Stopping at stations

[dk1]

Isn't the mitigation for that to have a big flip chart in the cab that the driver flips to the current train length as a reminder to compare to the stop signs?

Doesn't seem wise to replace trusting a well paid, well trained, professional driver to do their job right with passengers running down long platforms to catch the doors....

It’s never stopped them before.

I remember some TOCs having flips for that. These days DAS gives us all that info.

 

[bramling]

Yes that wouldn’t prove popular but if it helps with safety then people will soon get used to it & realise moaning doesn’t get them anywhere as it won’t then change back.

The difficulty here is that this can often result in replacing one problem with another. It's undesirable to have situations where the train stops away from the entrance, as you'll get issues with people running along the platform. If people are having to chase the back of the train then this could also increase the possibility of a trap & drag incident occurring. Really the industry should be looking for an engineered safeguard for stop shorts.

 

[12LDA28C]

One possible 'assist' of course could be to place all STOP marks as far toward the 'forward' end of all platforms as possible. But that suggestion will meet with a howl of complaints I'm sure due to station exit positions various and numerous , especially when running with a 2 car unit !

And indeed that is exactly what has been done by various TOCs at many locations. This sort of thing is just another example of the railway 'dumbing down' to the lowest common denominator under the all-encompassing umbrella of 'risk mitigation'.

 

[Deepgreen]

One possible 'assist' of course could be to place all STOP marks as far toward the 'forward' end of all platforms as possible. But that suggestion will meet with a howl of complaints I'm sure due to station exit positions various and numerous , especially when running with a 2 car unit !

Will be counter-producrive if the walking time back to the exit outweighs the time saved by releasing the doors promptly! I suppose the point here really is that journey times can only continue to increase while humans are involved at any point in the process and more and more ways are found to increase safety even by the most minute of increments. The only consolation is that it will probably happen on the roads too.

 

[365 Networker]

I have not carried out any very scientific analysis but it seems to me (on South Eastern at any rate) that trains now slow down much earlier and then creep into stations where they stop (SE also creep through other stations!). In the "old days" of course the wheel was being constantly cleaned by the brake blocks which no longer happens. Is there a fear of over shooting or skidding?

I've certainly noticed this within the last five years, although there are a few drivers who still approach stations quite fast. Whilst I can understand some caution during autumn or on approach to a red signal, approaching a 12 car platform at 20mph, in the summer with a green signal is ridiculous. I can also pretty much guarantee that when a driver crawls through a platform, the brakes are slammed on right at the end stopping with a huge jerk. I've also noticed that there is rarely any effort made to make up time - a few years ago drivers would accelerate harder and brake later, but now most simply drive as normal.

 

[TurboMan]

I don't see how being deliberately slow to release the doors is at all safer; in fact, making people impatient and/or panicky that they won't open is probably less safe overall.

Because releasing doors on the left very quickly becomes an automatic action once the train comes to a stand, which can very often result in a wrong-side door release, or doors being released off the platform if the train has stopped short. So, many TOCs encourage drivers to use a strategy like STAR: Stop, Think, Assess, Release. It encourages thinking time, and checking that the train is at the correct stop mark and on which side the platform is located rather than just pouncing on the door release buttons as soon as the wheels stop turning.

 

[Deepgreen]

And indeed that is exactly what has been done by various TOCs at many locations. This sort of thing is just another example of the railway 'dumbing down' to the lowest common denominator under the all-encompassing umbrella of 'risk mitigation'.

Not just the railway either - it's a facet of all aspects of life where safeguards are added to protect the stupid. It's just the result of humans transitioning away from 'survival of the fittest' to 'survival of all' (and I'm not denigrating that per se, but it becomes extremely inefficient as a process).

 

[PGAT]

Was trying to get on a Southern train about an hour ago at Cheam. It came in and blew past the 5 car stop marker and the train had to dwell for an extra couple of minutes to allow all the passengers to run to the other half of the platform. I assume this is what other drivers are paranoid of

 

[Deepgreen]

Was trying to get on a Southern train about an hour ago at Cheam. It came in and blew past the 5 car stop marker and the train had to dwell for an extra couple of minutes to allow all the passengers to run to the other half of the platform. I assume this is what other drivers are paranoid of

That sounds more like a driver thinking he had 10 on and actually only having five. Being fully in the platform and at a stopping mark (even if the wrong one) shouldn't mean a delay in door releasing.

