RMT TOC dispute update

[12LDA28C]

the NEC who have decided after all this time that they no longer want to discuss conditions and an unconditional offer is all they'll consider.

If this is what you believe, how do you explain the fact that on the NR side, the RMT has put the latest offer to the members for referendum?

 

[Kite159]

If this is what you believe, how do you explain the fact that on the NR side, the RMT has put the latest offer to the members for referendum?

Because they faced a rebellion from the members about not getting the chance to vote?

 

[12LDA28C]

Because they faced a rebellion from the members about not getting the chance to vote?

If the RMT exec's position was as entrenched as some on here seem to believe, they wouldn't care less about a 'rebellion from members' and stick to their guns.

 

[Goldfish62]

If this is what you believe, how do you explain the fact that on the NR side, the RMT has put the latest offer to the members for referendum?

It's not what I believe, it's a fact. It's what has happened. The NEC rejected the latest offer that the negotiators took back and went further by saying that they no longer wanted to discuss conditions. Do you deny that is what happened?

What's NR got to do with it? This a thread about the RDG dispute.

 

[ADIRU]

The pay deal is on the table, a full and final offer. TSSA have accepted it, ASLEF is considering it, RMT are still striking. The pay deal is what it is, especially given the 5% offer to NHS staff today, that's the best that anyone is going to get.
There is possibly movement on the backpay, ie push the backpay date back to get a bigger sum whilst keeping the percentage increases the same.

I agree with the above, this is the RDG (Government) throwing down the gauntlet. Change is coming whether the unions or the staff like it or not. Government is playing hardball with the RMT and vice versa. Changes will be consulted on and potentially brought in with or without the RMT, what's the worst that can happen? RMT members go out on strike?

If I were the RMT I would take any offer soon before inflation falls...

 

[footprints]

Deflection won't alter the fact you said the strikes have achieved nothing when, as g492p pointed out, the offer was subsequently improved. If you can't stay on topic with your own opinion what chance has a forum thread got?

Perhaps you could share the reported improvements in the latest offer with the RMT since they appear to have missed them?

 

[Towers]

And secondly, at this point what if anything is to stop the return of DOO/DCO?

Absolutely nothing at all...

 

[Drogba11CFC]

And secondly, at this point what if anything is to stop the return of DOO/DCO?

Expense and practicality?

I could be wrong, but I can imagine that making all stations on their 3rd rail network DOO-capable and retrofitting their units for DOO would be outrageously expensive for SWR and would tie up a massive chunk of their Desiro fleet.

 

[Mwanesh]

Can't see the strikes lasting longer. It has gone long enough that it makes no difference to the travelling public. Its not even news anymore. Mick Lynch is getting agitated easily saw his Sky interview it was a disaster. He thinks everyone who asks a question is a government puppet.

 

[Carlisle]

The impression I get is that it was always understood by the negotiators, Lynch included, but their work over the past year has been slapped down by the NEC who have decided after all this time that they no longer want to discuss conditions and an unconditional offer is all they'll consider.

No surprise there really, the same tactic’s been used successfully by the RMT in several previous rail disputes.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It'll be interesting to see if the union's zero compromise stance on ticket offices remains or not. If it's made clear that moves are commencing to close them anyway, the options would appear to be to dig in even further, or to start to having sensible discussions about the replacement job roles going forwards. The union has an opportunity here to have a constructive input into those roles; let's hope they choose to take advantage of that rather than stick fingers in ears and pretend it isn't happening.

I agree. (my bold)

Presumably the "consultation" process means that no pay increases, if any at all, can be expected until the end of the year?

Not necessarily. It means that the changes are now going to go ahead regardless of any pay increases. It basically separates the Workforce Changes and the Pay Increases in to two separate matters rather than the Pay being linked to the changes. If anything it makes it easier for a pay increase to be agreed individually of any changes. As I said yesterday the RDG could now just offer a straight pay offer with no conditions or strings attached - which is exactly what the RMT has asked for. The fact that the proposed workforce changes are now going to go ahead anyway independently of any pay increases is largely irrelevant. The down side is that the pay offer without conditions could now be lower than that offered so far as the RDG could say "that 5 + 4 offer was linked to conditions. As there are no conditions now the offer is only 3 + 2" or something like that. I suspect they won't, however. But it certainly means the % offered is highly unlikely to increase. They have no reason to make a better offer because they will be making the proposed workforce changes irrespective of whether the RMT agrees or not.

