Birmingham New Street Gates

[AlterEgo]

i dont get it - it is very easy to use. Yes the barrier lines are pain if you are at the wrong end but it is MILEs better than the station used to be.

You and I find it easy enough if we use it all the time but the design philosophy and layout is substantially different to any other large legacy station. The idea of customer lounges is very confusing to the average punter.

 

[DarloRich]

You and I find it easy enough if we use it all the time but the design philosophy and layout is substantially different to any other large legacy station. The idea of customer lounges is very confusing to the average punter.

I agree it is very different - I am not sure it is THAT confusing though. I dont discount what you say btw but I find THAT view confusing! Comapred to the old station it is miles better

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like the shops. I can have a wander between trains, get a sandwich and so forth. Pity the John Lewis closed.

Agreed. The excellent retail offering is one reason I like it (similarly with Manc Picc, and the lack of it is one reason I strongly dislike Manc Vic). If shops offend one's eyes, one need not go in them. It's not like one is forced to go through one like at airports.

Those calling for the old bridge to have been retained and widened, presumably you'd be OK with a tiny concourse or closing the super busy Bullring exit? As short of having a mezzanine level I can't think of any other sensible way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

You and I find it easy enough if we use it all the time but the design philosophy and layout is substantially different to any other large legacy station. The idea of customer lounges is very confusing to the average punter.

If that aspect confuses you you can just ignore it and look for platform numbers instead.

 

[the sniper]

Its an underground station, what can you do with it.

I don’t think it was originally, happy to be corrected if I’m wrong. Darkness and choking emissions were by design in the sixties.

Exactly, 60 years ago.

The platforms are unavoidably underground and dark

Was it really unavoidable though? The station didn't need to remain underground, it was a choice, admittedly driven by money. A more radical redevelopment could have removed the 1960s structure rather than carve and polish it up. I don't think it's that hard to imagine a Utrecht Centraal style station occupying the current site. The current station was built around accommodating a massive retail unit that has proven superfluous within a few years, so much for that income stream...

 

[tomuk]

Was it really unavoidable though? The station didn't need to remain underground, it was a choice, admittedly driven by money. A more radical redevelopment could have removed the 1960s structure rather than carve and polish it up. I don't think it's that hard to imagine a Utrecht Centraal style station occupying the current site. The current station was built around accommodating a massive retail unit that has proven superfluous within a few years, so much for that income stream...

£750m was spent on redeveloping the station and shopping centre. I'm unsure how Utrecht Centraal is any comparison it is on viaducts above the streets and river of Utrecht and is very open area not like the cutting\canyon\tunnels in which New Street sits (well at least on three sides).

As regards the John Lewis unit work has already started on repurposing the space as the Drum

Major new office and restaurant space planned for Birmingham’s Grand Central
17-Jan-2023 By Joe Lutrario

Developer Hammerson has submitted plans to transform the former John Lewis department store at Birmingham’s Grand Central into 200,000 sq ft of offices that will also include a restaurant, bar and food market. https://www.bighospitality.co.uk/Ar...e-drum-planned-for-birmingham-s-grand-central

As regards the gates at New Street it is infinitely better than at was with three (four inc subway) access to the platforms, better access to Stephenson and Station Streets and the better facilities. I would suggest that most members of the general public have no issues with the station. Most threads on here start with 'What has happened to New Street since I've been their years ago' or complaints about the ticket gates which seem to be a pet hate of some as it keeps them from 'their' trains.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Was it really unavoidable though? The station didn't need to remain underground, it was a choice, admittedly driven by money. A more radical redevelopment could have removed the 1960s structure rather than carve and polish it up. I don't think it's that hard to imagine a Utrecht Centraal style station occupying the current site. The current station was built around accommodating a massive retail unit that has proven superfluous within a few years, so much for that income stream...

Whilst not 'unavoidable', they were never going to demolish prime retail space in the city centre. Especially as the 3rd shopping centre was already earmarked for turning into a single unit for Primark. Whilst a few units have come and gone, JLP was poorly executed rather than superfluous.

Also, the food court area is fantastic for both shoppers and travellers. And highly successful given there are more units there now than pre-covid, never mind since opening.