 

[PGAT]

That sounds more like a driver thinking he had 10 on and actually only having five. Being fully in the platform and at a stopping mark (even if the wrong one) shouldn't mean a delay in door releasing.

That’s probably the case but the train was definitely pulling in much faster than you would see normally

 

[12LDA28C]

That’s probably the case but the train was definitely pulling in much faster than you would see normally

Sometimes a driver can get distracted and miss their braking point leading to a later and heavier brake application, hence missing the 5-car stop marker. Not saying this is necessarily what happened but it's possible. At least the driver stopped with the whole train in the platform, result!

 

[dk1]

Sometimes a driver can get distracted and miss their braking point leading to a later and heavier brake application, hence missing the 5-car stop marker. Not saying this is necessarily what happened but it's possible. At least the driver stopped with the whole train in the platform, result!

The language in the cab was probably rather blue too haha. Hope those in the front seats couldn’t hear.

Seriously though it never really bothers me too much if I simply stop in the wrong position as long as it’s fully in & the platform is not being used in a permissive way.

 

[Deepgreen]

That’s probably the case but the train was definitely pulling in much faster than you would see normally

Yes, it would be if the driver thought he was going to far end of the platform (with a ten car train for example).

The language in the cab was probably rather blue too haha. Hope those in the front seats couldn’t hear.

Seriously though it never really bothers me too much if I simply stop in the wrong position as long as it’s fully in & the platform is not being used in a permissive way.

Sorry, but does that mean you don't pay much attention to stop markers for specific train lengths?

 

[dk1]

Sorry, but does that mean you don't pay much attention to stop markers for specific train lengths?

No not at all. I mean if I say stopped at a 8-car marker with a 4-car train id be annoyed with myself but wouldn’t report myself for it. As long as everyone gets on/off & im on time then no harm done in my book.

 

[Snow1964]

Tread brakes stock scrubbed the wheel treads, and was fairly strong at slow speeds, so easier to stop at precise location by car stop board (but pretty poor at stopping from higher speeds), and tend to be noisy.

Disc brakes are good for stopping from speed, but not as easy to precisely control below about 20mph.

Rheostatic / regeneration brakes are virtually useless when motor gets too slow (below about 10-15mph depending on gearing), so get blended out and replaced by friction brakes for low speed.

Logically would have the regenerative brake and tread brake as best combination for quick stops. But combination is not used as need disc brakes if no regeneration available. But discussing this is going off topic, so I will end here.

 

[12LDA28C]

Disc brakes are good for stopping from speed, but not as easy to precisely control below about 20mph.

Perfectly easy to control at low speeds, for an experienced driver.

Now vacuum brakes, they take some getting used to. You have to apply the brake well before you actually need it and release it well before you've reached your target speed or stopping point etc, especially on a long train. Certainly makes things more of a challenge though!

 

[skyhigh]

Sorry, but does that mean you don't pay much attention to stop markers for specific train lengths?

This might seem strange to an outsider, but where I work there aren't many stop markers, and a lot of the ones that are provided are in the wrong position so they are not so much ignored as deliberately disregarded. I can think of a stop marker that would mean a formation of that length would be hanging off the end of the platform for no reason, one where if you had to change ends and make a reversing move (which is common) you'd be right on top of a magnet and one where they've helpfully installed a bench that is right in the way of where the wheelchair ramp would need to go.

You just know by route knowledge where you stop (and yes they have been reported, multiple times over the years, and they still persist).

 

[dk1]

This might seem strange to an outsider, but where I work there aren't many stop markers, and a lot of the ones that are provided are in the wrong position so they are not so much ignored as deliberately disregarded. I can think of a stop marker that would mean a formation of that length would be hanging off the end of the platform for no reason, one where if you had to change ends and make a reversing move (which is common) you'd be right on top of a magnet and one where they've helpfully installed a bench that is right in the way of where the wheelchair ramp would need to go.

You just know by route knowledge where you stop (and yes they have been reported, multiple times over the years, and they still persist).

