Best and Worst Train Companies Ever.

[yorksrob]

Answers to these and similar questions may be found in the book “All Change. British Railway Privatisation” edited by Freeman and Shaw and published by McGraw-Hill in 2000.

To set the scene — BR had been losing traffic practically since its formation. It had last covered all its costs in 1951-2 and a couple of years later it no longer covered its operating costs. Since then it had been in receipt of a subsidy and by the time active steps were made to privatise it these had been paid for 35 years.

The issue was how best to manage decline as economically as possible and it was recognised from the beginning that continuing subsidy would be needed. As taxpayers' money was to be routed to private companies the method selected had to be as clear and transparent as possible

At different times five models for privatisation of passenger train operations were put forward by different groups, being the Cabinet Office, the DfT, the Treasury and some outside parties. Very briefly these were:

• BR plc
• Regional - essentially re-creating the ‘Big 4’ (but could have been up to 12)
• Sectorisation
• A 'Track Authority'
• A hybrid of these models.

So several models were available - and the supporters of each produced their own arguments. The was no ‘basic premise’ on the part of government that one model be selected over the others apart from the feeling that costs could be reduced and the quality of service improved if the private sector were to be involved.

There were all sorts of arguments within the working groups on how to handle the necessary on-going subsidy.

The ‘BR plc’ approach was ruled out because, unlike the privatisation of BAA and telecoms and similar, BR was not profitable. Selling shares to the small investor on the basis that any dividends were reliant on the level of subsidy received from the Government would not have worked. This was also true of the 'Regional' model.

In the same way any ideas of a ‘trade sale’ were abandoned as no company would take on the risk.

'Open Access' bidding for paths on a monthly or bi-monthly basis was not applicable because of the inter-related nature of railway operations. So that was dropped as well. It was decided the best way to handle the subsidy issue was for potential train operators to bid for a group of services (the 'Track Authority' model as the train operators would not be responsible for the infrastructure)- a clear figure was available for each area and any cross-subsidy between profitable and loss-making services was up to the individual operators to manage. This avoided the DfT having to identify costs and revenues on an individual service basis.

There's a cheerlead for privatisation.

The reality is that BR were "getting there" by the 1990's, and the sectors were more than capable of growing the business.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

There's a cheerlead for privatisation.

The reality is that BR were "getting there" by the 1990's, and the sectors were more than capable of growing the business.

2 of 3 Sectors could function as private company to be honest. Only one that could not would be Regional Railways.

 

[yorksrob]

British Rail in 70s and 80 was ridiculed by general public. British Rail sandwiches were the jokes, Passenger number lowest ever, allegedly “old trains” even if they were only like 25-ish years old. It was honestly 70s was wost period in railways history. The Network was put to neglect, unfortunately.

The 70's were the nadir. The closure programme almost certainly added to the cycle of decline. How can one rely on the local train service if they're being closed all the time.

2 of 3 Sectors could function as private company to be honest. Only one that could not would be Regional Railways.

Why should they have to operate as a private company though ? They worked as commercially minded public companies for several years.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Why should they have to operate as a private company though ? They worked as commercially minded public companies for several years.

The Thatcher government ended Subsidy to InterCity and Possibly NSE. They wanted only Regional Railways to have any subsidys, because they could honestly not survive on ticket revenue only.

 

[yorksrob]

The Thatcher government ended Subsidy to InterCity and Possibly NSE. They wanted only Regional Railways to have any subsidys, because they could honestly not survive on ticket revenue only.

Yes, that happened, but the sectors were still publicly owned members of the BR family at the time. Just because subsidy ended for some sectors, didn't make them private.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

The closure programme almost certainly added to the cycle of decline. How can one rely on the local train service if they're being closed all the time.

Beeching Cuts basically ended in 1973-ish, I am not saying closures ended, but they become more rarer. Rather, BR just let branch lines go through neglect unfortunately. Beeching was necessary, Railways Would be destroyed further In long term, basically something like Serpell Option A.

Yes, that happened, but the sectors were still publicly owned members of the BR family at the time. Just because subsidy ended for some sectors, didn't make them private.

I know, Thatcher ironically declared privatisation of BR was a privatisation too far!

 

[Ken H]

As this thread is in the section headed History and Nostalgia, I would have expected some railway historian to come up with some truly dreadful stories from the pre-grouping era. There were lots of tiny little companies at the start of the railways, plenty of whom would have made the slang expression "cattle-class" a realistic description of their services. And in the early days the actual concept of passenger safety was an entirely novel one.

well the obvious one was the Oxford Worcester and Wolverhampton Railway, or 'the old worse and worse'. Not really sure why it was called that. But they did have the Round Oak accident in 1858.

 

[yorksrob]

Beeching Cuts basically ended in 1973-ish, I am not saying closures ended, but they become more rarer. Rather, BR just let branch lines go through neglect unfortunately. Beeching was necessary, Railways Would have destroyed further In long term, basically something like Serpell Option A.


