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Best and Worst Train Companies Ever.

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Mcr Warrior

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They did reprive socially neccassary lines through subsidy. We should thank Barbara Castle for that.
How many (and/or which) lines did Barbara Castle actually reprieve? Had thought that she had mostly rubber-stamped the closure of lines already proposed for closure by the previous Conservative administration.
 
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yorksrob

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How many (and/or which) lines did Barbara Castle actually reprieve? Had thought that she had mostly rubber-stamped the closure of lines already proposed for closure by the previous Conservative administration.

The remaining Whitby line for one.
 

Iskra

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The denigration of the "BR sandwich" is a pathetic standing joke , much used by stand-up comics in the past , and perpetuated as a cheap jibe by Grant Schapps relatively recently (surprised he did not get in the "wrong kind of snow" jibe as well.

HOWEVER - some truth across the whole UK about low standards of catering in all areas. Not just the railways

Post war expectations were for example , modelled on expectations of the silver screen of Ice Cream Parlours , burger joints and diners etc. It look a long time to recover after Austerity measures and the everage cafe used by most was the ultimate greasy spoon (resturaunts were better of course - but way below the standards of today in terms of choice etc). The UK had "British Resturaunts etc.

Anyway - BR catering was probably not very exciting in the 1970's ( white bread sandwiches with cheese , ham , ham and tomato - and not much else - packaged fruitless pies , crisps in grease proof bags) - "standard" dining cars doing soup , meat and 2 veg , solid puddings with custard or cheddar and crackers.

However - national catering was on the up - and come the Inter City 125 , a very noticeable transformation took place - significantly BR "invented" - the pre packed sandwich of various innovative fillings - (idea of Pru Leith) on train "fast food" like the 20p Express Burger with chips etc etc. BR smartened up station catering , memorable with the Bistro concept (Liverpool St being quite superb) - and so on.

The utter transformation of catering post war from a "desert" to today , took a long time - first in the High St , and later on to the railway. ......there are many books on this matter. It was not all great - and catering almost always lost money.


As certain journalists said - the delight of a prepared in front of you toasted Bacon sandwich on a cold day , served in a MK1 was pretty decent comfort food. (even if the staff were ever so slightly on the fiddle , prepping up on train food from their own resources)



i
An interesting post. What was the fayre at buffet stations, such as Normanton where trains would stop specifically do you know?

However, aren't we back at 'desert' status today, with proper catering (I'm not counting a trolley) only on a handful of Intercity routes, special services and sleeper services. Most catering has essentially been outsourced to station outlets and the actual railway provision is dwindling and inconsistent. I have no doubt that todays offerings such as Pullman Dining, the Welsh Premier Service or EMR's breakfast trains (do they still exist?) are the pinnacle of British Railway catering in terms of quality, however the limited numbers served hardly make them relevant in the context of a national network- I suspect most rail travellers are unaware they exist.
 

Merseyrailfan

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How many (and which) lines did Barbara Castle actually reprieve? Had thought that she had mostly rubber-stamped the closure of lines already proposed for closure by the previous Conservative administration.
Lines reprived that I can remember are
  • Liverpool Exchange to Southport and Ormskirk electric services.
  • Looe to Liskeard
  • St Ives branch
  • Heart of Wales Line
  • Whitehaven to Barrow
  • Far North Line and any lines north of Inverness for that matter
  • Settle and Carlisle Line
  • Wrexham to Bidston Line
  • St Helens Central Line
  • Hope Valley Line
  • Buxton Line
  • skegness line
  • Ipswich to Lowestoft
  • Lowestoft to Great Yarmouth
  • Sherington and Yarmer Line
Only Few Lines actually had a closure notices put up though, Looe to Liskeard line was only saved 2 weeks before it intended closure.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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WRT BR catering, I remember when the mk4 sets first launched on the ECML, if my dad had been down to London with work he'd grab three giant chocolate chip cookies from the buffet car for my brothers and I. Might be a false memory but I think they came in a cellophane wrapper which had the Intercity "Swallow" logo printed on it.

