Birmingham New Street Gates

[Scott1]

You reckon people would know that 2a is on platform 2 etc. I can guarantee you that is not the case with many people. I work trains into New Street, so see it first hand.

Yeh I can echo that, and it's the same at every station, I can't walk along a platform without someone asking if 2a is diffrent to 2 etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeh I can echo that, and it's the same at every station, I can't walk along a platform without someone asking if 2a is diffrent to 2 etc.

It's not helped by there being no consistency of how those terms are used. Sometimes 2A is a separate bay, sometimes it's a subdivision.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

This view shows the problem quite well: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.477...-topjCSg0hfsIfEAA-TGdgqdkJ!2e10!7i8364!8i4182

Notwithstanding the limited height, the 'Platform 2 and 3: Including 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b' is fundamentally wasteful sign design. The 'including A/b' stuff just isn't needed, people known that platform 2A will be on 2.
There's also no transverse signage for people as they turn from the escalators towards the ticket gates. It feels like every sign at New Street can only face one direction.

It's there because trains can come on Platform 2, 2A or 2B. Same with all platforms except 4 which also has 4C. It is needed as it's a commonly asked question.

 

[Tester]

Unfortunately, assuming platform 2A will be on 2 cannot be relied upon.

I present Stratford platforms 10 and 10A

 

[zwk500]

Unfortunately, assuming platform 2A will be on 2 cannot be relied upon.

I present Stratford platforms 10 and 10A

Fair point, but the only outlier at Birmingham is 4C, which is accessed from 4.

And Stratford should really get 10A renumbered, but that's a separate discussion

 

[Tester]

Fair point, but the only outlier at Birmingham is 4C, which is accessed from 4.

And Stratford should really get 10A renumbered, but that's a separate discussion

It's the same discussion because it's all part of why what you know and I know is not what Joe Public knows.

The railway is not good at dealing with that, and it needs to change.

 

[zwk500]

It's the same discussion because it's all part of why what you know and I know is not what Joe Public knows.

It's not really, because 10A is an exception that hinders clear understanding of the rule that Letters mean different parts of the same platform. And the discussion on this thread is about what the platform numbers are, not what they should be.

The railway is not good at dealing with that, and it needs to change.

I 100% agree on this.

 

[Falcon1200]

It's there because trains can come on Platform 2, 2A or 2B. Same with all platforms except 4 which also has 4C. It is needed as it's a commonly asked question.

Should long trains which occupy both A and B parts of the platform at New Street be advertised to the public as such, eg Platforms 2A & B rather than just 2? It does leave 4C as an exception to the rule, but short of renumbering every platform from 5 upwards that would be unavoidable.

 

[The Planner]

Should long trains which occupy both A and B parts of the platform at New Street be advertised to the public as such, eg Platforms 2A & B rather than just 2? It does leave 4C as an exception to the rule, but short of renumbering every platform from 5 upwards that would be unavoidable.

They already are.

 

[Bald Rick]

Stations where one has to exit the barriers to change trains cause major problems when holding certain types of tickets.

Maybe, for some passengers. Nevertheless, one does not have to exit the barriers at New St to change trains.

That was at the bottom of the Pallisades escalator. It went to a Burger King eventually. There was also a pub on the concourse too, where WHSmith eventually expanded, but I just cannot remember the name of it. I'm sure it had gone by the mid 80s if not even earlier.

IIRC the pub was imaginatively named “The Bridge”. It‘s aurora can be explained by the fact that the best beer on offer was keg Brew XI.

St Pancras is beautiful but it's not a particularly good station nor is it a particularly good shopping mall.

I think it is a good shopping mall - for a station. The shops usually seem busy, and the retail income numbers are astronomical, so it seems that lots of people do like it.

 

[Sprinter107]

Maybe, for some passengers. Nevertheless, one does not have to exit the barriers at New St to change trains.




IIRC the pub was imaginatively named “The Bridge”. It‘s aurora can be explained by the fact that the best beer on offer was keg Brew XI.





