Rejected Avanti Compensation

[m4tt]

Hi everyone,

Having finally getting around the contacting the ombudsman, I recieved updates on 3 of my outstanding cases after 5 months of waiting from Avanti. One was successful whilst the other 2 were not. They claimed that they had no record of the service being declassifed and as such cannot offer any compensation. This was on the 18th August which was a strike day. Is their position on this correct?

I travelled from MK to Manchester and then from Preston back to Euston, both services had no 1st class hosts and when a member of staff came through (who was filling as a guard due to strikes) checked my ticket and said something along the lines of 1st was declassifed. Does this entitle me to compensation?

From the email I recieved back:

"I have looked into this for you, and I regret to inform you that we are not able to offer compensation for your ticket on this occasion. This is because, having checked our systems, we cannot find any record of the service you travelled on being declassified. As we are unable to authorise compensation without records confirming the declassification, we are unable to offer compensation for this journey. I appreciate this was not the answer you were hoping for, and I do apologise for any disappointment caused."

I got the same responce for a journey on a non-strike day as well that was declassifled too so there seems to be quite a bit of inconsistancy. Just a bit annoying after chasing them up so many times.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi everyone,

Having finally getting around the contacting the ombudsman, I recieved updates on 3 of my outstanding cases after 5 months of waiting from Avanti. One was successful whilst the other 2 were not. They claimed that they had no record of the service being declassifed and as such cannot offer any compensation. This was on the 18th August which was a strike day. Is their position on this correct?

The train company is the one who decides if the train is declassified. If a guard declassifies a train and no record is kept, then it will be hard to enforce your rights in this regard. It’s not good but it is what it is.

I travelled from MK to Manchester and then from Preston back to Euston, both services had no 1st class hosts and when a member of staff came through (who was filling as a guard due to strikes) checked my ticket and said something along the lines of 1st was declassifed. Does this entitle me to compensation?

When you say “along the lines of”, did they actually say it was declassified? Simply not having a host isn’t the same as the service being declassified.

 

[m4tt]

When you say “along the lines of”, did they actually say it was declassified? Simply not having a host isn’t the same as the service being declassified.

Yeah they mentioned that the train was declassifed but perhaps he just ment there would be no service. They were not a guard but instead a member of staff filling in for the strikes. TBH I was the only one in 2 coaches of 1st class.

 

[Haywain]

Yeah they mentioned that the train was declassifed but perhaps he just ment there would be no service. They were not a guard but instead a member of staff filling in for the strikes. TBH I was the only one in 2 coaches of 1st class.

Did he say that "there's no first class service on the train"? That would not be the same as declassified.

 

[m4tt]

Did he say that "there's no first class service on the train"? That would not be the same as declassified.

He said declassified. As those filling in are not trained as guards or revenue protection, do they have the ability to enforce 1st class restrictions anyway?

 

[Haywain]

He said declassified. As those filling in are not trained as guards or revenue protection, do they have the ability to enforce 1st class restrictions anyway?

The presence or qualification of staff doesn't, in itself, affect the enforcement of first class restrictions.

 

[Watershed]

Hi everyone,

Having finally getting around the contacting the ombudsman, I recieved updates on 3 of my outstanding cases after 5 months of waiting from Avanti. One was successful whilst the other 2 were not. They claimed that they had no record of the service being declassifed and as such cannot offer any compensation. This was on the 18th August which was a strike day. Is their position on this correct?

I travelled from MK to Manchester and then from Preston back to Euston, both services had no 1st class hosts and when a member of staff came through (who was filling as a guard due to strikes) checked my ticket and said something along the lines of 1st was declassifed. Does this entitle me to compensation?

From the email I recieved back:

"I have looked into this for you, and I regret to inform you that we are not able to offer compensation for your ticket on this occasion. This is because, having checked our systems, we cannot find any record of the service you travelled on being declassified. As we are unable to authorise compensation without records confirming the declassification, we are unable to offer compensation for this journey. I appreciate this was not the answer you were hoping for, and I do apologise for any disappointment caused."