Either way, it made us happy... simpler times, eh? :lol:
 

Western Lord

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Lines reprived that I can remember are
  • Liverpool Exchange to Southport and Ormskirk electric services.
  • Looe to Liskeard
  • St Ives branch
  • Heart of Wales Line
  • Whitehaven to Barrow
  • Far North Line and any lines north of Inverness for that matter
  • Settle and Carlisle Line
  • Wrexham to Bidston Line
  • St Helens Central Line
  • Hope Valley Line
  • Buxton Line
  • skegness line
  • Ipswich to Great Yarmouth
  • Sherington and Yarmer Line
Only Few Lines actually had a closure notices put up though, Looe to Liskeard line was only saved 2 weeks before it intended closure.
The reprieve of the Hope Valley line came at the expense of the Woodhead route and the Matlock-Chinley line. "Skegness line" is a bit of a misnomer, the branch line was reprieved but what it was attached to was much truncated. What is the "Ipswich to Great Yarmouth" line that was reprieved?
 

Merseyrailfan

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The reprieve of the Hope Valley line came at the expense of the Woodhead route and the Matlock-Chinley line. "Skegness line" is a bit of a misnomer, the branch line was reprieved but what it was attached to was much truncated. What is the "Ipswich to Great Yarmouth" line that was reprieved?
East Suffolk Line.
 

yorksrob

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The denigration of the "BR sandwich" is a pathetic standing joke , much used by stand-up comics in the past , and perpetuated as a cheap jibe by Grant Schapps relatively recently (surprised he did not get in the "wrong kind of snow" jibe as well.

HOWEVER - some truth across the whole UK about low standards of catering in all areas. Not just the railways

Post war expectations were for example , modelled on expectations of the silver screen of Ice Cream Parlours , burger joints and diners etc. It look a long time to recover after Austerity measures and the everage cafe used by most was the ultimate greasy spoon (resturaunts were better of course - but way below the standards of today in terms of choice etc). The UK had "British Resturaunts etc.

Anyway - BR catering was probably not very exciting in the 1970's ( white bread sandwiches with cheese , ham , ham and tomato - and not much else - packaged fruitless pies , crisps in grease proof bags) - "standard" dining cars doing soup , meat and 2 veg , solid puddings with custard or cheddar and crackers.

However - national catering was on the up - and come the Inter City 125 , a very noticeable transformation took place - significantly BR "invented" - the pre packed sandwich of various innovative fillings - (idea of Pru Leith) on train "fast food" like the 20p Express Burger with chips etc etc. BR smartened up station catering , memorable with the Bistro concept (Liverpool St being quite superb) - and so on.

The utter transformation of catering post war from a "desert" to today , took a long time - first in the High St , and later on to the railway. ......there are many books on this matter. It was not all great - and catering almost always lost money.


As certain journalists said - the delight of a prepared in front of you toasted Bacon sandwich on a cold day , served in a MK1 was pretty decent comfort food. (even if the staff were ever so slightly on the fiddle , prepping up on train food from their own resources)



i

Yes, I must admit, I'm sad I missed the days of the buffet cars on the South Eastern.
 

Mcr Warrior

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If pre-privatisation train companies are in scope, then surely the 'Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Light Railway' with its slow and unreliable trains from Shrewsbury Abbey to various backwater locations in the middle of nowhere, must be an all-time contender.
 

Merseyrailfan

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If pre-privatisation train companies are in scope, then surely the 'Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Light Railway' with its slow and unreliable trains from Shrewsbury Abbey to various backwater locations in the middle of nowhere, must be an all-time contender.
There are.
 

yorksrob

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Please, there is no direct line from Ipswich to Great Yarmouth (there used to be but it was closed).

The coastal route to Yarmouth South Town didn't close until 1970, which I think was after Ms Castle had left the post.
 