I know, Thatcher ironically declared privatisation of BR was a privatisation too far!

Well, the closures may have petered out in the mid-1980's, but the perception of your line potentially getting the chop, would have lingered.

The later BR policy of rationalisation - think Whitby, Marshlink, may not have been ideal, but it was a million times better than closure as it left the routes available for future growth.

Agree that Mrs T had a pragmatic approach to the railway.

 

[matt_world2004]

Heathrow connect. You had stations like Hanwell not receiving a service for weeks on end because the Heathrow connect was used to shore up the Heathrow express . I think it had a ppm of 84% which is incredibly low.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Frankly I think some lines like Heart of Wales Line should have gone, at cost of saving things like Waverley line, A line 10x more used than a rural line that was just saved because it run through “marginal” constituencys. Welsh Marches Line did the same job just faster.

That was the issue with BR or Minister of Transport more specifically, was that lines like the Waverley and Great Central were shut yet very rural lines like Heart of Wales were kept open. I would also retain some steam loco on Settle to Carlisle to operate passenger lines, like a mainline heritage line.

 

[yorksrob]

Frankly I think some lines like Heart of Wales Line should have gone, at cost of saving things like Waverley line, A line 10x more used than a rural line that was just saved because it run through “marginal” constituencys. Welsh Marches Line did the same job just faster.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul. The Heart of Wales lines had their reasons for surviving, but if there hadn't been a policy for slashing route milage at all cost, other lines such as the Waverley might have survived as well.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Beeching was just a scapegoat, the real villain was Ernest Marple, who only like roads probably to make more money for his construction company. Beeching actually wasn’t too bad. Railway closures were going to happen, but when they did close a line they should have retained the track bed, so they can reinstate the rails in more demanding times.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul. The Heart of Wales lines had their reasons for surviving, but if there hadn't been a policy for slashing route milage at all cost, other lines such as the Waverley might have survived as well.

Frankly, the most stupid closure threat was Electric lines out of Liverpool Exchange. Why close them, they were decently used. Luckily it was reprived as they would rightly be massive outrage at closure. Today it is part of great Merseyrail network.

Beeching laid the grounds for efficent running of a railway. Must give him praise that that.

 

[yorksrob]

Beeching was just a scapegoat, the real villain was Ernest Marple, who only like roads probably to make more money for his construction company. Beeching actually wasn’t too bad. Railway closures were going to happen, but when they did close a line they should have retained the track bed, so they can reinstate the rails in more demanding times.

Well, that's not entirely true. Dr Beeching was a prominent member of the Stedeford Committee, which formed railway policy during the Marples era. I've read some suggestions that his hawkish view on railway closures contributed to his appointment as Chairman.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Well, that's not entirely true. Dr Beeching was a prominent member of the Stedeford Committee, which formed railway policy during the Marples era. I've read some suggestions that his hawkish view on railway closures contributed to his appointment as Chairman.

Well Marples had at least part In the cuts. Beeching said in an interview “I had total support of Ernest Marple”.

The Early 50s the Railways were doing alright. It was only in the Mid to Late 50s things started going downhill.

 

[yorksrob]

Beeching was just a scapegoat, the real villain was Ernest Marple, who only like roads probably to make more money for his construction company. Beeching actually wasn’t too bad. Railway closures were going to happen, but when they did close a line they should have retained the track bed, so they can reinstate the rails in more demanding times.


Frankly, the most stupid closure threat was Electric lines out of Liverpool Exchange. Why close them, they were decently used. Luckily it was reprived as they would rightly be massive outrage at closure. Today it is part of great Merseyrail network.

Beeching laid the grounds for efficent running of a railway. Must give him praise that that.

Well, there is a suggestion that he listed those lines because he expected them to be reprieved through social necessity.

The thing I will praise him for is that he absolutely made clear his thoughts, policies and calculations on what he wanted to do and why. I think the policy was flawed, but at least he was open about it.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

I don’t think railways in 60s were that awful. It was just a group of causes that caused Beeching. I think The signs of Cuts and Rationalisation was in very very late 60s.

The Modernistation plan was also another factor that caused Beeching to happen. Diesel being forced into service too quick. Buliding too many different type of loco Instead of few standardised types. Also GWR independence was cause WR managers going for Diesel Hydraulic instead of having unified standard of Diesel Electrics. Also steam should have been withdrawn gradually. Some of best Big Four steam locos and Standards should have remained until like about 1975/1980 respectively.

 

[Iskra]

The current Transpennine franchise has to to be the worst for failing to run an adequate train service so consistently, over the greatest length of time. Plus, the absolute audacity of their P-coding in trying to cover up the scale of the problem and further mismanagement contributing to the making it worse, rather than better. The only redeeming feature is the quality and turnout of their fleet (but that doesn't count for all that much if it doesn't turn up for passengers).