I think it is a good shopping mall - for a station. The retail income numbers are astronomical.

The Bridge Bar was on the dispersal bridge, but there was another one on the concourse. Sort of in the area that WHSmith went into when they enlarged their shop. A few of us at my depot sort of remember it, but none of us can remember what it was called. We think it may have had a red and yellow sign, but cant be sure.

 

[duncanp]

They already are.

Yes, I was at New Street on Saturday, and a train was advertised as leaving from "Platform 2", rather than Platform 2A or 2B, with the message underneath stating that "..this train leaves from the middle of the platform.."

 

[xotGD]

The primary purpose of the lower level, yes. But how do you suppose that is changed?

Because getting from one bit of the lower level to another bit is now more difficult, because some bright spark has put two sets of ticket barriers in the way.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Because getting from one bit of the lower level to another bit is now more difficult, because some bright spark has put two sets of ticket barriers in the way.

On just 1 of the 3 routes available. The other 2 walking routes have no such barriers.

Off the top of my head the only trains that solely use the A end are;
WMR Wolves - Walsall
WMR Cross City North (Four Oaks & Lichfield TV)
XC Stansted
XC Nottingham
TfW to Birmingham International

Plus potentially LNWR 4 car working to Northampton.

That's not very many services, and very few are non-locals. The vast majority use entire platform lengths therefore as long as the mandatory announcements regarding using the B end for connections are being made, there really isn't much of an issue.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Bridge Bar was on the dispersal bridge, but there was another one on the concourse. Sort of in the area that WHSmith went into when they enlarged their shop. A few of us at my depot sort of remember it, but none of us can remember what it was called. We think it may have had a red and yellow sign, but cant be sure.

I don’t remember that. Must have before 1990.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Bridge Bar was on the dispersal bridge, but there was another one on the concourse. Sort of in the area that WHSmith went into when they enlarged their shop. A few of us at my depot sort of remember it, but none of us can remember what it was called. We think it may have had a red and yellow sign, but cant be sure.

When the 1960s station was opened I am pretty sure that there were Travellers Fare outlets on the main concourse called the Taurus Bar and Toreador Restaurant (or vice versa). These had the standard red and yellow signage. In that original design iteration there were no refreshment facilities whatsoever 'inside' the manual ticket barriers apart from some vending machines. So any hungry or thirsty travellers changing trains had to negotiate the barrier twice to be satisfied.

How could this be? Surely 'Good Old British Rail' never forced its passengers to go through ticket barriers twice (especially at a station that was famous for never having had such things)?

(Reaching for smelling salts and hip flask as I make for cloakroom to get my coat....)

 

[BeijingDave]

It's not helped by there being no consistency of how those terms are used. Sometimes 2A is a separate bay, sometimes it's a subdivision.

I was also about to point this out.

 

[Sprinter107]

When the 1960s station was opened I am pretty sure that there were Travellers Fare outlets on the main concourse called the Taurus Bar and Toreador Restaurant (or vice versa). These had the standard red and yellow signage. In that original design iteration there were no refreshment facilities whatsoever 'inside' the manual ticket barriers apart from some vending machines. So any hungry or thirsty travellers changing trains had to negotiate the barrier twice to be satisfied.

How could this be? Surely 'Good Old British Rail' never forced its passengers to go through ticket barriers twice (especially at a station that was famous for never having had such things)?

(Reaching for smelling salts and hip flask as I make for cloakroom to get my coat....)

Yes !!! They're the ones. Thanks for that. None of us could remember the name. I knew i remembered the red and yellow signage.

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I don’t remember that. Must have before 1990.

Yes, it was definitely before 1990. I think it was about then that WHSmith expanded into, or near that space.

 

[the sniper]

£750m was spent on redeveloping the station and shopping centre. I'm unsure how Utrecht Centraal is any comparison it is on viaducts above the streets and river of Utrecht and is very open area not like the cutting\canyon\tunnels in which New Street sits (well at least on three sides).

