Evacuation of train in 3rd rail area

[Towers]

Yes. It is actually a grey area and a hard judgement for the signaller to make. I tend to do it very reluctantly, knowing how long it will take trains to start moving again afterwards. I know some signallers though that just ring the Ecro and put the pressure on them to make the decision.

How am I supposed to judge someone's intent though? I'm entirely dependent upon what the driver tells me.There is no specific training we receive for deciding whether to do it.

It is a bit weird really that the signaller is involved. Often we aren't trackside and the driver is probably best placed to make that decision.

I presume that any report of detrained passengers on the track is an immediate power off jobby without hesitation?

 

[bazzarati]

I presume that any report of detrained passengers on the track is an immediate power off jobby without hesitation?

Yes. Happy to confirm that information would make it simple and fast

 

[Surreytraveller]

Push the red button Signaller and ECO will stop all movements and de-energise the current hopefully before the headless chickens run amok!

That's not what the red button does. The red button broadcasts an emergency stop message to other trains.
It doesn't cause the Signaller to stop movements.
And the ECO doesn't have GSMR, so it won't have any effect on them

 

[The Puddock]

And the ECO doesn't have GSMR, so it won't have any effect on them

They all have terminal numbers listed in the national GSM-R directory:


(image shows extract from GSM-R directory)

 

[LAX54]

You don't evacuate them, you move them away from the fire to a different coach/unit.
You would only evacuate off the train in a dire emergency when none of the above worked, and even then only after ensuring that the signaller had been informed and the power turned off.

Indeed always stay on the train if at all possible, and never detrain near live rails, there would have been a REC call to the Signaller, and the Signaller will in turn, either request himself, or via the SSM and Emergency Isolation, if it's needed, this will cut off all power, and for a very wide area, stopping everthing within the same area, this will stay in place until its safe to re-engerise, or hook switches have been pulled to shorten the affected area

It wasn't meant to be a criticism.




The availbility of the shorting bar (together with appropriate training on it's use) is OK on 3rd rail EMUs, but if the route also carries non-3rd rail passenger stock* then presumably the crew would have to detain the passengers at least until they have confirmation of power shutdown.

* I'm thinking of XC trains on the the SWML west of Basingstoke and WoE line services between there and Waterloo. Then there's the unelectrified islands in 3rd rail land like the Marshlands line and the Uckfield branch, do those DMUs carry shorting bars with suitably trained crews to cover their running diesel over 3rd rail?

Although if the power goes off for no reason, (short circuiting bar) ECRO will tell the Signaller, and he will caution any non electric train in the area, to see if there is a visual reason for the tripping, of course the person who used the bar, may well have already told the Signaller.

 

[Towers]

Although if the power goes off for no reason, (short circuiting bar) ECRO will tell the Signaller, and he will caution any non electric train in the area, to see if there is a visual reason for the tripping, of course the person who used the bar, may well have already told the Signaller.

You'd hope so!

 

[Sparrowman]

This is quite an interesting video, from YouTube, which covers evacuating in a 3rd rail environment.

 

[Meerkat]

They all have terminal numbers listed in the national GSM-R directory:

View attachment 131026
(image shows extract from GSM-R directory)

Is that how the railway spells Canterbury?

 

[LAX54]

You'd hope so!

You would, but many moons ago I know of two incidents where one was used, and ECRO were only told a while later ! mind you we have moved on from those days

 

[ComUtoR]

They all have terminal numbers listed in the national GSM-R directory:

View attachment 131026
(image shows extract from GSM-R directory)

Are they terminal numbers or phone contacts ? If someone had the number listed could they phone it from their mobile ? I remember you could, and probably still can, call the railway telephones from external lines.

I don't know what a terminal number is. Does each GSMR terminal have a specific registration number ?

 

[The Puddock]

Are they terminal numbers or phone contacts ? If someone had the number listed could they phone it from their mobile ? I remember you could, and probably still can, call the railway telephones from external lines.

I don't know what a terminal number is. Does each GSMR terminal have a specific registration number ?

I have blanked out the actual dialling numbers in the right hand column. The directory entries are numbered in alphabetical ascending order from 1 (Abbey Foregate signal box) to 867 (which is an engineering terminal) but I don’t know whether these numbers relate to the serial number of the terminal or are just a way of keeping track of the entries.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have blanked out the actual dialling numbers in the right hand column.

They look like phone numbers of some description. I'm pretty sure I could ring one from my mobile.

I don’t know whether these numbers relate to the serial number of the terminal or are just a way of keeping track of the entries.

The numbers are row numbers from an excel sheet

I'm not convinced that every number in the contact list is to a GSMR terminal but I'm slightly convinced that ECO's would potentially have a GSMR terminal. I haven't been an ECO's place for years so I'd love to know how they are communicating and how they connect to Drivers/Signallers

 

[Horizon22]

I don't know what a terminal number is. Does each GSMR terminal have a specific registration number ?

Yes they do.

 

[The Puddock]

They look like phone numbers of some description. I'm pretty sure I could ring one from my mobile.