Yes ours were quite hit/miss with some that we knew to ignore as were wrong or awkward with often a forest of differing ones for different types. That all changed with total fleet renewal & now it’s all very structured everywhere.

 

[skyhigh]

Yes ours were quite hit/miss with some that we knew to ignore as were wrong or awkward with often a forest of differing ones for different types. That all changed with total fleet renewal & now it’s all very structured everywhere.

A lot of ours don't bother specifying the unit class, and there's a reasonable difference in the length of a 4 car 142 to a 4 car 158...

Not to mention there's at least 1 stop board specified for 333s that was placed when the units were in their original 3 car config, and was never moved when they were lengthened to 4 cars...

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Comments as follows;

These days DAS gives us all that info.

DAS was a new thing in the wings when I retired. In essence the consequences of the 10 car suburban plan on the SW network resulted in two (proposed) new main line outer sub services being 'squeezed' in to the TT (once inside of Hampton Court Jn), and DAS was to be an integral part of their introduction IIRC. But they/the initiative were dropped, so heard no more about it.

The difficulty here is that this can often result in replacing one problem with another.

Completely agree!

This sort of thing is just another example of the railway 'dumbing down' to the lowest common denominator under the all-encompassing umbrella of 'risk mitigation'.

Ditto !

Will be counter-producrive if the walking time back to the exit outweighs the time saved by releasing the doors promptly! I suppose the point here really is that journey times can only continue to increase while humans are involved at any point in the process and more and more ways are found to increase safety even by the most minute of increments.

Ditto !

I've also noticed that there is rarely any effort made to make up time - a few years ago drivers would accelerate harder and brake later, but now most simply drive as normal.

Probably largely due to the 'black box' element these days? Some years after retirement I travelled on a train on my old patch, and noticed within seconds of moving it was being driven in 'old school' mode (within the rules/speed limits and very safely I would add here) but to the point I even commented to my travelling companion (another ex workmate) that who ever was up front, could well be one of our old mates, xx! On reaching our destination, it came as (little) surprise that the chap who exited the cab was indeed the person we knew/know, well. A sign of the changing times we live in perhaps!

Because releasing doors on the left very quickly becomes an automatic action once the train comes to a stand, which can very often result in a wrong-side door release, or doors being released off the platform if the train has stopped short

There were a very small number of wrong side (releases), Ascot and Guildford being two locations where this was possible due to platform roads with platform faces on both sides, or stopped short (and release) on my patch, albeit all guarded trains, the the latter point aside, I have sometimes wondered if drivers side now have (perhaps) too many things to take account of and react to (in the overall umbrella of 'safety') that may be causing confusion, especially amongst newbie's to the role? I can not comment, other than in my day, other than keeping a foot on the floor treadle and cancelling/acknowledging the AWS, that was about it, so drivers could give concentration to signal aspects and the reality of prevailing conditions in relation to (particularly) braking distances. Dunno, just a few thoughts?

I could comment more, but you all get the drift of where I'm coming from I'm sure.

EDITED: I feel I should add that the events at Cannon Street, as mentioned elsewhere recently, were a turning point in safety related practises, and although I do not know myself the figures involved in (potential) accidents avoided since then as a result of more recent accident preventative measures being in place, there is (obviously) still discussion to be had as to how best to balance those issues with the need to move as many people as want to be moved at specific times of day that are convenient to them.
Covid has perhaps been a (convenient) gamechanger for the rail industry in putting the brakes on what was a steadily increasing passenger footfall, which was becoming unsustainable within some TOC areas. This will likely result, as is seemingly the case on the SW network, in a fresh look at the 'base' timetables that will apply going forward, with the old minimum legal headways being given (perhaps) a greater 'buffer zone' between trains (as opposed to the old phrase used by some that the assets should be 'sweated' to their max), to provide a more reliable train plan, but also allow for the more recent changes in driving techniques and dwell times/door operation.

 

[contrex]

Japan's Bullitt train

Driven by Steve McQueen?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Driven by Steve McQueen?

Not sure you'd get too many passengers in a 350 Mustang Fastback.....