In terms of the actual station building design, bridge layout and the way natural light can reach the platforms while still having a substantial station above. If the platforms weren't so entombed by the structure above, I don't think people would even consider New Street to be in a particularly deep cutting.

Whilst not 'unavoidable', they were never going to demolish prime retail space in the city centre. Especially as the 3rd shopping centre was already earmarked for turning into a single unit for Primark. Whilst a few units have come and gone, JLP was poorly executed rather than superfluous.

Wasn't the Pavilions over half empty in the last few years? As was the Pallasades? It seem to me that they and Birmingham City Centre have far more retail units that they need to actively try and keep filled than an over abundance of retailers seeking to fill them. With the move to online shopping being a recognised thing even back then, it seems to me that there wasn't a problem to be solved.

Also, the food court area is fantastic for both shoppers and travellers. And highly successful given there are more units there now than pre-covid, never mind since opening.

The John Lewis was but it's hardly an abandoned mall, there's plenty of stuff up there including an excellent food court. Those who moan about it should perhaps give it a go!

I think that could and should have been incorporated, but within a different, more airy design. The core food court would be better for being less compacted.

Because it's down a pit I doubt there was scope for it to be a more traditional station with a big concourse building on the side anyway, so it'd have been roughly as it is regardless of whether it had the shopping arcade on top or not.

As I say, I think the current station deceives people into feeling that New Street is in more of a pit than it actually is.

The main problem with platform level is DMUs. If we could just get everything to bi-mode, then close it for a couple of weeks to sandblast the ceilings and fit some uplighters, it'd be great. There are a number of such stations in Europe, they're not manky because they're not full of diesel fumes and uplighting the ceiling makes them seem lighter and more spacious.

You're right there. Belgrade's half baked version of New Street at least proves that.

 

[AlbertBeale]

You reckon people would know that 2a is on platform 2 etc. I can guarantee you that is not the case with many people. I work trains into New Street, so see it first hand.

I'm sure there are stations where platforms with numbers like 2A are not simply part of platform 2. And aren't there places where there's a 2A and a 2B but not a 2? And even where, eg, 2A and 2B are contiguous, there are situations where there's a different train on each platform.

So I'd think it reasonable for some people not to be aware that something like "2A" at Brum simply means a part of platform 2. Hence if someone has been told to go to platform 2A, or there's some indicator refering specifically to platform 2A, rather than to platform 2, then I'd say it does make sense to be explicit that platform 2A is part of platform 2 and not only put "2" on signs.

 

[railfan99]

I've just changed at Birmingham New Street; my first time there in years. Imagine my confusion when, on changing from platform 1 to 11, it appears I have to gate-out, then gate back in, all on the same concourse! Talk about absurd.

Having not been there for a few years and as a lowly colonial from Australia, in late 2022 I also found it a confusing layout. My transfer took longer than I thought it would. I did not observe a sign to the 'B' end: perhaps I need glasses.

The atmosphere on the platforms (or lack of it) was as bad as some of the platforms at Barcelona Sants in Spain. Uninspiring, not that Southern Cross in Melbourne Oz is much better.

IIRC however there was a good little Marks and Spencer food outlet at B New St from which I obtained a late afternoon excellent snack.

 

[zwk500]

I'm sure there are stations where platforms with numbers like 2A are not simply part of platform 2.

There definitely are, MKC (2A) and Sheffield (2C) being direct examples, with plenty of others around the network, not least at Birmingham NS (4C).

And aren't there places where there's a 2A and a 2B but not a 2?

I don't think so. That would have to have been quite a strange sequence of events to end up with an additional platform squeezed in and then the original platform closed.

And even where, eg, 2A and 2B are contiguous, there are situations where there's a different train on each platform.

This is where the signage could just say 'A End' at the top of the escalators though, and 'B End' at the red lounge. Would make it a lot tidier. 4C would need to remain separately signed.

 

[GoneSouth]

This has probably been posted on here elsewhere but it’s fascinating what work went into the redevelopment so I’m posting it again.