Bertie the bus

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Any discussion about the worst TOC needs to include consideration of its legacy and not just what happened when that company ran the franchise. As Operation Princess was an abject failure, the franchise was a total financial failure and most of the current problems on the route are caused by decisions made when they ran it I would say Virgin Cross Country was the worst ever TOC.
 

Dr Hoo

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The coastal route to Yarmouth South Town didn't close until 1970, which I think was after Ms Castle had left the post.
The death knell for the Yarmouth South Town had been rung in the ‘Network For Development’, jointly signed by Barbara Castle and the BR Chairman in March 1967.

(This fascinating map also showed the Oxford-Cambridge, Matlock-Chinley, Okehampton-Bere Alston, Whitehaven-Barrow, Hull-Scarborough, Settle & Carlisle, Bentham Line, Central Wales, Mallaig, Kyle, Ashford-Hastings, Hurst Green-Lewes, Tunbridge Wells-Eridge, Newquay, Pwllheli, Pembroke Dock, Waverley, North Warwickshire, all lines through Spalding and various others for passenger withdrawal if not total abandonment. “No major closures” in your manifesto. Yeah, right.)
 

ChiefPlanner

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An interesting post. What was the fayre at buffet stations, such as Normanton where trains would stop specifically do you know?

However, aren't we back at 'desert' status today, with proper catering (I'm not counting a trolley) only on a handful of Intercity routes, special services and sleeper services. Most catering has essentially been outsourced to station outlets and the actual railway provision is dwindling and inconsistent. I have no doubt that todays offerings such as Pullman Dining, the Welsh Premier Service or EMR's breakfast trains (do they still exist?) are the pinnacle of British Railway catering in terms of quality, however the limited numbers served hardly make them relevant in the context of a national network- I suspect most rail travellers are unaware they exist.

I think Normanton as a "food stop" ceased about 1880 after the introduction of dining cars on the Midland Railway (post Pullman) - which to be fair the MR did very well - the slow route to Scotland , but a very comfortable one.

The decimation of "proper" resturaunt cars - especially the loss of the Anglia ones is a great shame. Catering of that standard has always been a loss leader , but the breakfast service was always the real draw for the days when a day's business and the pre-meeting discussion was started over a "full English" - anecdotally . many important business deals were done in a MK3 coach from Leeds , Birmingham etc.

You would expect me to support BR catering in it's better days , but as a long haired student I was often welcomed on a London bound "TRUK" for a proper lunch and later in a suit on many other "diners". The high spot had to be the comprehensive range of Inter City trains. that the I/C profit centre classed as "Pullman" - especially the West Coast ones which did a magnificent afternoon tea , and even superlative Roast Beef with all the trimmings with kitchen prepared Yorkshire Pudding. Perhaps , Schapps never had this splendid treat maybe

Station catering could be so much better than the monopolised , high cost offerings (but then look at Airports) - there are some great opportunities if only the figures could be balanced to get something as good as many Continental stations offer - (below say the splendour of Le Train Bleu in Paris) - when what was once a fine buffet / resturaunt at Temple Meads building wise - offers basic fare with many signs (admittedly pre- Covid) , implored you to "get your cans for the train here" .......

BR could get it right , but it took a while to get it so. Admittedly there were some bad ones - a friend referred to the MK1 buffet with poor lighting , overwhelming seating and limited choice circa 1974 as "The Crippen Car" (Google it youngsters) , and whoever came up with bright orange plastic buffet bucket seats in a MK1 careering up the not great track on the WCML , with the rough riding that entailed.?

WRT BR catering, I remember when the mk4 sets first launched on the ECML, if my dad had been down to London with work he'd grab three giant chocolate chip cookies from the buffet car for my brothers and I. Might be a false memory but I think they came in a cellophane wrapper which had the Intercity "Swallow" logo printed on it.