The numbers are row numbers from an excel sheet

I'm not convinced that every number in the contact list is to a GSMR terminal but I'm slightly convinced that ECO's would potentially have a GSMR terminal. I haven't been an ECO's place for years so I'd love to know how they are communicating and how they connect to Drivers/Signallers

You can’t dial into the GSM-R system from an ordinary mobile phone, only with a Funkwerk handheld device with a GSM-R enabled sim card. The obscured numbers in the right hand column are the 74-xxx-xxxx numbers that you can dial from a cab mobile, fixed terminal or Funkwerk handheld. You can however call out from the GSM-R system to external mobile and landline numbers.

The ECRs do all have a GSM-R fixed terminal similar to the ones in operations control offices (which run different software from the signalbox ones but look broadly similar) and they receive REC calls relevant to their area, albeit in listening mode only.

 

[ComUtoR]

You can’t dial into the GSM-R system from an ordinary mobile phone, only with a Funkwerk handheld device with a GSM-R enabled sim card. The obscured numbers in the right hand column are the 74-xxx-xxxx numbers that you can dial from a cab mobile, fixed terminal or Funkwerk handheld. You can however call out from the GSM-R system to external mobile and landline numbers.

Cheers for the replies. To further my understanding; When I call the Signaller from my mobile. Is that to a normal phone at every panel ? With the old '00' prefix railway phone numbers you could call them directly using "X" and then the number. With those obfsucated numbers you have. They have similar prefix codes. From what you are saying, does the GSMR have an additional security layer to prevent calls.

The ECRs do all have a GSM-R fixed terminal similar to the ones in operations control offices (which run different software from the signalbox ones but look broadly similar) and they receive REC calls relevant to their area, albeit in listening mode only.

That makes sense. Something deep in my memory is telling me that control will listen tot he RECs and wait till a certain length of time before they can answer.

Yes they do.

Thanks

**edit**
I think I found the answer. There are 3 numbers listed for box panels (int/ext/GSMR) and the ECO has a list of those 74xx numbers listed (which are publicly available FYI)

 

[The Puddock]

Cheers for the replies. To further my understanding; When I call the Signaller from my mobile. Is that to a normal phone at every panel ? With the old '00' prefix railway phone numbers you could call them directly using "X" and then the number. With those obfsucated numbers you have. They have similar prefix codes. From what you are saying, does the GSMR have an additional security layer to prevent calls.

You’re getting confused with the ordinary railway extension trunk dialling (ETD) internal calling system. These ETD numbers are in the format 04-xxxxx, 05-xxxxx, 021-xxxxx, 026-xxxxx, 085-xxxxx or similar depending on where you are in the country. If you’re calling an internal number from an ETD phone you only need to dial the first two or three digits if you are calling an extension outside your own exhange area. An ETD phone may also be called from a mobile or other external landline if you know the direct dial British Telecom (BT) number, which may or may not be similar to the ETD number. You can call an external mobile or landline number directly from a railway ETD phone using a 91 prefix before the full BT number. There are various short codes available within the ETD system too, such as the Electrical Control Room three digit emergency numbers.

As you mention, authorised railway issued mobile phones can also dial into the ETD system by using the 81 or 00 prefix depending on the mobile network provider. Recently the system has started to be converted to voice-over-IP (VOIP) network and calling in to this from external phones is much easier via an 0330 or 0333 number without needing the prefix. Some railway companies don’t use the ETD system at all and just use ordinary BT landline numbers instead.

The internal railway ETD phone network is an entirely seperate entity from the GSM-R system, except the GSM-R can call into the ETD system (not the other way round). The 74-xxx-xxxx numbers are not accessible at all without a GSM-R sim, either in a cab mobile, a fixed terminal or a Funkwerk handheld.

That makes sense. Something deep in my memory is telling me that control will listen tot he RECs and wait till a certain length of time before they can answer.

The relevant Network Rail operations control will also receive the REC call but will only speak if the lead signaller doesn’t answer within one minute. The ECR is listen-only but the operations control can listen and speak if needed.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thank you, and enjoy those muddy puddles

 

[Nova1]

This is quite an interesting video, from YouTube, which covers evacuating in a 3rd rail environment.

All I could hear all the way through this was "you'll be going nowhere"

 

[Stigy]

GWR 16x? They don't carry SCBs. The only GWR fleet that does is 387, although the nearest they get to DC electrified lines is on platform 7 at Reading...

I had a look on a 165 last night on depot, and can confirm they do actually carry SCBs. Can’t say for sure about the 166s we use though as you can’t check the emergency cupboard without breaking the glass to get in.

 

[43066]

GWR 16x? They don't carry SCBs. The only GWR fleet that does is 387, although the nearest they get to DC electrified lines is on platform 7 at Reading...

I had a look on a 165 last night on depot, and can confirm they do actually carry SCBs. Can’t say for sure about the 166s we use though as you can’t check the emergency cupboard without breaking the glass to get in.

Makes sense as they still run down to Gatwick, AIUI?

 

[Stigy]

Makes sense as they still run down to Gatwick, AIUI?

Indeed, and Portsmouth to Southampton.