10/10 for vision, 1/10 for delivery.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Having read this thread with some approval (and some tutting) , the non-innovation award has to go to Connex (SE) - yes some 365's on outer Kent Coast , but the pride of NSE , the inner suburban Networkers were allowed to be comprehensively trashed by vandalism and neglect. I am told by an ex BR man who fought a losing battle at Connex against the French influence (hardly the best ambience operators in the Paris region especially - to this day if you have "enjoyed" the RER) - they had no interest in much cleaning etc above the solebar , but when they were booted off , they had to pay substantial money to restore the 46x class to a non graffiti , cleaner, and importantly non window etched state. Every single window on that large fleet had to be replaced.

I can only surmise also , that a very hard and complex network to operate , required a very special qualified management team. A respected one. The franchise as agreed , had very challenging targets for revenue and patronage growth - (almost incredible really) , which to accept has to be the fault of OPRAF as it was at the time.

 

[Ken H]

Post privatisation I am going Virgin X country in the early days. The HST's and 47's + Mk 2 sets were not that bad - just needed some TLC. But they cut maintenance and the service fell apart, so they blamed old trains. I think they cut maintenance spend to the level the voyagers would need and it wasn't enough.
Not helped by Railtrack falling apart with Gauge corner cracking mind.
I was commuting Cheltenham to Bristol then. I would say 2 out of 5 days in a week the train was that late I just drove. I called train enquiries and found out how it was running on the way to the station. If it was badly late I drove.
Did day returns. never considered a season.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Railtrack was So bad, that they were just bad, they were murderous. Killing people because they can’t be bothered to maintain the track themselves so they do it on cheap with private contractor. I feel sorry for familes who had to lose love ones just because of idiot company incompetence.

I think Railtrack should be nominated for highest Manslaughter count ever on Britain’s railways.

Honestly It even worse than Connex if count more than passenger services.

Having read this thread with some approval (and some tutting) , the non-innovation award has to go to Connex (SE) - yes some 365's on outer Kent Coast , but the pride of NSE , the inner suburban Networkers were allowed to be comprehensively trashed by vandalism and neglect. I am told by an ex BR man who fought a losing battle at Connex against the French influence (hardly the best ambience operators in the Paris region especially - to this day if you have "enjoyed" the RER) - they had no interest in much cleaning etc above the solebar , but when they were booted off , they had to pay substantial money to restore the 46x class to a non graffiti , cleaner, and importantly non window etched state. Every single window on that large fleet had to be replaced.

This is just makes more angry about Railway company that has been out of existence for 20 years. Everyone window On Networkers had to be replaced. Wow great company Connex NOT!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Railtrack was So bad, that they were just bad, they were murderous. Killing people because they can’t be bothered to maintain the track themselves so they do it on cheap with private contractor. I feel sorry for familes who had to lose love ones just because of idiot company incompetence.

I think Railtrack should be nominated for highest Manslaughter count ever on Britain’s railways.

Honestly It even worse than Connex if count more than passenger services.


This is just makes more angry about Railway company that has been out of existence for 20 years. Everyone window On Networkers had to be replaced. Wow great company Connex NOT!

Yes , I read the fleet condition (audit) report on the 46x fleet , and the horrendous extent of etching was correct. An audit done by practical ,independant and non emotional fleet engineering management - the internal state of the saloons was awful. Multiple burns on the seats (arson attempts ?) , and hard to remove graffiti which was some years old. As for the toilets .........

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Yes , I read the fleet condition (audit) report on the 46x fleet , and the horrendous extent of etching was correct. An audit done by practical ,independant and non emotional fleet engineering management - the internal state of the saloons was awful. Multiple burns on the seats (arson attempts ?) , and hard to remove graffiti which was some years old. As for the toilets .........

Could I have link please.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Where the link?

Where the link?

Confidential , commercial and not for public information.

(and that is my last word on the matter)

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Ok

Honestly I wouldn’t feel safe travelling on Ultra Vandalised Train. Did Managers at Connex have brains?

 

[yorksrob]

Should have stuck with NSE really.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Yeah Blame John Major.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah Blame John Major.

I do

 

[Merseyrailfan]

It so terrible that Connex destroyed One of NSE pride of modernity: The Networkers.

It even worse because significant amount of Networkers were still in NSE Livery. Train Abuse I call it.

 

[yorksrob]

It so terrible that Connex destroyed One of NSE pride of modernity: The Networkers.

I'm not that fussed about the Networkers. It's more that they didn't maintain their best fleet - the slammers, in as good a condition as SWT managed.

After all that's gone on, I do like South Eastern as they are now. Lots of lovely trips through the beautiful Kent countryside on lovely Electrostars - all very calming

 

[Merseyrailfan]

I'm not that fussed about the Networkers. It's more that they didn't maintain their best fleet - the slammers, in as good a condition as SWT managed.

Ok, But Networkers were even worse condition than the slammers. They had to replace nearly or even all windows on Networkers, that how bad vandalism had gone, yet they could not do even basic work on them.

This is photo of how bad it was

465044 : Gillingham

Network SouthEast Class 465 unit No. 465044 stands at Gillingham at the rear of a service to Charing Cross

www.flickr.com