Are there any paper tickets which allows travelling via Willesden Junction between Hackney and Epsom?

[miklcct]

I'm planning to go from Brondesbury to Hackney off-peak, then to Epsom evening peak, and returning to Brondesbury off-peak. I have 26-30 Railcard. As it involves evening peak travel I am looking for a paper ticket which will end up cheaper than relying on the Oyster zone 1-9 cap.

However, the paper tickets between NE London and Epsom only have via London or via Surrey Quays, but not via Willesden Junction.

Are there any paper tickets which allows travel via Willesden Junction, such that I can use a combination of one return ticket and one single £1.05 Oyster fare to complete my journey?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The only one I can think of is the outboundary Travelcard, but starting at the far end you'd need a Boundary Zone 6 extension to Epsom to use it as the zone boundary is at Ewell West and Ewell East.

Not sure of any combinations or how they relate to the Oyster cap ( with a railcard the Travelcard would be £10.55; not sure about the BZ6 - Epsom bit ) - I'm sure someone will be able to give that detail shortly.

 

[miklcct]

The only one I can think of is the outboundary Travelcard, but starting at the far end you'd need a Boundary Zone 6 extension to Epsom to use it as the zone boundary is at Ewell West and Ewell East.

Not sure of any combinations or how they relate to the Oyster cap ( with a railcard the Travelcard would be £10.55; not sure about the BZ6 - Epsom bit ) - I'm sure someone will be able to give that detail shortly.

Your Travelcard price is wrong. A zone 1-9 Travelcard is £10.10 with a Railcard, compared to the Oyster cap at £9.30 (the same price as the zone 1-6 cap), which won't be hit if I just do these 3 single journeys:
Brondesbury - Hackney Central off-peak: £1.05
Hackney Central - Clapham Junction - Epsom peak: £5.50
Epsom - Brondesbury off-peak: £2.50
Total: £9.05 (but at this price I would rather cut through central London and hit the cap for the Hackney - Epsom journey)

By introducing a paper ticket there may be following combinations:
Hackney Central - Epsom via Surrey Quay return: £1.05 + £6.85 (paper) + £1.05 = £8.95
Hackney Central - Epsom via Surrey Quay single: £1.05 + £5.90 (paper) + £2.50 = £9.45
Brondesbury - Epsom via Kensington Olympia return: £1.05 + £1.80 + £6.85 (paper) = £9.70
Clapham Junction - Epsom return: £1.05 + £1.80 + £5.45 (paper) + £1.05 = £9.35
Clapham Junction - Epsom single: £1.05 + £1.80 + £4.15 (paper) + £2.50 = £9.50

The "via Kensington Olympia" route is only available from the furthest east at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury, while the "via Surrey Quays" route is available starting from Dalston Junction and eastwards.

So is it possible to beat the £8.95 total above (apart from using a TfL bus to go to Epsom or avoiding the evening peak)? If I can bring down the total to below £8 I am willing to take a much longer journey compared to going via Zone 1, Otherwise I'd rather just use Oyster and travel whatever the fastest route is, i.e. cutting through Central London between Hackney and Epsom, at the £9.30 cap.

 

[NSE]

Have you considered walking? Absolutely free of charge

 

[Haywain]

Your Travelcard price is wrong. A zone 1-9 Travelcard is £10.10 with a Railcard, compared to the Oyster cap at £9.30 (the same price as the zone 1-6 cap), which won't be hit if I just do these 3 single journeys:
Brondesbury - Hackney Central off-peak: £1.05
Hackney Central - Clapham Junction - Epsom peak: £5.50
Epsom - Brondesbury off-peak: £2.50
Total: £9.05 (but at this price I would rather cut through central London and hit the cap for the Hackney - Epsom journey)

