Stopping at stations

[MaxB]

I have not carried out any very scientific analysis but it seems to me (on South Eastern at any rate) that trains now slow down much earlier and then creep into stations where they stop (SE also creep through other stations!).

In the "old days" of course the wheel was being constantly cleaned by the brake blocks which no longer happens. Is there a fear of over shooting or skidding?

When entering an Underground station the difference in approach speed is very noticeable: I appreciate sub surface conditions are more reliable but the same seems to apply even when above ground. And don't get me started on hanging about for the door release.....

 

[jfollows]

I am not a train driver; I have never worked on the railway.

The whole ethos, practice, training of train driving skills has radically changed since the old days. This has resulted in significant changes in behaviour which have developed over time. It may be sad no longer to rush into a station and screech to a halt, but it's considered unprofessional nowadays.

Couple this with technology - I have been in train cabs which didn't have speedometers, so even the drivers didn't know what speed they were doing other than through experience and training. Now everything is recorded and monitored and transgressions won't be overlooked.

It's a different world, and the new driving skills are different and definitely safer than the old ones. To some extent trains have to run faster between stops to make up time lost over earlier practice especially when stopping, but that's how it is. Things change.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

This would certainly happen where the rails are wet and slippery or where there is leaf mulch. Especially with the Salisbury collision still very much in people's minds

 

[Bald Rick]

I have not carried out any very scientific analysis but it seems to me (on South Eastern at any rate) that trains now slow down much earlier and then creep into stations where they stop (SE also creep through other stations!). In the "old days" of course the wheel was being constantly cleaned by the brake blocks which no longer happens. Is there a fear of over shooting or skidding? When entering an Underground station the difference in approach speed is very noticeable: I appreciate sub surface conditions are more reliable but the same seems to apply even when above ground. And don't get me started on hanging about for the door release.....

Yes, this is a network wide issue and there has been a gradual change over the past 20-25 years or so as driving policies have changed. This has had a fundamental effect on punctuality, and also journey times.

The difference is very noticeable in the Thameslink core between those trains that are driven manually and those by Automatic Train Operation.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes - it is a fundamental problem for the rail sector. Journey times on so many routes have increased significantly owing to increased dwell times for door release, etc., and conservative driving.

There are valid reasons for the latter, but it is hard to fathom just why door releases have to be so slow - it's only a few seconds each time but they add up and they produce at least slight concern among alighting passengers whose wait for the button to illuminate seems far longer than it really is.

Regarding conservative driving, without a means to clean the wheel treads to increase friction when braking, I can see no way to make progress on this. However, this should really only be a problem in autumn, and on occasions at other times in, say, drizzle after a long dry spell.

When I used to commute from Betchworth, trains would creep in ludicrously slowly (uphill!) from hundreds of yards out in the face of a red signal protecting the crossing, even in summer with excellent adhesion. It was painful to witness.

 

[MaxB]

Yes - it is a fundamental problem for the rail sector. Journey times on so many routes have increased significantly owing to increased dwell times for door release, etc., and conservative driving. There are valid reasons for the latter, but it is hard to fathom just why door releases have to be so slow - it's only a few seconds each time but they add up and they produce at least slight concern among alighting passengers whose wait for the button to illuminate seems far longer than it really is. Regarding conservative driving, without a means to clean the wheel treads to increase friction when braking, I can see no way to make progress on this. However, this should really only be a problem in autumn, and on occasions at other times in, say, drizzle after a long dry spell.

Strangely I used to notice the long wait to alight on Southern trains compared with South Eastern. Now the situation seems to have reversed.

 

[Deepgreen]

Strangely I used to notice the long wait to alight on Southern trains compared with South Eastern. Now the situation seems to have reversed.

I find SWR one of the worst - the 450/444 family is dire.

I remember the 'halycon' days of the 70s when slam door stock gave amazingly swift dwell times by today's standards (sometimes it seemed as if the train barely stopped!), and even the underground (especially the District line's CO/CP and R stocks) would often see doors released and flying open before coming to a halt.

The driver would drop the anchors and there was the sound of the brakes' air line spluttering as it emptied in emergency mode. Happy days, but with inherent dangers (although, because passengers knew what they were doing, accidents were amazingly rare). It was, however, a source a danger that could be eliminated, and it was.

The universal use of brake blocks also meant that sliding when braking was rare, although slipping under power was common (and manually-controlled, or not!).

 

[D365]

And don't get me started on hanging about for the door release.....

The virtue of guard-operated door controls.

 

[AlexNL]

The virtue of guard-operated door controls.

Doesn't have to be. WMR are guarded throughout but stops on the Cross-City Line, with a guard fully controlling the doors, don't even have to last 30 seconds.