Either way, it made us happy... simpler times, eh? :lol:

The sort of treat that you never really forget. Like Paynes Poppets as a London Underground treat when up there in that big city. (Mint ones from choice)

One hilarious innovation from BR was a machine affixed to the outside of Swansea Station that proferred to serve "hot , cooked chips" - very much a 7 Day Wonder - the wonder of all (circa 1967 - however a visit to see this wonderful 1960's technological gem was stymied as there was a blackened square on the rather nice Portland stone , where the combination of hot cooking oil (lard ?) and probably a vigerous clientel caused said machine to burn itself out.
 
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yorksrob

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One hilarious innovation from BR was a machine affixed to the outside of Swansea Station that proferred to serve "hot , cooked chips" - very much a 7 Day Wonder - the wonder of all (circa 1967 - however a visit to see this wonderful 1960's technological gem was stymied as there was a blackened square on the rather nice Portland stone , where the combination of hot cooking oil (lard ?) and probably a vigerous clientel caused said machine to burn itself out.

I guess that's what a former PM was referring to as "the white heat of technology" !
 

SouthEastBuses

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Worst railway company? I would have to say, Southern and Thameslink.

Since they became part of GTR in 2015, service has gone massively downhill with delays and cancellations being far too frequent (this was extremely rare before 2015). Situation seems to have been slightly improved at the moment though.
 

Irascible

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Worst railway company? I would have to say, Southern and Thameslink.

Worst company *ever*, though? compare to some of the 1840s mania companies? the West London Railway Company has to be in the running...

--

I can't remember BR catering from the 70s - my parents always took their own food anyway - but toasted bacon sandwiches on HSTs in later years is a pretty fond memory.
 

yorksrob

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It does make one chuckle to think of the ribbing that BR got.

Nothing compared to the abysmal state of affairs today.
 

PGAT

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Worst railway company? I would have to say, Southern and Thameslink.

Since they became part of GTR in 2015, service has gone massively downhill with delays and cancellations being far too frequent (this was extremely rare before 2015). Situation seems to have been slightly improved at the moment though.
Really, Southern and Thameslink are the worst? I know they are sometimes rough around the edges but every TOC has tough times. I've been travelling with GTR numerous times to Sutton and they are reliable in my experience.
 

SouthEastBuses

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Really, Southern and Thameslink are the worst? I know they are sometimes rough around the edges but every TOC has tough times. I've been travelling with GTR numerous times to Sutton and they are reliable in my experience.

From my experience and being a fairly regular user of them:

- SWR never cancel trains and run mostly on time
- GWR rarely cancel trains and, once again, run mostly on time
- CrossCountry are late most of the time but at least trains do run as normal
- The few times I've used Southeastern they were reliable
- Had one journey with TfW from Gloucester to Cheltenham Spa (on a 153 too!) and it was 5-6 mins late but ran as normal otherwise
- EMR tend to depart late but never cancel trains

Nothing like Southern and Thameslink with frequent delays and cancellations though. But I would suspect that from what I've heard, Avanti West Coast, Northern and Transpennine Express are much worse than GTR.
 

bramling

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Really, Southern and Thameslink are the worst? I know they are sometimes rough around the edges but every TOC has tough times. I've been travelling with GTR numerous times to Sutton and they are reliable in my experience.

As ever, GTR is a complex character. They’ve certainly had their issues over the years, but it’s difficult to separate out what’s down to GTR versus what’s down to the DFT, and in some cases the Thameslink Programme in particular, not forgetting of course issues left by the First Capital Connect franchise.

This is especially the case with GTR always having been a management contract, so the DFT’s influence has never been too far away.

What certainly did seem to be a specific problem with GTR in the lead-up to May 2018 was not recognising that it had a problem, almost shades of Crossrail there. Charles Horton seems to have been associated with problems everywhere he’s been.
 
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LowLevel

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I would take issue with East Midlands Trains, at least until 2015.

They worked quite hard to deliver a consistent product that was not the heights of the sainted Midland Mainline (one of the easiest operations on the network, but still comparatively poorly performing until a few years in), but was however a big step up from the standard perception of Central Trains.