I got the same responce for a journey on a non-strike day as well that was declassifled too so there seems to be quite a bit of inconsistancy. Just a bit annoying after chasing them up so many times.

Thanks for any advice.

There is nothing in the NRCoT which requires the operator to hold a record, or for you to have your ticket endorsed, for you to be eligible to claim a partial refund for declassification.

So essentially they are implying that they don't believe you, i.e. that you're lying - charming. It's funny how Delay Repay claims are paid on trust, yet they're being difficult about this.

Unfortunately there isn't really any penalty for them wrongly rejecting claims in this manner. You will almost certainly have to take them to Court to get what you're owed, unless you're eligible to make a section 75 claim against your credit card lender. Obviously you might consider that not to be worth your time and effort, but sometimes a Letter Before Claim will extract what you're owed, without you actually having to bring the claim.

 

[All Line Rover]

During strike days, first class is/was unavailable and first class tickets are/were withdrawn. In the Strikes FAQs page on Avanti's website, there was a question to this effect: "Will first class be available?" "No, first class will not be provided and first class tickets will not be available for sale."

In effect, first class was declassified on all Avanti trains. There was no reason for a guard on any individual train to "report" this. If you purchased a first class ticket before they were withdrawn from sale, you did not receive what you paid for and are entitled to a partial refund.

You should probably bring this to the attention of Avanti's customer services department, but I find it remarkable that any person working in a customer services department could be so ignorant of how their own employer operates.

 

[m4tt]

During strike days, first class is/was unavailable and first class tickets are/were withdrawn. In the Strikes FAQs page on Avanti's website, there was a question to this effect: "Will first class be available?" "No, first class will not be provided and first class tickets will not be available for sale."

In effect, first class was declassified on all Avanti trains. There was no reason for a guard on any individual train to "report" this. If you purchased a first class ticket before they were withdrawn from sale, you did not receive what you paid for and are entitled to a partial refund.

You should probably bring this to the attention of Avanti's customer services department, but I find it remarkable that any person working in a customer services department could be so ignorant of how their own employer operates.

Thanks, just had a read through the website and that does seem to support my point. They have sent me a deadlock letter via email, can I still reply to that email with the link to their strike action information or do I have to submit a new claim?

 

[All Line Rover]

There is no harm in doing so, but I would also complain to the Rail Ombudsman straight away as this will get the ball rolling. If Avanti comes back with a satisfactory response in the meantime, excellent, the Rail Ombudsman can close their file.

 

[m4tt]

Hi everyone, had an update from the rail ombusman.

-

I am contacting you with regards to the above case against Avanti West Coast (the Rail Service Provider - "RSP"). You have rejected the RSP's offer. If mediation cannot achieve settlement, the Rail Ombudsman will make a final decision on your entitlement.

I understand your complaint is concerning your journey on the 18th August 2022. You did not receive a First Class service on your journey to Manchester Piccadilly and also on your way back to London. You also experienced complaints handling issues.

The RSP have provided the following explanation:

"I am sorry to hear about the Consumer's experience. I fully understand their frustration behind the length of time taken to get this matter resolved.

In relation to the case handling, I would like to kindly advise that the Consumers case was held with another department due to the number of claims submitted in a short time span. I appreciate that the Consumer is not at fault here; however our team were required to ensure that each case was handled appropriately. I would like it to be noted that the Consumer did receive a full response with the outcome of no compensation due.

Having reviewed this case specifically, I have checked our records and can confirm that the 18/08/2022 was an Industrial Strike Day but we have no confirmation on the logs to suggest declassification. This was relayed back to the Consumer. However, I can confirm that we were running a reduced service (no food or drink) for Strike days.

As there was no declassification of the service, we would not be able to offer the monetary compensation for the Std equivalent. But I am happy to offer compensation for the lack of complimentary food or drink on the service.