Whether that makes you any financial shortfall compared to the original plans I have no idea, but any income from Grand Central helps with the bottom line.

It may not be perfect, but it's probably my favourite station for facilities and ambiance (excluding platform level)

 

[daodao]

It is supposed to be a railway station, not a retail emporium, but its redesign has focussed on the latter. For an occasional user, its layout is very confusing. The platforms are still narrow, dank and dingy.

I haven't used New Street much since the rebuild, as most conferences that I attend are now on line, but the atrium and main connection area between the platforms should be behind the barriers. The last time I used it (pre-2020), fortunately the gates were open as I was not supposed to "break my journey" by exiting the barriers and then re-entering using the ticket that I held. Stations where one has to exit the barriers to change trains cause major problems when holding certain types of tickets. Manchester Piccadilly can also be awkward to use for this reason, and the ticket inspectors there are not very forgiving.

Whatever the criticisms of @Bletchleyite et al, Manchester Victoria is more pleasant and easier to use.

 

[GoneSouth]

It used to be a railway station with a tatty shopping centre built on top of it. Now it’s a shopping Centre with a rail station squeezed underneath it. The focus changed completely. I’m not saying that was the wrong thing to do, the Palisades was looking well past its sell by date. I think it’s what Euston would look like if you filled the middle with shops, still rubbish!

Is the John Lewis store still empty or is it now the biggest Wetherspoons in the world, or maybe the biggest Poundland ?

 

[xotGD]

it's probably my favourite station for facilities and ambiance (excluding platform level)

(My bold)

Isn't the "catching a train" bit meant to be its primary purpose?

That's like saying Meadowhall is great, except for the shops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was it really unavoidable though? The station didn't need to remain underground, it was a choice, admittedly driven by money. A more radical redevelopment could have removed the 1960s structure rather than carve and polish it up. I don't think it's that hard to imagine a Utrecht Centraal style station occupying the current site. The current station was built around accommodating a massive retail unit that has proven superfluous within a few years, so much for that income stream...

The John Lewis was but it's hardly an abandoned mall, there's plenty of stuff up there including an excellent food court. Those who moan about it should perhaps give it a go!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2023 ==

Was it really unavoidable though? The station didn't need to remain underground, it was a choice, admittedly driven by money. A more radical redevelopment could have removed the 1960s structure rather than carve and polish it up. I don't think it's that hard to imagine a Utrecht Centraal style station occupying the current site. The current station was built around accommodating a massive retail unit that has proven superfluous within a few years, so much for that income stream...

Because it's down a pit I doubt there was scope for it to be a more traditional station with a big concourse building on the side anyway, so it'd have been roughly as it is regardless of whether it had the shopping arcade on top or not.

The main problem with platform level is DMUs. If we could just get everything to bi-mode, then close it for a couple of weeks to sandblast the ceilings and fit some uplighters, it'd be great. There are a number of such stations in Europe, they're not manky because they're not full of diesel fumes and uplighting the ceiling makes them seem lighter and more spacious.

 

[zwk500]

(My bold)

Isn't the "catching a train" bit meant to be its primary purpose?

Depends who you ask - you could legitimately argue that it's primary purpose is to generate revenue. New Street does a better job of at least acknowledging it's a train station with the shops on the mezzanine above and a prominent departure board than St Pancras, where the shops are on the ground floor and the trains hidden away in 4 separate portions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends who you ask - you could legitimately argue that it's primary purpose is to generate revenue. New Street does a better job of at least acknowledging it's a train station with the shops on the mezzanine above and a prominent departure board than St Pancras, where the shops are on the ground floor and the trains hidden away in 4 separate portions.

Agreed, New St isn't as impressive a building as St Pancras but it is without a doubt a better railway station and a better shopping mall!

 

[DarloRich]

It is supposed to be a railway station, not a retail emporium, but its redesign has focussed on the latter.

It is a station and a shopping centre. It is a multi use multi level building. The station part is constrained by the upper levels. That said the station part is better than it was. It is lighter and cleaner than it was.

I think the key part is not to think of New Street as ONLY a station and certainly not a traditional station. That seems to be an issue for posters here perhaps for obvious reasons ( that posters here focus solely on trains).

