so i wonder if more frequent trains are possible? Otherwise i presume they could continue running four trains per hour to T4 and eight trains per hour to T5 to bring twelve trains per hour total?

Why on Earth would you do that? Just look at how many flights use T4.
It’s a four minute run between T2/3 and T4 so mathematically possible but it would tie your whole timetable to being planned around that, with a performance risk off the scale.

 

[RailWonderer]

Heathrow Express is very well marketed at both ends. It is non-stop, and much cheaper if you book in advance, and many people pay for it. I have always seen healthy loadings on them at Paddington (although the couple I took myself were near empty). I like not having to crawl through the urban sprawl of west London to get to the airport and it's worth the upgrade for me.

 

[D365]

If HEx was to be replaced by Elizabeth Line, why would this need Relief paths?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Having used the Elizabethan Line to Heathrow, I’m going back to HEX as the former takes ages

 

[coppercapped]

If HEx was to be replaced by Elizabeth Line, why would this need Relief paths?

Are you suggesting that the extra Elizabeth line trains use the Mains and also make station calls?

If you are, then a couple of seconds thought will show that adding 90mph trains with stops on the Mains will royally screw up the Western long distance services timed at 125mph.

Or have I misunderstood your cryptic question?

 

[306024]

Having used the Elizabethan Line to Heathrow, I’m going back to HEX as the former takes ages

I use whichever line hasn’t got overhead line problems, as has happened on my last two flights from Heathrow

Depends where you are originating from or going to. From Liverpool St it’s 50/50. HEX is handy if those few minutes make a subsequent connection, but otherwise time isn’t so important.

 

[D365]

Are you suggesting that the extra Elizabeth line trains use the Mains and also make station calls?

If you are, then a couple of seconds thought will show that adding 90mph trains with stops on the Mains will royally screw up the Western long distance services timed at 125mph.

Or have I misunderstood your cryptic question?

I had in my mind a non-stop Paddington low-level - Old Oak Common - Heathrow service to replace HEx, until I realised the Great Western tracks are paired by use.

 

[Starmill]

This is constantly said and it annoys me so much. Us users of the HX don’t want to stop everywhere, we don’t want to lose our plug sockets and Wi-Fi, we don’t want to use the low level at Paddington and some of us use business first! Last time I used it XR was in operation and the HX was packed.

The WiFi issue will be resolved before long, it will be available on TfL Rail services in the tunnels. Obviously that doesn't go for any of the other points you're making.

 

[dk1]

Heathrow Express is very well marketed at both ends. It is non-stop, and much cheaper if you book in advance, and many people pay for it. I have always seen healthy loadings on them at Paddington (although the couple I took myself were near empty). I like not having to crawl through the urban sprawl of west London to get to the airport and it's worth the upgrade for me.

Famous for 15 minutes is still a fabulous advertising slogan in my opinion.

 

[danielcanning]

Why not then abolish the Heathrow Express and run the extra EL services non-stop from Paddington Low Level to Heathrow, if there are pathing issues?

 

[adamedwards]

Heathrow Express uses the main (fast) lines, EL uses the reliefs (slow) and there's no flying junction at Paddington to enable the EL to reach the main (fast) lines. The lines are paired by use hence the complexity of flyovers at the Heathrow junction.

 

[swt_passenger]

But hasn’t somebody already stated the pathing issues with gaining access from other than the fast lines at Airport Junction?

Only repeated in threads every 6 months or so for the last ten years?

 

[miklcct]

Having used the Elizabethan Line to Heathrow, I’m going back to HEX as the former takes ages

Having used the Elizabeth line to Heathrow, I've gone back to the tube as even the Elizabeth line charges a rip-off price compared to £1.90 on tube by avoiding zone 1 (without Railcard).

Note that the fastest way from my home to the airport is to bus to Paddington and Heathrow Express from there, second is Thameslink to Farringdon and Elizabeth line, or bus to Acton and Elizabeth line onwards. However, by walking to the nearest TfL station, and change at Gunnersbury / Turnham Green / Acton Town, the whole journey can be done for just £1.90 (before discount) so any other options have been thrown out by me.

 

[D365]

Heathrow Express uses the main (fast) lines, EL uses the reliefs (slow) and there's no flying junction at Paddington to enable the EL to reach the main (fast) lines. The lines are paired by use hence the complexity of flyovers at the Heathrow junction.

That's what caught me out in my 'idea'.

Only repeated in threads every 6 months or so for the last ten years?

Thanks goodness we now have a dedicated subforum for this.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Why not then abolish the Heathrow Express and run the extra EL services non-stop from Paddington Low Level to Heathrow, if there are pathing issues?

How would that avoid pathing issues?

 

[Mikey C]

The Heathrow express target market is different to the crossrails one. That's why it hasn't failed.

Not really. Most people aren't going to and from Paddington, so even if they're not worried about the cost, being able to take a train directly across London to the West End, City or Canary Wharf may be a tipping point, whether they're tourists of Goldman Sachs bankers.

Especially as the current taxi rank at Paddington is quite a walk from the platforms when compared to the old one.

 

[stuu]

To get to the fast lines from Paddington Low Level, you would have to cross all the approach lines to the main station. Then that train would run at 90mph max (versus 110mph for Class 387). Four times an hour. So yes, there are some serious timetabling issues