 

[TurboMan]

I have sometimes wondered if drivers side now have (perhaps) too many things to take account of and react to (in the overall umbrella of 'safety') that may be causing confusion, especially amongst newbie's to the role? I can not comment, other than in my day, other than keeping a foot on the floor treadle and cancelling/acknowledging the AWS, that was about it, so drivers could give concentration to signal aspects and the reality of prevailing conditions in relation to (particularly) braking distances. Dunno, just a few thoughts?

It's more the opposite, such that underload is now recognised as a risk as much as overload. The problem is that driving can become very, very repetitive. Muscle memory develops, and actions can be carried out almost subconsciously as a response to a stimulus. Train stops...left hand door release...train stops...left hand door release...train stops...left hand door release etc. Then: train stops at a right hand platform...left hand door release. Or even: train stops at a red signal not at a station...left hand door release. Hence the use of things like STAR: stop, think about what you're doing, assess where the platform is, and only then release the doors.

It's the same reason AWS is not foolproof. Cancelling the AWS becomes a conditioned response to the warning horn, especially during underload, or when fatigued, or when the mind is elsewhere, such that although the warning is 'acknowledged', it isn't acknowledged by actually carrying out a meaningful action in response to the signal aspect etc. The Purley crash was an example of this.

 

[TreacleMiller]

It is to a point, but it also helps prevent wrong side door releases and releasing doors after stopping short..... thats their thinking anyway.

It's exactly to prevent wrong side door release which is EXTREMELY easy to do, especially if you have to check screens in some platforms to make sure you're on correctly or when checking SDO is going to work correctly.

I don't see how being deliberately slow to release the doors is at all safer; in fact, making people impatient and/or panicky that they won't open is probably less safe overall.

2/3 seconds to check makes all the difference. That's all it is. No one is going to start smashing windows so suggest it's less safe is a bit of a stretch at best.

 

[Bald Rick]

I should probably know this, but is the ‘pause for doors’ mentioned above specifically to reduce the probability of wrong side door release? If so, then CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable) on routes with lots of station stops might be a decent performance project. *puts thinking cap on*

For the drivers on the thread - if CSDE was in place, do you think you would then release the doors immediately?

 

[dk1]

I should probably know this, but is the ‘pause for doors’ mentioned above specifically to reduce the probability of wrong side door release? If so, then CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable) on routes with lots of station stops might be a decent performance project. *puts thinking cap on*

For the drivers on the thread - if CSDE was in place, do you think you would then release the doors immediately?

Absolutely. I did DOO with 170s between 2004-2011 & used to pride myself on getting release just before the train actually stopped. Pausing does my box in.

 

[bramling]

I should probably know this, but is the ‘pause for doors’ mentioned above specifically to reduce the probability of wrong side door release? If so, then CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable) on routes with lots of station stops might be a decent performance project. *puts thinking cap on*

For the drivers on the thread - if CSDE was in place, do you think you would then release the doors immediately?

On the latter, can’t see why not given that this is standard practice on LU - except on the CBTC/TBTC lines where the system doesn’t enable the release for a second or so. This is what happens when someone buys an off-the-shelf product not a bespoke one!

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks both. It will be interesting to compare wrong side door incidents before and after the pause for doors policy…

 

[Watershed]

I should probably know this, but is the ‘pause for doors’ mentioned above specifically to reduce the probability of wrong side door release? If so, then CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable) on routes with lots of station stops might be a decent performance project. *puts thinking cap on*

For the drivers on the thread - if CSDE was in place, do you think you would then release the doors immediately?

Frankly it's beyond time that CSDE and some form of ASDO is rolled out more widely. I'd struggle to see how it wouldn't pay for itself in terms of improved performance several times over - yet in some instances millions are spent on minor route upgrades to save 30 seconds or so!

 

[Efini92]

I should probably know this, but is the ‘pause for doors’ mentioned above specifically to reduce the probability of wrong side door release? If so, then CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable) on routes with lots of station stops might be a decent performance project. *puts thinking cap on*

For the drivers on the thread - if CSDE was in place, do you think you would then release the doors immediately?

I’d still pause. The problem with going straight for release, as said up thread, it becomes automatic. The risk then is not only attempting to release on the wrong side, but possibly attempting to release the doors when stopped at a signal.