Therefore, in line with our compensation guidelines, we would typically issue a 25% Discount Code under these circumstances. However given the overall experience, I would like to increase the offer to 50% Discount Code as a gesture of goodwill. "

I am going to assign the case for further review but if there is any further evidence or information you would like to add to the complaint please upload this to the case file.

-

Is there anything you reccomend I provide them with? I'm not too sure what I have to do atm but I assume they will get in touch again. I recieved this email after rejecting the 50% offer

Thanks

 

[All Line Rover]

The lying bastards!

You could refer the ombudsman to the FAQs on Avanti's own website (here from the December strikes: https://web.archive.org/web/2022122...antiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/strike):

Q: "Why are no First Class tickets available on strike days?"
A: "No First Class tickets are available, as there’ll be no First Class service onboard on strike days. Avanti West Coast’s First Class Lounges will also be closed."

Q: "I had a First Class ticket for travel on a strike day. Will I be compensated?"
A: "if you do need to travel on a strike day, please get in touch with our Customer Resolutions Centre after your journey, where our team will look into any compensation you may be due. Please complete this webform (https://www.railhelp.co.uk/avantiwestcoast/make-a-complaint/on-train/first-class-service) if your prebooked First Class journey was affected by the strike action."

 

[AlterEgo]

The lying bastards!

You could refer the ombudsman to the FAQs on Avanti's own website (here from the December strikes: https://web.archive.org/web/2022122...antiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/strike):

Q: "Why are no First Class tickets available on strike days?"
A: "No First Class tickets are available, as there’ll be no First Class service onboard on strike days. Avanti West Coast’s First Class Lounges will also be closed."

Q: "I had a First Class ticket for travel on a strike day. Will I be compensated?"
A: "if you do need to travel on a strike day, please get in touch with our Customer Resolutions Centre after your journey, where our team will look into any compensation you may be due. Please complete this webform (https://www.railhelp.co.uk/avantiwestcoast/make-a-complaint/on-train/first-class-service) if your prebooked First Class journey was affected by the strike action."

Boom, got ‘em. Clearly declassified.

 

[John Palmer]

I tried to access that page via the Wayback Machine, but found myself unable to view those drop-down FAQ responses either in the Internet Explorer or Firefox browsers (guessing this may have been due to a pop-up about cookies not displaying correctly in either browser). The ombudsman might have the same difficulty, so provision of a full screenshot of the relevant web page may help to get the point across.

Note the non sequitur of "we have no confirmation on the logs to suggest declassification" becoming "As there was no declassification of the service". The second does not follow from the first, and I would be drawing the ombudsman's attention to this. Perhaps he might be invited to ask Avanti to supply details from the change logs for their web pages of how publication of the the statement on non-availability of first class tickets came to be included in their FAQs. Someone in Avanti must have signed that off.

 

[m4tt]

Thanks all for the advice, Ill send that their way in the hope it boosts the chances of success for my case. My journey was in August however so could they turn around and say these conditions are not applicable to the journey I made?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks all for the advice, Ill send that their way in the hope it boosts the chances of success for my case. My journey was in August however so could they turn around and say these conditions are not applicable to the journey I made?

They could try and claim that the same blanket policy wasn't in place at that time. Ultimately, I don't think it really matters because the Ombudsman has shown itself to be a complete waste of space, that will just accept whatever argument a TOC makes. They could claim the earth was flat and the Ombudsman would take their word for it!

 

[pelli]

Looking at the Wayback machine, the URL https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/strike was in use from October 2022, but the longer URL https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/plan-your-journey/strike was in use before then, including versions archived on 9, 10, 13, 15 August 2022. In particular, on 15 August (see attached screenshot), the FAQ stated:

Q: Why are no First Class tickets available on strike days?
A: No First Class tickets are available, as there’ll be no First Class service onboard on strike days. Avanti West Coast’s First Class Lounges will also be closed. We’re sorry for the inconvenience this will cause.

