Our 165/6 stock carry short circuit bars initially due to the Guildford area I assume, but now we use those trains on other 3rd rail areas (Portsmouth to Southampton). We did have them on our 158s too (for the Portsmouth area) but as far as I’m aware and on checking recently they’ve been removed.It wasn't meant to be a criticism.
The availbility of the shorting bar (together with appropriate training on it's use) is OK on 3rd rail EMUs, but if the route also carries non-3rd rail passenger stock* then presumably the crew would have to detain the passengers at least until they have confirmation of power shutdown.
* I'm thinking of XC trains on the the SWML west of Basingstoke and WoE line services between there and Waterloo. Then there's the unelectrified islands in 3rd rail land like the Marshlands line and the Uckfield branch, do those DMUs carry shorting bars with suitably trained crews to cover their running diesel over 3rd rail?
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Evacuation of train in 3rd rail area
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My PTS is AC/DC So you would need someone who has AC or DC only but my assumption would not be allowed on that infrastructure without the training required. Similarly I would assume that any unit going over 3rd rail would require a SCB. I'd also be interested to find out. When I drove mixed traction, you would have both. We still get trained to use TCOC's in AB and ACB lines
You could use a SCB on OHLE but you would need a very high ladder and our evacuation ladders are pretty short. Putting the bar down live is pretty rare and you also use it for some fault finding too.
'Protection' is always going to be complicated with all sorts of weird and wonderful scenarios but the main caveats are always followed. Stop safely, communicate, protect the line, juice off, stay on train where possible, get assistance. It's all about applying the basics to whatever scenario you are in.
PTS - Personal track safety
AC - Alternating Current
DC -Direct current
SCB - short circuit bar
TCOC - Track Circuit operating clips
AB - Absolute block
ACB - Axle count block
OHLE - Overhead line equipment
I’ve been AC/DC trained for years but have never been taught SCB usage other than maybe in passing discussion. Certainly never been assessed on it.
In DC land, what would you do to get the juice off in an emergency ? Signaller/ECO ?
JLX5
Member
At my TOC, class 350 /2, /3, /4 all run in 3rd rail territory down towards London Euston but have no SCB on board. I am also AC/DC trained in PTS but DC was not trained on the same level as AC.
dctraindriver
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As a driver it’s always the Sig. I’ve had to use the SCB twice over the years.
Signaller usually. If someone was dying in front of me, I’d probably crack open out the SCB.
We are in the curious position of holding DC lines PTS for the few hundred yards of 3rd rail at Hunts Cross, however in practice the training is minimal beyond identifying the components of the power equipment itself and switching it off in an emergency via the signaller (rule book was changed I believe to say they should be the contact for emergency switch offs as they can also stop traffic whilst making arrangements with the ECO).
Our trains certainly don't carry any 3rd rail kit like short circuiting bars.
Our trains certainly don't carry any 3rd rail kit like short circuiting bars.
It was similar to my PTS at SWR, we changed from just DC to DC and AC, but it was very DC centric. And (unsurprisingly) when I went to GWR it was the opposite.
At TFW we are AC DC trained, very small DC bits being Bidston station and Chester platform 7 to Chester North Junction only.
We arnt trained to use short circuiting bars and do not carry them, I dont recall ever discussing it in training either. We are told if we need an emergency switch off to call Sandhills ECO via emergency telephone (Green label), GSMR or mobile.
We arnt trained to use short circuiting bars and do not carry them, I dont recall ever discussing it in training either. We are told if we need an emergency switch off to call Sandhills ECO via emergency telephone (Green label), GSMR or mobile.
Interesting about the training. Mine near 20yrs ago was pretty even split DC/AC. Fast forward a few years and the AC side has certainly slipped. We are no longer trained on all the parts of the OHLE and just need to learn stanchion information and that its 25k and has a 'red bond'
I've used the bar once and been trackside a couple of handful of times. Evacuations none but a few times where the train decamps because of onboard fire but each time has been at a station. Only had proper evacuation training twice in my career.
I've used the bar once and been trackside a couple of handful of times. Evacuations none but a few times where the train decamps because of onboard fire but each time has been at a station. Only had proper evacuation training twice in my career.
Lots don’t, but many do. It just seemed a bit I’d a bizarre statement since this who discussion has been about guards roles in train evacuations in 3rd Rail areas.
Hi.
A stranded train that needs evacuated would be done after a risk assessment by the TOC and Route Control.
You would review things like weather, visibility, site conditions and things like traction limitations such as how long lights and heating last if the train has no power. If the DC traction current is off then things like a train to train evacuation would be limited either by the gangways or opposite. They is no defined answer it really depends on the situation and many other factors. If you can get people off but there is nowhere to take them that would be just as bad.
The last update to module AC did away with the specific reference to red, it's now 'A broken or defective bond, in which case you must state the colour of the bond'. Probably because there are a lot of traction bonds that are black (the installers ran out of red cable?) and many bonds that were originally red have faded to a pale pink colour.
Not any more it doesn't
GWR 16x? They don't carry SCBs. The only GWR fleet that does is 387, although the nearest they get to DC electrified lines is on platform 7 at Reading...
You said in an earlier post that you hadn't been trained to use one, so you shouldn't be applying a SCB as you're not competent to do so (module DC sec 6.3: 'If it is not possible to use other ways to get the electricity switched off in an emergency, you may apply a short-circuiting bar but only if you are competent to do so').
All SWR guards are trained in the use of the short circuiting bar and assessed on it as part of their rules.
Love life
Member
Thank you for your reply
I’d apply common sense based on years of railway experience. Sadly that seems to be dying out on the railway these days and no doubt I’d get a telling off….
maybe it was just the 158s in that case, I was sure they were removed from them though. I definitely took one out of a cupboard on board a train though (I only sign 158s and 16x) as I was improvising with something on a depot…
If you apply a SCB without knowing what you're doing, it won't just be common sense dying out.
It's a fundamental principle of railway operations that you only carry out tasks at which you're competent, to stop people using 'common sense' and injuring/killing themselves or others. See G1 sec 1.1.
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Do you work on the railway, and if so, are you management?
Surreytraveller
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Mnq
Management are very good at telling people how to do their jobs despite never having done the job themselvesDo you work on the railway, and if so, are you management?
It’s the Rail Minister checking up on procedures
Deepgreen
Established Member
Also Reigate to Gatwick via Redhill and Wokingham to Reading.
Railman166
New Member
Push the red button Signaller and ECO will stop all movements and de-energise the current hopefully before the headless chickens run amok!
I didn't think 'Big Red' would also switch off the juice. Also, does the ECO have a GSMR terminal ?
I’ve seen people running all over the tracks before and the reluctance to authorise an emergency switch off is quite staggering….it also can take time.
Yes. It is actually a grey area and a hard judgement for the signaller to make. I tend to do it very reluctantly, knowing how long it will take trains to start moving again afterwards. I know some signallers though that just ring the Ecro and put the pressure on them to make the decision.
How am I supposed to judge someone's intent though? I'm entirely dependent upon what the driver tells me.There is no specific training we receive for deciding whether to do it.
It is a bit weird really that the signaller is involved. Often we aren't trackside and the driver is probably best placed to make that decision.
In the early 90s I got snowed in with a 10 coach EPB at New Cross. The juice was turned off and I had to make my way to the front of the train to speak to the driver. A middle age prototype Karen started haranguing me and said she was going to walk to the station. I asked "who is your next of kin ?" and she replied "Why?". I said "well there are live rails under the snow so you'll be burned to a crisp so your loved ones will want to know".
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