Cross Country HST withdrawals?

[londonmidland]

There are currently rumours circulating about that the XC HSTs will be starting to be taken off services after October this year?

Supposedly Cross Country are to make an announcement soon regarding this.

 

[sprinterguy]

I believe it's been mentioned on here previously that October is when the current lease and maintenance contracts finish, tallying with the end of the current direct award contract, so I wouldn't be at all surprised.

If DfT are looking for cost savings under any new direct award then the HSTs would seem to be an easy target.

 

[Liam L]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the plan to run 4 diagrams per day once the exams on MK3s was done?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the plan to run 4 diagrams per day once the exams on MK3s was done?

That was a plan back many months ago before DfT started working through the Annual Business Plans for this financial year in earnest. Things can and do change on the railway.

 

[DanNCL]

It’s entirely speculative at this point.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It’s entirely speculative at this point.

XC staff have been informed this afternoon that HSTs are to be phased out.

 

[DanNCL]

XC staff have been informed this afternoon that HSTs are to be phased out.

That they’d be phased out at some point in the not too distant future isn’t news, it’s been known for a long time they’d be phased out. News would be if there’s now a fixed and public timescale for it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That they’d be phased out at some point in the not too distant future isn’t news, it’s been known for a long time they’d be phased out. News would be if there’s now a fixed and public timescale for it.

There is a fixed timescale, it’s by the lease end date in October.

 

[DanNCL]

There is a fixed timescale, it’s by the lease end date in October.

So not really any different to what had been expected for a while then, they'd be gone before the end of the year. That was inevitable from the moment it was announced that the GWR sets were going.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Apparently the existing Voyagers are expected to fill the gap. All XC need is at least 5 extra Voyagers from Avanti West Coast to fill the gaps - 9-car Voyager diagrams on the HST routes will be an increase in capacity (462 seats vs 445 on the HST's)!

 

[JonathanH]

Quote here (the text in the picture reproduced as a quote):


https://twitter.com/TodaysRailways/status/1631688893991985153?cxt=HHwWgoC95e2Z9qQtAAAA

A CrossCountry spokesperson said: "While our High Speed Trains have served us well, they have been in use for over 40 years. We are making some changes to our fleet when the next timetable change is introduced in May. This is to enable us to run a more efficient service that also reflects the way people are now travelling for business and leisure and requires fewer trains to deliver the number of seats customers need at present. As such, there will be a phased removal of the High Speed Trains from the CrossCountry fleet.

 

[class 9]

Quote here (the text in the picture reproduced as a quote):

View attachment 130203
https://twitter.com/TodaysRailways/status/1631688893991985153?cxt=HHwWgoC95e2Z9qQtAAAA

The fact it says' requires fewer trains to deliver the number of seats customers need at present' looks like there won't be anything to replace them.

 

[JonathanH]

The fact it says' requires fewer trains to deliver the number of seats customers need at present' looks like there won't be anything to replace them.

Indeed, that appears to be the suggestion.

 

[gabrielhj07]

To me, that reads, “fewer seats on fewer services”.

The last time I used the SW-NE route, the HST running the service was full and standing between Bristol and York. It doesn’t appear any research has been done to conclude this is a sensible idea. One can only hope that they’ll see sense and snap up the WC voyagers once they realise the state of their services.

 

[JonathanH]

Apparently the existing Voyagers are expected to fill the gap. All XC need is at least 5 extra Voyagers from Avanti West Coast to fill the gaps - 9-car Voyager diagrams on the HST routes will be an increase in capacity (462 seats vs 445 on the HST's)!

No suggestion in what has been said that there will be additional stock in the short term to replace the HSTs.

Presumably if HSTs go through to a phased withdrawal up to October, XC can manage with its existing Voyager fleet for the rest of the financial year, with perhaps the faint hope of something else joining the fleet in the summer of 2024, when next years budgets are considered.

 

[JonathanH]

One can only hope that they’ll see sense and snap up the WC voyagers once they realise the state of their services.

The issue is funding and budgets, not sense.