Q: I had a First Class ticket for travel on a strike day. Will I be compensated?
A: If you have pre-booked tickets dated for travel on 13 August or from 18 to 21 August, you can claim a full refund with no admin fee from your point of purchase. Find out how, here.
On 13 August, there will be no Avanti West Coast services running on any of our routes. Please do not try to travel on this date.
Although we do strongly advise to only travel if absolutely necessary on 18 and 20 August, if you do need to travel on a strike day, please get in touch with our Customer Resolutions Centre after your journey, where our team will look into any compensation you may be due. Please complete this webform if your First Class journey was affected by the strike action.

Note that both here and in the quotes above by @All Line Rover , strictly speaking it is only stated that no (further) First Class tickets will be sold, that there will be no First Class service (which could be argued to mean just no food and drink), and that some unspecified amount of compensation may be due - not that the First Class compartments are declassified, nor that First Class ticket holders will be refunded the full price difference compared with Standard Class.

Regarding the discount codes, is Avanti's standard practice to give a 25% off voucher when first class service is not provided? If so, surely the OP should originally have been given two such vouchers - one for each leg - which is more or less equivalent to a single 50% off voucher, so with a goodwill gesture on top due to the mishandling they should be insisting on getting two 50% off vouchers? Or is the standard offering just a 12.5% off voucher per un-serviced leg?

Anyhow, wouldn't one or two 50% vouchers off a future journey be worth more than being refunded the difference between first and standard fares, unless this journey was exceptionally expensive and out of the ordinary for the OP as well as anyone they know that might be willing to buy the voucher off them?

 

[m4tt]

Hi everyone,

Had another email stating my case has been moved on yet it seems to just be going around in circles. Yet again they are asking for evidence relating my case, despite having sent this before. On top of that it seems they have asked the RSP for another responce which to my understanding was the offer I rejected at the early stage. If anyone can give any advice (albeit from what I understand the Rail Ombudsman does not have a good rep on this forum) it would be greatly appreciated. Cheers

"I am the Ombudsman that has been assigned to the final stage of your case against Avanti West Coast. I understand that your complaint broadly concerns the provision of first-class service on your journeys.

My role in the initial stages is to seek an informal resolution to the dispute through mediation. If a settlement agreement is not reached at mediation stage, the case will proceed to an adjudication, in which I will impartially investigate the case and evaluate the evidence, making a decision. It may be the case that I believe the complaint should be upheld and request the Rail Service Provider (“RSP”) puts it right, or I may feel their offer (if made) is reasonable and in line with your legal entitlement. Alternatively, I may decide the RSP has not acted incorrectly.

I note that you have claimed that first-class was declassified on the services you travelled on. The RSP has rejected this, on the basis that they have no records of declassification on the services you travelled on. If you have supporting evidence of declassification, please ensure this is supplied.

In the meantime, I have approached the RSP for further comment and will get back to you once I receive a response. Should you have any questions, please let me know."

 

[Adam Williams]

Yet again they are asking for evidence relating my case, despite having sent this before.

Useless.

Once the ombudsman makes a decision, you can and should complain about the ombudsman's service in general and their lack of ability to read.

Once your ombudsman complaint hits "stage two" you will be entitled to have your case referred to and investigated by the independent assessor assigned to the Ombudsman. Cases which end up getting complained about in this way get totted up and discussed in the Ombudsman's annual service report. Currently they like to shout about their low escalation rate in their report, which I suspect is much more likely due to customers getting fed up of fighting than anything to do with the Ombudsman's "expertise" at dealing with complaints, and in this case it is clear - like in many other cases discussed here - that the Rail Ombudsman is failing to provide a service that is fit for purpose.