This shows a Timelapse of 5 years work:

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Amusingly, network rail made a video to help understand the confusing layout, I’ll leave you to decide if it succeeded

 

[Falcon1200]

They already are.

Yes, I was at New Street on Saturday, and a train was advertised as leaving from "Platform 2", rather than Platform 2A or 2B

These appear to be contradictory statements! So, is a long train, eg a Pendolino, advertised at New St as leaving from say Platform 2A and B, or just 2, without the suffixes? Despite having changed trains there more often than I care to recall, I cannot remember. The point I was making was that with the platforms being signed as 2A and 2B, advertising a train as just 2 could cause confusion, as per the examples above where some stations have separate platforms with the same number but with and without a suffix.

 

[The Planner]

These appear to be contradictory statements! So, is a long train, eg a Pendolino, advertised at New St as leaving from say Platform 2A and B, or just 2, without the suffixes? Despite having changed trains there more often than I care to recall, I cannot remember. The point I was making was that with the platforms being signed as 2A and 2B, advertising a train as just 2 could cause confusion, as per the examples above where some stations have separate platforms with the same number but with and without a suffix.

Just the number, no suffix. Shorter trains get a suffix.

 

[Falcon1200]

Just the number, no suffix. Shorter trains get a suffix.

Thanks, So, would quoting both suffixes for long trains help those unfamiliar with the station's layout?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

These appear to be contradictory statements! So, is a long train, eg a Pendolino, advertised at New St as leaving from say Platform 2A and B, or just 2, without the suffixes? Despite having changed trains there more often than I care to recall, I cannot remember. The point I was making was that with the platforms being signed as 2A and 2B, advertising a train as just 2 could cause confusion, as per the examples above where some stations have separate platforms with the same number but with and without a suffix.

New St is rather maddening when it comes to positioning on it's platforms such as;
4 car to Walsall goes south from A end
4 car to Rugeley via Walsall goes North from A or B end
6 car Cross City pulls to extreme end of platform (especially Northbound, A end) despite nothing behind it so could use centre of platform
8 car LNR pulled to far end (Liverpool to A end, Euston to B end) rather than centre but advertised as whole platform number.

Quite often passengers struggle to find their train as it's not where to necessarily expect it to be.

 

[SuspectUsual]

es !!! They're the ones. Thanks for that. None of us could remember the name. I knew i remembered the red and yellow signage.

In the 80s was there not also a basic Travellers Fare type cafe on the concourse that also had red (or maybe even red and yellow) signage? Called Quicksnack or something? Or was that on the bridge?

 

[The Planner]

Anyone lamenting the Shakespeare at the old New St must be off their heads. Was an awful place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I say, I think the current station deceives people into feeling that New Street is in more of a pit than it actually is.

The track is wholly below street level so a classic "concourse on the side and station with a big overall roof" design doesn't work, plus there's nowhere to put said concourse on the side (of a suitable size and with a decent retail offer) without demolishing half of Birmingham city centre. You would always have needed to have the concourse on top and so the platforms would be to some extent bridged over.

I suppose you could do something like Hamburg Hbf, with two retail-filled bridges, one at each end, with an open trainshed in the middle*, but I don't think that would be better, particularly not with a gateline meaning you couldn't cut through the platforms if the retail or exit you wanted was at the other end. (Remember the Bullring exit is by far the busiest and is the one that causes the need to split the A end - you can't realistically get rid of that).

I genuinely think they did the best they realistically could within the constraints of the site and not wanting to shut down half the country's rail network for 6 months to be able to start from scratch. Ban DMUs** from it, clean the ceiling and add uplighters and I think it'd be quite decent.

* Sort of imagine it as it is now, but instead of the concourse where it is you remove the atrium floor so that becomes a trainshed.

** I expect DMUs will be banned from cities at some point anyway; for things like the CAF units they'll need to fit last-mile battery hybrid tech like Chiltern were playing with, and Voyagers just need to go in the bin by then. London will undoubtedly be first but I doubt Brum and Manchester will be far behind.