 

[Meerkat]

It's the modern plague of "safer" being accepted as a reason without asking 'how much safer' and 'what are the costs and impacts?', leading to an ever increasing drift to disproportionate costs for very small increases in safety.
With the fear of lawyers meaning no one wants to be the one named when the safety expert says 'I suggested they should do X but the director said it was too expensive'

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I find SWR one of the worst - the 450/444 family is dire.

Defensive driving is the phrase. But also things like WSP (wheel slip protection).

On an occasion many years ago of an authorised cab ride on the Alton road with a DM driving, the wheels picked up momentarily on approach to the PSR just before the site of Farnham Junction, and although full control was regained within a split second, the WSP still had to go through its time out phase, so for what felt like ages, power could not be taken again.

As said up thread, today's world is a completely different ball game to that which some of us knew well.

 

[XAM2175]

Journey times on so many routes have increased significantly owing to increased dwell times for door release, ...

The virtue of guard-operated door controls.

Doesn't have to be. WMR are guarded throughout but stops on the Cross-City Line, with a guard fully controlling the doors, don't even have to last 30 seconds.

Yes. I know this is a touchy topic here because it can veer into DOO, but some of the exhaustively-choreographed routines TOCs demand of guards before they release the doors really are a bit excessive, and especially so on metro- or suburban-style services. And I say this as somebody who usually has no time at all for the "'elf and safety gone mad" polemics - because while I do agree that a certain level of regulation and precaution is necessary, I feel that there are certain areas in which the railways in Britain are well into chasing ever-diminishing returns.

Even if we could just have passenger preselection of doors (ie, press the button as the train is coming to a stand and the door will open as soon as the driver or guard gives the release) it would be a start, because it's readily accepted in much of Europe.

 

[physics34]

Stations with red signals or buffer stops at the end you will find drivers being extra cautious because of the TPWS, especially during leaffall season. New drivers are taught to be slow with releasing doors

 

[jfollows]

Yes. I know this is a touchy topic here because it can veer into DOO, but some of the exhaustively-choreographed routines TOCs demand of guards before they release the doors really are a bit excessive, and especially so on metro- or suburban-style services.

Northern definitely here.
Guard makes way through train having been delayed checking and selling tickets onboard.
Guard takes time if the train is busy for obvious reasons.
Guard exits the rear cab door onto the platform.
Guard performs appropriate routine to check.
Guard gets back into rear cab.
Guard releases the doors.
Passengers don't notice immediately because they've given up in frustration at this point.
Passengers are eventually allowed to open the doors.
It can sometimes take a minute or more.
Then repeat at the next station three minutes later.

 

[D6130]

As said up thread, todays world is a completely different ball game to that which some of us knew well.

Yes indeed it is. I - and no doubt you - remember the halcyon days of crowded peak hour 8-SUB formations screeching into stations on a single application of the Westinghouse brake and coming to a crunching stop at exactly the right place at the platform end!

 

[Deepgreen]

Defensive driving is the phrase. But also things like WSP (wheel slip protection). On an occasion many years ago of an authorised cab ride on the Alton road with a DM driving, the wheels picked up momentarily on approach to the PSR just before the site of Farnham Junction, and although full control was regained within a split second, the WSP still had to go through its time out phase, so for what felt like ages, power could not be taken again. As said up thread, todays world is a completely different ball game to that which some of us knew well.

My SWR reference was to door release times not defensive driving.

Stations with red signals or buffer stops at the end you will find drivers being extra cautious because of the TPWS, especially during leaffall season. New drivers are taught to be slow with releasing doors

Why?

 

[Meerkat]

Why?

Because it’s SAFER….oh my god you want people to DIE!
No, you may not ask how much safer, nor whether it makes enough of a difference to be worth the cost.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Yes indeed it is. I - and no doubt you - remember the halcyon days of crowded peak hour 8-SUB

Ah yes. On one occasion that I will always remember (date and time of day I do not) I was in a rush so boarded my train and sat up behind the leading van bulkhead (8 EPB), and was well prepared to make a speedy exit with a hand held on the outside handle, in readiness to open, although I never flung doors wide open, that was a no-no as far as I was concerned, but as we came to a lurching stop, opened door and stepped out, only to see a driver leaping from van ahead of me and beating me to the barrier line - on seeing this I glanced at the cab on passing only to see it was empty.....

My SWR reference was to door release times not defensive driving.

Apologies. But overall it is easy to see how a combination of things has led to slower overall journey times of late.

 

[Deepgreen]

Because it’s SAFER….oh my god you want people to DIE!
No, you may not ask how much safer, nor whether it makes enough of a difference to be worth the cost.

I don't see how being deliberately slow to release the doors is at all safer; in fact, making people impatient and/or panicky that they won't open is probably less safe overall.

 

[Meerkat]

I don't see how being deliberately slow to release the doors is at all safer; in fact, making people impatient and/or panicky that they won't open is probably less safe overall.

I believe the idea is that if the driver does it slowly they do it right.
Seems a bit patronising to the drivers to me.