 

[Birkonian]

Looking at the Wayback machine, the URL https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/strike was in use from October 2022, but the longer URL https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/plan-your-journey/strike was in use before then, including versions archived on 9, 10, 13, 15 August 2022. In particular, on 15 August (see attached screenshot), the FAQ stated:

Note that both here and in the quotes above by @All Line Rover , strictly speaking it is only stated that no (further) First Class tickets will be sold, that there will be no First Class service (which could be argued to mean just no food and drink), and that some unspecified amount of compensation may be due - not that the First Class compartments are declassified, nor that First Class ticket holders will be refunded the full price difference compared with Standard Class.

Regarding the discount codes, is Avanti's standard practice to give a 25% off voucher when first class service is not provided? If so, surely the OP should originally have been given two such vouchers - one for each leg - which is more or less equivalent to a single 50% off voucher, so with a goodwill gesture on top due to the mishandling they should be insisting on getting two 50% off vouchers? Or is the standard offering just a 12.5% off voucher per un-serviced leg?

Anyhow, wouldn't one or two 50% vouchers off a future journey be worth more than being refunded the difference between first and standard fares, unless this journey was exceptionally expensive and out of the ordinary for the OP as well as anyone they know that might be willing to buy the voucher off them?

I travelled 1st class on an Avanti train before Christmas. There were staff shortages and I was told that there was no food and drink service. I claimed on that basis (I didn't say it was declassified because it wasn't) and received a cheque for 50% of my ticket cost.

 

[m4tt]

I travelled 1st class on an Avanti train before Christmas. There were staff shortages and I was told that there was no food and drink service. I claimed on that basis (I didn't say it was declassified because it wasn't) and received a cheque for 50% of my ticket cost.

There seems to be little consistancy with what they award tbh. I already have 8 25% off codes for Avanti from my summer's travels so am not really interested in giving in. It's pretty hard to convince myself to go out and use them based on their current service.

 

[Watershed]

I travelled 1st class on an Avanti train before Christmas. There were staff shortages and I was told that there was no food and drink service. I claimed on that basis (I didn't say it was declassified because it wasn't) and received a cheque for 50% of my ticket cost.

Given that the food and drink service is the only differentiating factor between first class and Standard Premium on Avanti, I would (as a minimum) expect to receive the difference between the cost of the first class ticket you bought, and the closest equivalent SP ticket.

 

[m4tt]

Another update! to my surprise I have recieved a cash offer which I think I will accept. I'll attatch the email so you guys can take a look at the ombudsman's responce as they don't seem to get much publicity here.

"The headline is that Avanti have offered £30.86 in settlement. This accounts for a refund of the first-class portion of your ticket for each of the two journeys. The amount offered if the same as a declassification offer. I have reviewed Avanti’s calculation in this respect and am satisfied with their calculation. They have noted that this offer is also in respect of the handling of your complaint.

This has been calculated by dividing the ticket cost by 14 and doing the same for the standard class equivalent. The difference is multiplied by two. Technically, this would account for two full days of declassified first-class services. Please note that this is offer is likely to be above what I can award if the case were to proceed to a written decision, based upon my objective review to date.

Therefore, please review the above and let me know whether you accept.

Kind regards"

My ticket was a 14 day 1st class ALR so I guess they have done the difference between the 2nd and 1st and given a 1/7 of the price back to account for 2 journeys. I can't really complain as after all the delay repay claimed I only really paid about £50-£100 thanks to a generous refund from EMR. Thank you all for the advice whilst I delt with this claim

Matt

 

[Hadders]

Good that you got to the right result in the end but it really shouldn't have taken the Ombudsman to have taken so long to get it sorted. It's very straightforward, they should simply have told Avanti what they needed to do and be done with it.

 

[Kite159]

Shame they didn't add on a small amount as a gesture of goodwill to say sorry for the handling of the complaint. Even if it got taken up to £50

 

[Master29]

Quite poor on Avanti's part that you had to go through all this to get an eventual refund. Just bandying with semantics to get out of it.