By introducing a paper ticket there may be following combinations:
Hackney Central - Epsom via Surrey Quay return: £1.05 + £6.85 (paper) + £1.05 = £8.95
Hackney Central - Epsom via Surrey Quay single: £1.05 + £5.90 (paper) + £2.50 = £9.45
Brondesbury - Epsom via Kensington Olympia return: £1.05 + £1.80 + £6.85 (paper) = £9.70
Clapham Junction - Epsom return: £1.05 + £1.80 + £5.45 (paper) + £1.05 = £9.35
Clapham Junction - Epsom single: £1.05 + £1.80 + £4.15 (paper) + £2.50 = £9.50

The "via Kensington Olympia" route is only available from the furthest east at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury, while the "via Surrey Quays" route is available starting from Dalston Junction and eastwards.

So is it possible to beat the £8.95 total above (apart from using a TfL bus to go to Epsom or avoiding the evening peak)? If I can bring down the total to below £8 I am willing to take a much longer journey compared to going via Zone 1, Otherwise I'd rather just use Oyster and travel whatever the fastest route is, i.e. cutting through Central London between Hackney and Epsom, at the £9.30 cap.

I think you should consider putting a value on your time and figure out if the time you put into researching this and asking questions of the rest of us is worth the saving of, most likely, less than a pound.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Your Travelcard price is wrong. A zone 1-9 Travelcard is £10.10 with a Railcard.

Sorry, I should have made clear it's £10.55 for an outboundary one from Epsom with a railcard.

 

[miklcct]

I think you should consider putting a value on your time and figure out if the time you put into researching this and asking questions of the rest of us is worth the saving of, most likely, less than a pound.

My value of time in my calculation is £6 / hour on weekdays, and £4 / hour on weekends.

 

[Haywain]

My value of time in my calculation is £6 / hour on weekdays, and £4 / hour on weekends.

And you'll have spent more than 10 minutes on this, so making my point.

 

[miklcct]

And you'll have spent more than 10 minutes on this, so making my point.

So probably in the future I'll develop tools to find fares faster in order to save my time in finding best value fares.

 

[JamesT]

My value of time in my calculation is £6 / hour on weekdays, and £4 / hour on weekends.

That seems exceptionally cheap valuing of your time. Consider that the Minimum Wage for 23+ is £9.50 (will be rising to £10.42 in April).

 

[MikeWh]

Sorry, I should have made clear it's £10.55 for an outboundary one from Epsom with a railcard.

It's a bit of a mess, but a zone 1-9 travelcard is totally valid at Epsom. The reason they don't publicise it is that the 7-day version is much more expensive than the Epsom to zone 1-6 one.

 

[miklcct]

That seems exceptionally cheap valuing of your time. Consider that the Minimum Wage for 23+ is £9.50 (will be rising to £10.42 in April).

When I built my initial version of spreadsheet about a decade ago, when I was in uni, my valuation was about £1.50 / hour. The value is derived from decisions that, if there are two services which can both bring me to the same destination but with different fares, appearing at the same time, which one I will take.

At the current valuation, it means that if there are two services, one charge £6 more than the other, appearing at the same time both going to my destination, I'll take the more expensive one if it is at least an hour faster than the other one.

 

[Hadders]

When I built my initial version of spreadsheet about a decade ago, when I was in uni, my valuation was about £1.50 / hour. The value is derived from decisions that, if there are two services which can both bring me to the same destination but with different fares, appearing at the same time, which one I will take.

At the current valuation, it means that if there are two services, one charge £6 more than the other, appearing at the same time both going to my destination, I'll take the more expensive one if it is at least an hour faster than the other one.

You must have too much time on your hands!

To be honest this amount of analysis for such a small saving is ridiculous.

 

[miklcct]

You must have too much time on your hands!

To be honest this amount of analysis for such a small saving is ridiculous.

Transport fares in the UK are very expensive and as a result I even bought a cheap second hand bike to get me between my home and the North London Line train station when I lived in Cricklewood where there are buses running every 2-3 minutes right from the front door of my home on a straight line to the train station entrance, and the cost of the bike was recovered by the saving in just a few months at £3 fare saving every day by cycling 3.4 km in total out and back!

