Evacuation of train in 3rd rail area

[Love life]

Is anyone able to answer how a guard evacuates a train during a fire?

What is the procedure? (Near a live rail)

There so many live rails at Waterloo, for example.

I know you would get the power turned off but what would you do after that? How would you ensure the safety of everyone under you.

How would you evacuate people with accessibility issues ect

Many thanks in advance

 

[ComUtoR]

I know you would get the power turned off but what would you do after that?

How would you get the power off ?

 

[Love life]

How would you get the power off ?

How would you get the power off

Maybe call the signaller, I know there's also something called Rec call via the GSMR unit in the cabs. Maybe a guard could also press that?

 

[DarloRich]

this is an interesting question - i wonder what has promoted it?

 

[ComUtoR]

Maybe call the signaller,

Potentially yes. This should be the first priority.

I know there's also something called Rec call via the GSMR unit in the cabs. Maybe a guard could also press that?

Where is the Guard ? Typically the Guard should be IN the train. They would have to head towards a cab, enliven the GSMR and then hit the REC button. This still wouldn't turn off the power.

Rewind a few steps. WHY is there an evacuation ? Then build from there. Are you thinking about a controlled or uncontrolled evacuation ? Is there an onboard emergency ? Where is the train located ? What is the Driver doing ?

During and evacuation, there are a lot of variables to consider.

How would you ensure the safety of everyone under you.

Keep them on the train.

 

[Llanigraham]

You don't evacuate them, you move them away from the fire to a different coach/unit.
You would only evacuate off the train in a dire emergency when none of the above worked, and even then only after ensuring that the signaller had been informed and the power turned off.

 

[Stigy]

Is anyone able to answer how a guard evacuates a train during a fire?

What is the procedure? (Near a live rail)

There so many live rails at Waterloo, for example.

I know you would get the power turned off but what would you do after that? How would you ensure the safety of everyone under you.

How would you evacuate people with accessibility issues ect

Many thanks in advance

Communication is key. If the guard discovers a fire inside the train and it’s a burning inferno, s/he’d make urgent communication with the driver and they’d formulate a plan between them…kind of on the hurry up.

Likewise if the driver is the one to be informed there’s a fire (engine fire or example), s/he’d contact the guard/signaller etc. the last thing anybody wants is for panic stricken staff to start getting people off a train with a potentially still live railway, especially if the fire can be dealt with without the need to evacuate at all. At least not immediately.

 

[L401CJF]

Stop the train if its moving would be a good start, using route knowledge to avoid stopping it in a tunnel/on a bridge or viaduct/somewhere difficult for emergency services access. Move passengers into an unaffected vehicle if possible and lock affected vehicle(s) if possible on that particular stock.

As said above you'd contact the driver and come up with a somewhat quick plan coming to a clear understanding on what action to take and who's doing what. Signaller needs to know, and if you're in 3rd rail/OLE territory, then the ECO needs to know. If you're having to perform an evacuation, identify a suitable position of safety which involves crossing the least number of lines and have assurance that power supply is off if applicable.

As said above, the fire could well be dealt with without the need to evacuate urgently.

If your question is just out of curiosity then fair enough! If its for guard/driver training/exam you should speak to your trainer.

 

[Robertj21a]

Communication is key. If the guard discovers a fire inside the train and it’s a burning inferno, s/he’d make urgent communication with the driver and they’d formulate a plan between them…kind of on the hurry up.

Likewise if the driver is the one to be informed there’s a fire (engine fire or example), s/he’d contact the guard/signaller etc. the last thing anybody wants is for panic stricken staff to start getting people off a train with a potentially still live railway, especially if the fire can be dealt with without the need to evacuate at all. At least not immediately.

I thought most 3rd rail trains didn't have guards ?

 

[Love life]

---

this is an interesting question - i wonder what has promoted it?

I would like to be a guard but I would like to do my research

Stop the train if its moving would be a good start, using route knowledge to avoid stopping it in a tunnel/on a bridge or viaduct/somewhere difficult for emergency services access. Move passengers into an unaffected vehicle if possible and lock affected vehicle(s) if possible on that particular stock.

As said above you'd contact the driver and come up with a somewhat quick plan coming to a clear understanding on what action to take and who's doing what. Signaller needs to know, and if you're in 3rd rail/OLE territory, then the ECO needs to know. If you're having to perform an evacuation, identify a suitable position of safety which involves crossing the least number of lines and have assurance that power supply is off if applicable.

As said above, the fire could well be dealt with without the need to evacuate urgently.

If your question is just out of curiosity then fair enough! If its for guard/driver training/exam you should speak to your trainer.

Thank you.

It isn't for an exam, do that not teach these scenarios in training school ?

 

[L401CJF]

---

I would like to be a guard but I would like to do my research


Thank you.

It isn't for an exam, do that not teach these scenarios in training school ?

Yes they teach you everything you need to know during training. Of course in the real world no 2 incidents/situations are the same and each require different actions.

 

[AM9]

How would you get the power off ?

Do drivers of 3rd rail trains carry shorting bars like LU drivers?

 

[baz962]

Do drivers of 3rd rail trains carry shorting bars like LU drivers?

Overground have them iirc .

 

[ComUtoR]

Do drivers of 3rd rail trains carry shorting bars like LU drivers?

In each cab for us.

 

[AM9]

In each can for us.

I assume that you meant: "In each cab for us". So would a guard be trained in the use of the bar and is there some sort of protocol like three trips are a signal for the control centre to shut local power down?