 

[class 9]

The issue is funding and budgets, not sense.

And it won't be XCs decision, it'll be the DfT/Treasury.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

To me, that reads, “fewer seats on fewer services”.

The last time I used the SW-NE route, the HST running the service was full and standing between Bristol and York. It doesn’t appear any research has been done to conclude this is a sensible idea. One can only hope that they’ll see sense and snap up the WC voyagers once they realise the state of their services.

They will be fully aware of the ‘state of their services’. The number of seats vs customers is the publicly stated logic. The actual reason is the financial bottom line that DfT has imposed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It’s been posted online by Richard Clinnick (editor of Rail Express magazine) that the XC HSTs are to be withdrawn from the May timetable change.

WHAT! Not long ago I read in Modern Railways that the number of XC HST diagrams would be increased once an ongoing overhaul programme had been completed (also I think there was something about an additional pair of power cars so that the additional diagrams aren't asking for unrealisticlly high availability from the fleet). But, before those additional diagrams could even be delivered, we are now hearing the whole fleet is to be withdrawn...

Apparently the existing Voyagers are expected to fill the gap. All XC need is at least 5 extra Voyagers from Avanti West Coast to fill the gaps - 9-car Voyager diagrams on the HST routes will be an increase in capacity (462 seats vs 445 on the HST's)!

If XC don't get the ex-Avanti Voyagers (or refurbish them to match the XC fleet) then in terms of seats I could actually reserve with confidence that I'll have a view out of the window reduces from a few (the tables near the middle of the mark 3 coaches, which I'm pretty sure are ok) to zero if the IC125s go since I don't think the XC seat plans give you the information necessary to avoid pillar-block.

Since we're in the speculative section, I will add that in my view XC should have kept their small pool of IC125s (with with proposed increased diagrams noted above) until such time as further electrification frees up some class 800s which (reformed into 8-car sets) would replace XC's IC125s and some of the 22x fleet. Any additional 22x becoming available should also have gone to XC - not to replace IC125s but to:

• entirely eliminate operation of single 4-car class 220/221/222 sets (by semi-permanently coupling units into pairs and possibly reforming some units into longer sets and storing/scrapping the redundant driving vehicles this would create)
• increase the number of services on the Plymouth-Edinburgh route formed of 7 coaches (a mix of IC125s and 7-car class 222s)
• entirely replace the class 170s on the Cardiff-Nottingham route with 5-car class 222s (refurbished to replace all/most of the first class accomodation with standard class)
• refurbish the entire 22x fleet to a lower-density interior (to include more table bays aligned with the windows) but without changing the seats.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

WHAT! Not long ago I read in Modern Railways that the number of XC HST diagrams would be increased once an ongoing overhaul programme had been completed (also I think there was something about an additional pair of power cars so that the additional diagrams aren't asking for unrealisticlly high availability from the fleet). But, before those additional diagrams could even be delivered, we are now hearing the whole fleet is to be withdrawn...


If XC don't get the ex-Avanti Voyagers (or refurbish them to match the XC fleet) then in terms of seats I could actually reserve with confidence that I'll have a view out of the window reduces from a few (the tables near the middle of the mark 3 coaches, which I'm pretty sure are ok) to zero if the IC125s go since I don't think the XC seat plans give you the information necessary to avoid pillar-block.

Since we're in the speculative section, I will add that in my view XC should have kept their small pool of IC125s (with with proposed increased diagrams noted above) until such time as further electrification frees up some class 800s which (reformed into 8-car sets) would replace XC's IC125s and some of the 22x fleet. Any additional 22x becoming available should also have gone to XC - not to replace IC125s but to:

• entirely eliminate operation of single 4-car class 220/221/222 sets (by semi-permanently coupling units into pairs and possibly reforming some units into longer sets and storing/scrapping the redundant driving vehicles this would create)
• increase the number of services on the Plymouth-Edinburgh route formed of 7 coaches (a mix of IC125s and 7-car class 222s)
• entirely replace the class 170s on the Cardiff-Nottingham route with 5-car class 222s (refurbished to replace all/most of the first class accomodation with standard class)
• refurbish the entire 22x fleet to a lower-density interior (to include more table bays aligned with the windows) but without changing the seats.