If there was proper integration of fares, I wouldn't have bought the bike at all. (note: Cricklewood is the place in Borough of Barnet where the car dependence is the lowest)

So I'm looking for ways to squeeze every penny off from my fare even if means going out of the direct way, unlike in Hong Kong where the fares are usually cheap enough that few people are going to wait for the cheapest route while letting the other routes go, apart from a few extreme cases (e.g. HK$45 luxury premium airport bus v.s. HK$8 regular bus for an urban journey).

 

[MikeWh]

You must have too much time on your hands!

To be honest this amount of analysis for such a small saving is ridiculous.

As an autistic person who is short of money I can understand why someone would want to spend time researching the cheapest way to go. I'd politely suggest that if @miklcct wants to do so then that's his business. If he wants to ask here for help then that is fine, and if people are prepared to offer assistance then all the better. No-one is forced to read threads, let alone reply to them, so if people aren't interested just move onto the next thread.

Your Travelcard price is wrong.

I'd also like to politely point out that that response was a little abrupt, maybe even rude. It was a misunderstanding bought on by the clandestine manner in which Southern and SWR try to hide the fact that Epsom is in zone 9.

 

[miklcct]

I'd also like to politely point out that that response was a little abrupt, maybe even rude. It was a misunderstanding bought on by the clandestine manner in which Southern and SWR try to hide the fact that Epsom is in zone 9.

Honestly I have never seen a £10.55 fare when searching various Travelcard combinations until it has been clarified that it's the price of an outboundary Travelcard from Epsom, which is irrelevant to this thread (such Travelcards can't be used for a journey out then into London).

So here is this £10.55 Travelcard basically a rip off because one can always buy a proper zone 1-9 Travelcard cheaper and with greater validity? Are there any circumstances where one has to buy the former instead of a zone 1-9 Travelcard?

 

[MikeWh]

Honestly I have never seen a £10.55 fare when searching various Travelcard combinations until it has been clarified that it's the price of an outboundary Travelcard from Epsom, which is irrelevant to this thread (such Travelcards can't be used for a journey out then into London).

So here is this £10.55 Travelcard basically a rip off because one can always buy a proper zone 1-9 Travelcard cheaper and with greater validity? Are there any circumstances where one has to buy the former instead of a zone 1-9 Travelcard?

This was all bought about by governments decision to bring PAYG fares to Epsom. It had to be put in a zone and the best fit was 9. It wasn't that good a fit though.

Weekly Epsom to zones 1-6: £79.70 (or £74.50 if you restrict yourself to Southern services via Ewell East first).
Weekly zones 1-9: £100.20
Anytime Epsom to zones 1-6: £23.80
Anytime zones 1-9: £20.00
Off-peak Epsom to zones 1-6: £16.00
Off-peak zones 1-9: £14.10

Obviously season tickets account for most of the value of travelcards sold so they had to ensure that people bought the right ones.

 

[M-Train]

Would it not do for OP to simply get the 418 from Tolworth or some other suitable location in Z5/6, thus avoiding the special fares at Epsom?

 

[MikeWh]

Would it not do for OP to simply get the 418 from Tolworth or some other suitable location in Z5/6, thus avoiding the special fares at Epsom?

The OP says no.

So is it possible to beat the £8.95 total above (apart from using a TfL bus to go to Epsom or avoiding the evening peak)?

 

[M-Train]

The OP says no.

Considering that, even outside this site, OP shoehorns into the UK context that same understanding of public transport which works wonders for a city state but much less so here (I’ve had to see it a few times on FB now—we’re from the same place originally), it was hard to resist the urge to simply apply a bit of hard-nosed sensibility on this one…btw I picked TOL as it is Z5 instead of Z6 without being very far from Epsom.

So is it possible to beat the £8.95 total above (apart from using a TfL bus to go to Epsom or avoiding the evening peak)?