The strikes have already improved the offer made to us a great deal. We’re already being offered more money and less preconditions. Originally the RDG had a whole raft of terrible proposals that the union batted away through negotiation.

Please can you advise how the offer has "improved a great deal"? The RDG still has a raft of terrible proposals. Which ones have been batted away by the RMT? So far I can only think of DOO, but that was only really thrown in at the last minute in December just so they could remove it again in January and could say they have made changes.

I didn’t read anything in the email that suggests pay deal negotiations will continue individually by the TOCs. RDG provided notice to the RMT that the TOCs will now start the opening stages of implementation, whether there is an agreement or not.

Agreed.

Excuse my ignorance, not being in the industry, but my understanding of the RMT wanting an offer without conditions was that the charges in T&Cs demanded by the DfT would have been substantial within some TOCs but much less in others. eg in some TOCs staff had already agreed 7-day weeks (at a price, of course ) while others operated Sundays as overtime, either voluntary or contractual. The DfT would have imposed this nationwide without any extra increase within the affected TOCs. Am I right?

Yes, in my view.

The basic gist is that the RMT have a huge fight on their hands. As it stands, I believe they are something that rhymes with ‘butterly ducked’!

The latest missive from Mick Lynch suggests RDG plan to implement reforms without negotiating with RMT - it’s a like it or lump it scenario. A consultation is just basically paying lip service to those being consulted.

As I understand it, Mr Lynch is calling a meeting with the reps from each affected TOC grades to discuss next steps. I just don’t believe there is much he can do about it at this stage. It’s now an exercise in damage limitation for RMT members. The only chink of light for Guards is if ASLEF ride to the rescue on DOO. By no means is thar a certainty.

I agree with all the above, except I would certainly not hold out any hope of Aslef coming to the rescue. As has been seen many times before, Aslef have zero interest in any other grade and would sell their own Grannies for an extra pay increase given half a chance.

Have the TOCs not consulted on working practice reforms before this?

No.

 

[Annetts key]

If I were the RMT I would take any offer soon before inflation falls...

I fear that you don’t understand how pay offers and the rate of inflation work. Inflation measures the average amount that prices have risen compared to a previous time (date). If inflation was to drop to zero, that just means that prices are not currently increasing. So the current rate of inflation falling slightly does not change the rate of inflation in the past, and hence the figure that negotiations may be based on.

 

[Russel]

For clarity, what are the working practices that are in scope for the government to change?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I was able to get a normal Merseyrail service today as that's a TOC not in dispute (but still needs the members sign off for the Network Rail offer to avoid further action there). Hopefully if that gets rubberstamped it should be easy for more TOC's to follow.

Some TOC's would settle easier than others. It might be tricker for those with really poor morale/staff and employer relations (TPE/Avanti for example).

I would thin the opposite, TOC's like Avanti have almost identical terms to that which the DfT is proposing therefore it's a pay rise for no real change to conditions.

TOCs like mine who have excellent conditions stand to either lose a lot for little monetary gain (no chance of harmonising pay and conditions), or have a long drawn out process as the question will always be why we won't accept term that others already have.

 

[LAX54]

If this is what you believe, how do you explain the fact that on the NR side, the RMT has put the latest offer to the members for referendum?

and possibly looks like acceptance, but of course no one will know until Monday

 

[PupCuff]

For clarity, what are the working practices that are in scope for the government to change?

It should be reasonably assumed that nothing is out of scope but the workforce change principles shared in another dispute thread talked about station multiskilling, catering "reassessment" and introduction of a phased payscale for conductors, amongst other things.

 

[Russel]

It should be reasonably assumed that nothing is out of scope but the workforce change principles shared in another dispute thread talked about station multiskilling, catering "reassessment" and introduction of a phased payscale for conductors, amongst other things.