Stations where one has to exit the barriers to change trains cause major problems when holding certain types of tickets.

i don't understand - could you explain/ provide further detail.

but the atrium and main connection area between the platforms should be behind the barriers

But I am not sure that was possible for the reasons stated above.

Isn't the "catching a train" bit meant to be its primary purpose?

It is the primary purpose of the station part but it is a mixed use location. The upper floors are not a station.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

(My bold)

Isn't the "catching a train" bit meant to be its primary purpose?

That's like saying Meadowhall is great, except for the shops.

I never said it was bad for catching a train though. I don't find it difficult but then I lived in Brum through the process of old - Stephenson St - New. With this being the best version of the 3.

The primary purpose of the lower level, yes. But how do you suppose that is changed?
Can't really reduce number of platforms, or widen them as the site is constrained on all sides.
Could possibly get more natural light down there but still won't massively improve it.

The Atrium, food court and shops/eateries are probably the best for variety in any UK train station (certainly from ones I've experienced)

 

[SuspectUsual]

I know your tastes have changed significantly but there was nothing better than a Bite Card discounted Burger King XL Bacon Double Cheeseburger from next to the bottom of the Pallasades escalators back in the day

Back in the day there was a Casey Jones on the concourse. Lovely burgers and milkshakes so thick that it popped your eardrums trying to suck it up the straw

 

[Sprinter107]

Back in the day there was a Casey Jones on the concourse. Lovely burgers and milkshakes so thick that it popped your eardrums trying to suck it up the straw

That was at the bottom of the Pallisades escalator. It went to a Burger King eventually. There was also a pub on the concourse too, where WHSmith eventually expanded, but I just cannot remember the name of it. I'm sure it had gone by the mid 80s if not even earlier.

 

[BeijingDave]

Back in the day there was a Casey Jones on the concourse. Lovely burgers and milkshakes so thick that it popped your eardrums trying to suck it up the straw

Really? I remember the ones at Lime Street being as described below (from The Mirror) and BK being a definite upgrade.
"There was a period in the 1980s when British Rail ran a series of fast food outlets called Casey Jones Burgers. The restaurants were located at the major rail stations such as London Bridge and Charing Cross. The burgers were quite indescribably vile; they certainly bore absolutely no resemblance to the paragon of great burger-ness featured in their adverts.

"They were actually composed of greasy, gristly, zombie flesh - like cold grey meat on the outside, and lava hot in the middle so that molten cheese scalded the roof of your mouth like dairy based napalm (I think they microwaved the burgers)."

 

[SuspectUsual]

Really?

Bear in mind I'd have been about 11 so anything other than the bland food my mum served up would've seemed amazing. But I do remember them being nice burgers. they certainly weren't microwaved

 

[Tester]

Bear in mind I'd have been about 11 so anything other than the bland food my mum served up would've seemed amazing. But I do remember them being nice burgers. they certainly weren't microwaved

They did a spicy bean burger, which was excellent.

 

[GoneSouth]

Agreed, New St isn't as impressive a building as St Pancras but it is without a doubt a better railway station and a better shopping mall!

St Pancras is now a beautiful building. New street certainly can’t be described as that. St P was absolutely horrid in the nineties though so there’s hope for BNS

 

[Bletchleyite]

St Pancras is now a beautiful building. New street certainly can’t be described as that. St P was absolutely horrid in the nineties though so there’s hope for BNS

Barnes?

I do like the atrium at New St, it's big, spacious and interesting. The platforms are manky but you don't need to spend much time down there, and are mostly manky because of DMUs. Even LHCS wasn't much of an issue as the loco would be outside.

The building outside I can see might be a bit Marmite but I don't think it's ugly even if it will probably look really dated in 10 years' time.

St Pancras is beautiful but it's not a particularly good station nor is it a particularly good shopping mall.

 

[zwk500]

Barnes?

Not a bad station, although not a patch on St P

I do like the atrium at New St. The platforms are manky but you don't need to spend much time down there, and are mostly manky because of DMUs. Even LHCS wasn't much of an issue as the loco would be outside.