 

[Stigy]

Do drivers of 3rd rail trains carry shorting bars like LU drivers?

Yes but not always, and to be honest, you’d probably not need to use one unless it there was literally someone being electrocuted.

 

[ComUtoR]

I assume that you meant: "In each cab for us".

Yes, I tiped it wrongly :/

So would a guard be trained in the use of the bar

I don't believe ours are trained on it. I'd have to enquire. It's drilled into Driver training and checked daily on a prep. For us, the Guards role during an evac is very much to look after the passengers and to assist the Driver. The Driver would have already decided if the bar was required and would be responsible for using it. Once it's down, there are restrictions and I'm not sure if the Guard would know those. I'd love to be enlightened by existing 3rd rail Guards.

and is there some sort of protocol like three trips are a signal for the control centre to shut local power down?

I was taught:

First trip, the ECO will immediately try to reinstate the juice. (This is because it happens regularly and is often an animal getting crispy)

Next trip, and the ECO waits a minute and then tries again.

Next trip and they stop everything and call the Signaller

Third rail trains tend to arc and spark frequently. Again, I'd love to know from an ECOs perspective as what we are trained often doesn't match reality.

 

[OL-3944]

Merseyrail Guards are fully trained in Evacuation. In the past 6 months or so Merseyrail Guards have put down protection (bars) due to broken down units and sadly fatalities.

 

[AlterEgo]

Have there been any incidents lately of trains being evacuated onto third rail track which would make the news?

 

[Statto]

Have there been any incidents lately of trains being evacuated onto third rail track which would make the news?

Didn't make the news, but a Merseyrail 507 unit was involved in an incident near Cressington recently, & passengers had to be evacuated along the track.

One notorious one was that incident at Lewisham a few years ago.

2018 Lewisham train strandings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ComUtoR]

One notorious one was that incident at Lewisham a few years ago.

The Peckham one was "worse".

 

[Stigy]

I thought most 3rd rail trains didn't have guards ?

Was this a tongue in cheek comment?

All SWR trains have guards, as well as the likes of Merseyrail? Plus not all trains which travel on 3rd rail infrastructure are “metro” or commuter services, or indeed electric themselves.

 

[Love life]

Yes they teach you everything you need to know during training. Of course in the real world no 2 incidents/situations are the same and each require different actions.

Most certainly

 

[Horizon22]

Have there been any incidents lately of trains being evacuated onto third rail track which would make the news?

Define recently? You’ve had Lewisham and Peckham in the past 5 years but after that the industry got very scared and started really nailing in stranded train policies, uncontrolled evacuation actions etc. Some areas & people are still not fully appreciative of the risk though.

 

[ComUtoR]

Define recently? You’ve had Lewisham and Peckham in the past 5 years but after that the industry got very scared and started really nailing in stranded train policies, uncontrolled evacuation actions etc. Some areas & people are still not fully appreciative of the risk though.

Plenty don't make the news or even have RAIB reports for them. I think that 'The News' is generated from Twitter or RAIB update emails.

 

[Robertj21a]

Was this a tongue in cheek comment?

All SWR trains have guards, as well as the likes of Merseyrail? Plus not all trains which travel on 3rd rail infrastructure are “metro” or commuter services, or indeed electric themselves.

I thought many Southern and Thameslink trains didn't have guards ?
Is that wrong ?

 

[Horizon22]

Plenty don't make the news or even have RAIB reports for them. I think that 'The News' is generated from Twitter or RAIB update emails.

Of course. The issue with those two particularly was evacuation onto live 3rd rail. Certainly that would make RAIB or “rail news”.

Otherwise the incidents were handled better with power switched off in a controlled manner.

 

[ComUtoR]

Otherwise the incidents were handled better with power switched off in a controlled manner.

Maybe..... and we'll leave that scab not being picked.

 

[AM9]

Yes, I tiped it wrongly :/

It wasn't meant to be a criticism.

I don't believe ours are trained on it. I'd have to enquire. It's drilled into Driver training and checked daily on a prep. For us, the Guards role during an evac is very much to look after the passengers and to assist the Driver. The Driver would have already decided if the bar was required and would be responsible for using it. Once it's down, there are restrictions and I'm not sure if the Guard would know those. I'd love to be enlightened by existing 3rd rail Guards.

I was taught:

First trip, the ECO will immediately try to reinstate the juice. (This is because it happens regularly and is often an animal getting crispy)

Next trip, and the ECO waits a minute and then tries again.

Next trip and they stop everything and call the Signaller

Third rail trains tend to arc and spark frequently. Again, I'd love to know from an ECOs perspective as what we are trained often doesn't match reality.

The availbility of the shorting bar (together with appropriate training on it's use) is OK on 3rd rail EMUs, but if the route also carries non-3rd rail passenger stock* then presumably the crew would have to detain the passengers at least until they have confirmation of power shutdown.

* I'm thinking of XC trains on the the SWML west of Basingstoke and WoE line services between there and Waterloo. Then there's the unelectrified islands in 3rd rail land like the Marshlands line and the Uckfield branch, do those DMUs carry shorting bars with suitably trained crews to cover their running diesel over 3rd rail?

 

[Mawkie]

Is anyone able to answer how a guard evacuates a train during a fire?

I appreciate you're inquisitive, but I don't actually think that discussing satefy critical methods of working is appropriate in a public forum.