Is it such a difference for one to wait at a station bus stop provided by TfL, as opposed to the platforms? OP already knows as well as I do that over here, there are just not the PSD’s we grew up with; is there much of a difference in comfort? Even if the via TOL option takes longer…by the time valuation given, the fare saving remains worthwhile.

 

[Starmill]

When I built my initial version of spreadsheet about a decade ago, when I was in uni, my valuation was about £1.50 / hour. The value is derived from decisions that, if there are two services which can both bring me to the same destination but with different fares, appearing at the same time, which one I will take.

At the current valuation, it means that if there are two services, one charge £6 more than the other, appearing at the same time both going to my destination, I'll take the more expensive one if it is at least an hour faster than the other one.

Wouldn't it be cheaper for you to spend zero time on public transport analysis and simply cycle all the way? If your time is priced so lowly, I'm amazed it's ever cheaper for you to pay for public transport for journeys this short? A bike is very inexpensive indeed to own and operate.

 

[M-Train]

Wouldn't it be cheaper for you to spend zero time on public transport analysis and simply cycle all the way?

In fairness to that idea, I can recall on Reddit someone mentioning their daily commute on bike from deepest SW 455 land into the City, and saving thousands annually…though I would suppose OP doesn’t live anywhere near. (Not knowing the geography of the inner MML much, would such an approach actually be practical for him?)

 

[Starmill]

Honestly I have never seen a £10.55 fare when searching various Travelcard combinations until it has been clarified that it's the price of an outboundary Travelcard from Epsom, which is irrelevant to this thread (such Travelcards can't be used for a journey out then into London).

I'm not sure it's "irrelevant", because you could be taking a bike on the train and cycling one way between Ewell East or Ewell West and Epsom. Obviously you could do that with pay as you go too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

In fairness to that idea, I can recall on Reddit someone mentioning their daily commute on bike from deepest SW 455 land into the City, and saving thousands annually…though I would suppose OP doesn’t live anywhere near. (Not knowing the geography of the inner MML much, would such an approach actually be practical for him?)

In terms of time alone, it's likely to be practical to cycle because the OP already has a bike and it's approximately 20 miles to ride, which can be cycled in just a little longer than the train journey. Obviously there are an enormous number of other reasons why cycling might not be attractive, but it's not clear how those reasons would dovetail with the OP's perception of value for money and the value of their own time.

 

[M-Train]

In terms of time alone,

Well…TIL! I was thinking more of any hills though, and northern Z2-3 isn’t exactly devoid of those.

 

[Starmill]

Considering that, even outside this site, OP shoehorns into the UK context that same understanding of public transport which works wonders for a city state but much less so here (I’ve had to see it a few times on FB now—we’re from the same place originally), it was hard to resist the urge to simply apply a bit of hard-nosed sensibility on this one…btw I picked TOL as it is Z5 instead of Z6 without being very far from Epsom.

Indeed. People have politely pointed out to the OP on many, many occasions that while we're all willing to extend the hands of welcome to them as a member of the British and English community, they do need to have a good hard think, for their own sake an nobody else's, if living in a place which is so very different from Hong Kong is truly right for them. Obviously, we can all do our best to advise them on the reality of life in Britain today, and we can all give our own takes on how a more careful consideration of their ideas would have much merit here, but at the end of the day, for now at least, we have the country we have.

 

[M-Train]

Indeed. People have politely pointed out to the OP on many, many occasions that while we're all willing to extend the hands of welcome to them as a member of the British and English community, they do need to have a good hard think, for their own sake an nobody else's, if living in a place which is so very different from Hong Kong is truly right for them. Obviously, we can all do our best to advise them on the reality of life in Britain today, and we can all give our own takes on how a more careful consideration of their ideas would have much merit here, but at the end of the day, for now at least, we have the country we have.

OTOH he has lived here more than a year and it would seem that, in aspects unrelated to fares and travel, he isn’t particularly laughed at…I’m not sure how that works! But, all being said, I almost always do die a little inside whenever I see him say anything about the railways.