Things did feel progressive. There were positive initiatives like the red dot days to build patronage. The train cleaners had a stock of seat covers so replacing knackered ones wasn't a job for the maintenance depot, it could be done wherever. Every train was hoovered regularly, rather than just now and then.

I started there in 2012 and uniform standards were pretty rigorously enforced. If station staff weren't out and about routinely, questions would be asked. Brian Souter even used to turn up dressed in his usual casual attire and and note deficiencies to be addressed - down to things like seat reservation labels being chucked in on the wonk or upside down.

The cheap first class meals on trains were a lovely thing to have, the breakfasts were superb and staff were genuinely encouraged to be nice to passengers, I don't just mean standard not being horrible to them - you felt you could do little things that would matter to them without consequence, provided you made a note that you'd done it and why in case questions were asked later.

The board and senior management team was full of genuinely enthusiastic railway people (many of whom were also railway enthusiasts) who weren't afraid of trying new ideas and providing novel solutions to capacity issues - training the Regional Railways side traincrew up on HSTs and 222s to provide summer seaside specials, engineering specials and charter trains was a groundbreaking concept that made them far more flexible, especially the go anywhere HST fleet.

The rag tag fleet of local DMUs were all standardised with a decent quality refurbishment for the time and to this day aren't in bad condition, albeit far from excellent and tired. The 158 refurbishment I didn't like to be fair. Not enough luggage space and I've never been that keen on those seats.

It felt like things went downhill with the move from franchise to direct award in 2015. Innovation largely stopped and cost cutting was well in evidence. Local services were increased but without the fleet to support it and short forms and unit failures became very common.

I might be biased but I thought it was a mostly competent but unexciting train operator and I was generally happy to work there, industrial relations issues from time to time aside.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would MTL era Merseyrail be another contender. It was so bad it was called “Miseryrail”.

I think MTL was its nadir, but I do have issues with the present operation, too, in particular its approach to ticketing (e.g. not accepting Railcards on day tickets yet not having any Off Peaks, refusal of e-tickets) and staffing (grossly overstaffed but with people who largely don't bring much benefit, e.g. cheap security guards, yet penny pinching on capacity), plus its failure (alongside Network Rail) to maintain things like stations properly.

Its best time was probably when it was still under BR, it was a friendly little operation back then.

Not the worst, though, I think that'd be with TPE at the moment (they weren't great years ago either), though I think Avanti is poor (bar the excellent new seats) and Northern really could do better. XC I find dire, but it's largely funding related, all they need is more stock yet they aren't being allowed it despite 2 221s already sitting spare.

Out of the present lot I would say LNER far and above the best, but WMT really isn't bad now and have made some good decisions e.g. the new timetable (though train lengths need a little tweaking) and going to 2+2 on the 730 fleet.
 

WL113

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As for the best train company... That has got to be the sadly short lived Wrexham and Shropshire. Excellent customer service, the staff were all amazing. No wonder they got 99% in customer satisfaction surveys. Lovely comfortable Mk3 coaches, the refurbished ones then took it to an even higher level. Such a shame so much was stacked up against the company right from the start. OK the journey times were quite long but what a lovely operator they were. Sadly missed.
 

SussexSeagull

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Another vote for Connex South Central. The trains were awful and the 3 and 2 seaters were extremely uncomfortable for anyone larger than a ballerina.

As for GTR/Southen, I was actually travelling from Durrington to Peterborough the day the direct trains from Horsham to Peterborough went into regular service and I was quite excited to get on the first one that morning. It was actually in the timetable so late I was waiting by the door to get off and change trains at Gatwick Airport before having it was shown as cancelled. An absolute shower of an implementation of which there was no warning of problems was coming.

That said, once it got up and running I found it a good service if I wasn't in a rush and didn't fancy changing in London (although I did stop using it in early 2019 so a while back). Also the acceleration of commuting habits post lockdown must make planning difficult.
 
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