 

[physics34]

I believe the idea is that if the driver does it slowly they do it right.
Seems a bit patronising to the drivers to me.

It is to a point, but it also helps prevent wrong side door releases and releasing doors after stopping short..... thats their thinking anyway.

 

[Meerkat]

It is to a point, but it also helps prevent wrong side door releases and releasing doors after stopping short..... thats their thinking anyway.

Well yes, that’s what I mean.
sure someone here said that drivers were being called out for it by managers if the recordings showed them opening doors really quickly???

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I believe the idea is that if the driver does it slowly they do it right.
Seems a bit patronising to the drivers to me.

Never having been a driver I can only make comment from the side lines; but if a driver has the relevant route and traction knowledge and is deemed competent in every respect, if they are working a route where they open the doors, there should, assuming nothing at the station being approached seems out of the ordinary/untoward, and they stop at the correct STOP mark, why can't the doors be released within a few seconds? Unless, like the WSP issue I mentioned earlier, there are technical on board issues that are (in part) delaying door release?

May be something for one of todays driver's to comment on?

Or is it as many may suspect a simple case of the industry being over protective of its own back side. Sure everyone has their ideas on subject!

Did see a TV programme a few years ago about Japan's Bullitt train, and noticed drivers thereof, before making certain (in cab) moves, go through a (particularly Japanese perhaps - no offence meant) procedure of 'talking' themselves through their actions before actually making the moves required (in cab actions this is). Couldn't see such ideas meeting with acceptance on UK network though....

 

[dk1]

Well yes, that’s what I mean.
sure someone here said that drivers were being called out for it by managers if the recordings showed them opening doors really quickly???

Yes we get that. Constantly drilled in to ‘pause for doors’ for which they like to see at least two seconds.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Yes, this is a network wide issue and there has been a gradual change over the past 20-25 years or so as driving policies have changed. This has had a fundamental effect on punctuality, and also journey times.

This has been for years particularly noticeable during the Leaf Fall season of course, when (on my patch if not others) re-timings of 2-3 minutes from point of origin (a.m) to ensure the peak Terminal workings stood a chance, and arrival at destination (p.m) were the order of the day.

It was well recognised that these measures were insufficient in reality in a small number of instances, but to go there from a TT plan point of view would mean quite drastic recasting of parts of the timetable (for a short period each year) and as the whole TT was one big knitting game, any such changes could get completely out of hand whereby additional (peak time) resources would be needed, both stock and crews. Just not possible for only three months of any given financial year, both financially and logistically.

I mention the above, as the problems mentioned in this thread are (potentially) taking the industry (journey times etc) in relation to planning and resourcing in a similar direction, and it may be that this is how the railway will be planned going forward, and people (passengers) have to get use to a slower journey experience?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Did see a TV programme a few years ago about Japan's Bullitt train, and noticed drivers thereof, before making certain (in cab) moves, go through a (particularly Japanese perhaps - no offence meant) procedure of 'talking' themselves through their actions before actually making the moves required (in cab actions this is). Couldn't see such ideas meeting with acceptance on UK network though....

On the contrary - Northern, at least, has made a big thing recently about conductors and drivers using Japanese-style 'pointing and talking' (shisa kanko, I believe it's called).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Constantly drilled in to ‘pause for doors’ for which they like to see at least two seconds.

One possible 'assist' of course could be to place all STOP marks as far toward the 'forward' end of all platforms as possible. But that suggestion will meet with a howl of complaints I'm sure due to station exit positions various and numerous , especially when running with a 2 car unit !

 

[dk1]

One possible 'assist' of course could be to place all STOP marks as far toward the 'forward' end of all platforms as possible. But that suggestion will meet with a howl of complaints I'm sure due to station exit positions various and numerous , especially when running with a 2 car unit !

Yes that wouldn’t prove popular but if it helps with safety then people will soon get used to it & realise moaning doesn’t get them anywhere as it won’t then change back. Difficult call either way so who knows?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

On the contrary

I stand corrected...! Been retired too long so don't get to hear about such initiatives. One former colleague is a driver with Northern (was last I heard a while ago anyway!). I can understand its merits, but (as above) wondered if it would meet universal approval........new world, so I'm probably not the best person to ask..

 

[Meerkat]

One possible 'assist' of course could be to place all STOP marks as far toward the 'forward' end of all platforms as possible. But that suggestion will meet with a howl of complaints I'm sure due to station exit positions various and numerous , especially when running with a 2 car unit !

Isn't the mitigation for that to have a big flip chart in the cab that the driver flips to the current train length as a reminder to compare to the stop signs?

Yes that wouldn’t prove popular but if it helps with safety then people will soon get used to it & realise moaning doesn’t get them anywhere as it won’t then change back. Difficult call either way so who knows?

Doesn't seem wise to replace trusting a well paid, well trained, professional driver to do their job right with passengers running down long platforms to catch the doors....