Agreed, the Atrium and Facade at New Street are quite nice, although I wouldn't be putting either up for a RIBA prize anytime soon. The platforms are actually not too bad given the amount of time you spend down there, unless there's a Diesel idling in the platform and then you can't hear anything else.
The bit I find worse is the section with the shops above, as the white wavy panels do naff all to brighten up the space and simply remind you that the overall core of the horrific 60s building is still there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The bit I find worse is the section with the shops above, as the white wavy panels do naff all to brighten up the space and simply remind you that the overall core of the horrific 60s building is still there.

Never minded that. It does to me seem like a pretty good renovation of a manky 1960s shopping centre and a manky multistorey car park (the B end is in the old car park), which might not be 100% ideal but did save money, was better for the environment than new build (concrete is very carbon intensive) and avoided it being closed for months for a full rebuild.

The A end thing isn't 100% ideal, but it just needs better signage so people know to go to the B end to change.

 

[zwk500]

Never minded that. It does to me seem like a pretty good renovation of a manky 1960s shopping centre and a manky multistorey car park (the B end is in the old car park), which might not be 100% ideal but did save money, was better for the environment than new build (concrete is very carbon intensive) and avoided it being closed for months for a full rebuild.

The A end thing isn't 100% ideal, but it just needs better signage so people know to go to the B end to change.

It's hard to see what they could have done better given the requirements of the site. One of the problems with the lounges is that the Yellow and Blue aren't immediately visible from each other because of the coffee shop. Having said that, all they really need to do is change the signs to put the emphasis on the Platform Numbers not the lounge colours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's hard to see what they could have done better given the requirements of the site. One of the problems with the lounges is that the Yellow and Blue aren't immediately visible from each other because of the coffee shop. Having said that, all they really need to do is change the signs to put the emphasis on the Platform Numbers not the lounge colours.

Agreed, I'm not sure the "lounge" thing is actually useful, much as I otherwise really quite like the new signage. People do understand platform numbers.

At least it's not numbered like Edinburgh Waverley, which while it's a bit of a system doesn't make any sense whatsoever, it took me ages to work out what it was and I understand railways.

 

[zwk500]

This view shows the problem quite well: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.477...-topjCSg0hfsIfEAA-TGdgqdkJ!2e10!7i8364!8i4182

Notwithstanding the limited height, the 'Platform 2 and 3: Including 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b' is fundamentally wasteful sign design. The 'including A/b' stuff just isn't needed, people known that platform 2A will be on 2.
There's also no transverse signage for people as they turn from the escalators towards the ticket gates. It feels like every sign at New Street can only face one direction.

 

[GoneSouth]

Barnes?

Never been so can’t comment on the shopping facilities. Bet it’s easy to change trains there though.

I was trying to save typing effort on a mobile, didn’t occur to me I was typing a station code

 

[zwk500]

Never been so can’t comment on the shopping facilities. Bet it’s easy to change trains there though.

I was trying to save typing effort on a mobile, didn’t occur to me I was typing a station code

BNS for Barnes/New Street is a long running Forum bingo/argument point.

 

[GoneSouth]

This view shows the problem quite well: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.477...-topjCSg0hfsIfEAA-TGdgqdkJ!2e10!7i8364!8i4182

Notwithstanding the limited height, the 'Platform 2 and 3: Including 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b' is fundamentally wasteful sign design. The 'including A/b' stuff just isn't needed, people known that platform 2A will be on 2.
There's also no transverse signage for people as they turn from the escalators towards the ticket gates. It feels like every sign at New Street can only face one direction.

Didn’t realise that walk through existed, that’s helped hugely, thank you.

 

[Sprinter107]

This view shows the problem quite well: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.477...-topjCSg0hfsIfEAA-TGdgqdkJ!2e10!7i8364!8i4182

Notwithstanding the limited height, the 'Platform 2 and 3: Including 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b' is fundamentally wasteful sign design. The 'including A/b' stuff just isn't needed, people known that platform 2A will be on 2.
There's also no transverse signage for people as they turn from the escalators towards the ticket gates. It feels like every sign at New Street can only face one direction.

You reckon people would know that 2a is on platform 2 etc. I can guarantee you that is not the case with many people. I work trains into New Street, so see it first hand.