Where would the money come to fund all this though?

 

[XCTurbostar]

For reference, here is the data which was made available today via private email.

Finally, I wanted to make sure you were aware of changes that we are making to our business in 2023. While our High Speed Trains have served us well, they have been in use for over 40 years. We are making some changes to our fleet when the next timetable change is introduced in May. This is to enable us to run a more efficient service that also reflects the way people are now travelling for business and leisure and requires fewer trains to deliver the number of seats customers need at present. As such, there will be a phased removal of the High Speed Trains from the CrossCountry fleet. I absolutely acknowledge that they have played an important role in our business’ history, and also our railway industry as a whole. We can be proud that we remain one of the last operators to run these trains.

Tom

The most important sentence being 'there will be a phased removal of the High Speed Trains from the CrossCountry fleet'

 

[HamworthyGoods]

For reference, here is the data which was made available today via private email.



The most important sentence being 'there will be a phased removal of the High Speed Trains from the CrossCountry fleet'

It’s not really a ‘private email’ if you share it on here…

 

[class 9]

It’s not really a ‘private email’ if you share it on here…

Company email

 

[SirDanielGooch]

More withdrawals without replacements. Less seats + Less services = less passengers.

I want to use the railways as much as possible, at its best it’s the best way to travel by far. But I feel like I’m being forced onto the roads by the DfT as the railways are made less convenient, less reliable, and less affordable every passing year.

 

[John Bishop]

There’s always going to be a mismatch in thinking between bean counters and train enthusiasts when it comes to HSTs. The fact of the matter is that they are very expensive to operate and are not getting any younger. Times are tough financially and the tide is turning on the TOCs HST fleets across the country. I suspect Scotrail will be in rundown phase in the not too distant future and will be the last operator of them.

 

[Meerkat]

Do they need to drastically change the diagrams if they are replacing HSTs based at Laira with Voyagers based at Central Rivers?

 

[DanNCL]

There’s always going to be a mismatch in thinking between bean counters and train enthusiasts when it comes to HSTs. The fact of the matter is that they are very expensive to operate and are not getting any younger. Times are tough financially and the tide is turning on the TOCs HST fleets across the country. I suspect Scotrail will be in rundown phase in the not too distant future and will be the last operator of them.

ScotRail are stuck with them for a while yet, whether they want them or not.

Do they need to drastically change the diagrams if they are replacing HSTs based at Laira with Voyagers based at Central Rivers?

Only changes required would be switching the ECS for 1E63 and 1V44 from Neville Hill to Crofton, and splitting two currently double voyager diagrams to provide the extra units.

 

[Meerkat]

Only changes required would be switching the ECS for 1E63 and 1V44 from Neville Hill to Crofton, and splitting two currently double voyager diagrams to provide the extra units.

Aren't the diagrams set up for the HSTs to end at Laira? Or is that only needed for more major work which is done outside the standard pattern?
Sorry if this is a dumb question - outsider looking in.

 

[DanNCL]

Aren't the diagrams set up for the HSTs to end at Laira? Or is that only needed for more major work which is done outside the standard pattern?
Sorry if this is a dumb question - outsider looking in.

The HST diagrams surprisingly don’t actually take them to Laira, they have to be swapped mid-day at Plymouth to rotate them through Laira as required.
With voyagers taking over, the units will be cycled through Central Rivers by rotating them across different diagrams, for example working an ex-HST diagram one day then a pre existing Voyager diagram the next and vice versa.

 

[12LDA28C]

Since we're in the speculative section, I will add that in my view XC should have kept their small pool of IC125s (with with proposed increased diagrams noted above) until such time as further electrification frees up some class 800s which (reformed into 8-car sets) would replace XC's IC125s and some of the 22x fleet. Any additional 22x becoming available should also have gone to XC - not to replace IC125s but to:

This is not the speculative section. This is happening, in October.