 

[Starmill]

Well…TIL! I was thinking more of any hills though, and northern Z2-3 isn’t exactly devoid of those.

An experienced and reasonably confident road cyclist would probably want to allow approximately two hours, and they could make good time and be there in a little less than that. The quality of the infrastructure is going to be very poor though, with almost all of the journey either in lanes shared with motor traffic or with cycle lanes simply painted and not physically separated. A large proportion of the journey will involve cycling on major routes where traffic is very heavy at nearly all times of the day. It isn't a journey I would ever give consideration to cycling, because of the near-constant interactions with motor traffic it would involve, as well as very frequent stops at red signals. However, other people are not me.

 

[M-Train]

Would an auxiliary motor be helpful, or are those heavily regulated in GB? (He probably wouldn’t have thought of it as the notoriously hidebound bureaucrats of the HK Transport Dept banned the things at the outset, without even so much as thinking of a registration system as exists in NI)

 

[miklcct]

Would it not do for OP to simply get the 418 from Tolworth or some other suitable location in Z5/6, thus avoiding the special fares at Epsom?

The zone 1-6 cap and the zone 1-9 cap are the same. As a result there is no saving made by bussing from zone 6.

Wouldn't it be cheaper for you to spend zero time on public transport analysis and simply cycle all the way? If your time is priced so lowly, I'm amazed it's ever cheaper for you to pay for public transport for journeys this short? A bike is very inexpensive indeed to own and operate.

Hackney to Epsom is not a short journey. Now I mostly cycle for journeys under 5 km instead of taking buses, unless there is a hill in between.

I'm not sure it's "irrelevant", because you could be taking a bike on the train and cycling one way between Ewell East or Ewell West and Epsom. Obviously you could do that with pay as you go too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

Bikes can't be taken on train on peak hour services from London.

In terms of time alone, it's likely to be practical to cycle because the OP already has a bike and it's approximately 20 miles to ride, which can be cycled in just a little longer than the train journey. Obviously there are an enormous number of other reasons why cycling might not be attractive, but it's not clear how those reasons would dovetail with the OP's perception of value for money and the value of their own time.

I consider distances within 10 km (not miles) practical to cycle, perhaps 20 km if I really can't find a good alternative, without hills. However, for a 20 km journey it can only be a one off - I can't sustain it day after day.

Indeed. People have politely pointed out to the OP on many, many occasions that while we're all willing to extend the hands of welcome to them as a member of the British and English community, they do need to have a good hard think, for their own sake an nobody else's, if living in a place which is so very different from Hong Kong is truly right for them. Obviously, we can all do our best to advise them on the reality of life in Britain today, and we can all give our own takes on how a more careful consideration of their ideas would have much merit here, but at the end of the day, for now at least, we have the country we have.

Hong Kong has most things modelled after London, as a British colony before 1997. My expectation of living in London is that I can have the exact same lifestyle, doing the exact same things I do in Hong Kong. We all use Common Law, drive on the left, use British sockets, speak English, etc. I am expecting an apple-to-apple comparison between Hong Kong and London. For example, I equate City of London to Central, Hong Kong; the Soho in West End to the Soho in Sheung Wan; Canary Wharf to Taikoo Shing; Croydon to Yuen Long, etc. Or London Underground to MTR; ex-British Rail to ex-KCR (the latter are modelled after the former and now much improved than the original British ones). Of course there are places and things without direct equivalent but I expect they are in a minority. Probably the only other place in the world with such a high level of similarity is Singapore.

 

[M-Train]

Bikes can't be taken on train on peak hour services from London.

Foldables perhaps?

As a result there is no saving made by bussing from zone 6.

I specifically chose Tolworth for being Z5.

Hong Kong has most things modelled after London, as a British colony before 1997.

So? The geography over here is totally different to that which we grew up with—I too wish it were possible to have proper express buses on TfL, but,
absent the Ringways, that was never going to happen.