None of which seem unreasonable to me, if the industry is serious about having a long term future.

 

[Meerkat]

Is there any scope for the RDG pay offer to be withdrawn and then different offers being given to different TOCs, with the cover that the end point is all TOCs being on a similar T&Cs and wages?
If that meant increasing the offer for some and reducing it for others that would be a huge test of unity for the RMT.
Or if its the DfT that are feeling weak then give them an excuse to just raise the pay offer just for those most affected with the excuse that their desired changes are going through.

 

[Annetts key]

None of which seem unreasonable to me, if the industry is serious about having a long term future.

The employers/government would have you believe that none of what they are or have proposed is or were unreasonable. However, obviously, so far, that’s not the view of the employees. And hence the view of the union.

Outside the railway, I have views that are reasonable to me, but which the current government call unreasonable.

The devil is often in the detail.

And none of this has anything to do with the railways long term future.

 

[JonathanH]

If I were the RMT I would take any offer soon before inflation falls...

The dispute is, and will remain, about the 2022 increases, judged in the context of inflation at that time.

 

[g492p]

Is that the same latest offer that the RMT described as "dreadful"?

Yep that one. It was going to be lot more dreadful before industrial action.

Nobody is now being offered anything! There may have been potential to tweak the last offer into something acceptable, but it would have required some degree of give on the RMT side, and some grasp of smart negotiating and the ability to understand when you are fighting an unwinable fight. Alas, that doesn't seem to have materialised.

We will see what’s offered next. There is always a degree of give on the Union side. Has been in the past and will be now. At the end of the day the union goes by what the members want. The member are willing to compromise so the Union will be too.

 

[43066]

Aslef have zero interest in any other grade and would sell their own Grannies for an extra pay increase given half a chance.

They exist to represent the interests of their members, to be fair, who are all drivers. Why would they be looking out for other grades?

Interests are often aligned, though; for example (and highly relevant to this thread), ASLEF oppose the spread of DOO, albeit for different reasons than the RMT.

There does appear to be a fair bit of unjustified resentment towards ASLEF amongst other railway grades.

 

[dk1]

There does appear to be a fair bit of unjustified resentment towards ASLEF amongst other railway grades.

I find that usually comes from envy. When you get the types who bring that up it often includes “good luck to you guys but…”

 

[172007]

Expense and practicality?

I could be wrong, but I can imagine that making all stations on their 3rd rail network DOO-capable and retrofitting their units for DOO would be outrageously expensive for SWR and would tie up a massive chunk of their Desiro fleet.

Well, as the class 350' and the 172's have had cameras for DCO added I would seem not the case.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Well, as the class 350' and the 172's have had cameras for DCO added I would seem not the case.

There is that, but it would still cause a stock shortage and would likely cost a fortune.

 

[DC1989]

The dispute is, and will remain, about the 2022 increases, judged in the context of inflation at that time.

Multiple comments on the various strike threads have been insistent that the strikes were 'nothing to do with pay'

 

[PupCuff]

None of which seem unreasonable to me, if the industry is serious about having a long term future.

Perhaps. I've been in the industry a while now, in frontline and management roles, and I'm not sure I share your optimism. Change is needed - if you don't adapt, you get left behind - I just worry a lot of the change being proposed is ideologically driven rather than driven on the basis of careful planning and the available evidence. I would question whether the customer (both passenger and ultimately freight too with the various NR reforms) are at the heart of what the change is trying to achieve.

It feels like someone somewhere is saying this needs to change; that needs to change etc, without first determining what the industry wants to be changing into.

Still, no doubt details of the proposed workforce change will come in due course and with the detail I may be minded to change my thoughts.

 

[12LDA28C]

The dispute is, and will remain, about the 2022 increases, judged in the context of inflation at that time.

There are plenty of posts on this forum by union members who have clearly stated they would accept no pay rise if their terms and conditions remained unchanged. Doesn't sound like it's all about a 2022 pay increase to me.

 

[387star]

Having weeks of spares with the days off moved around at short notice and with huge flexibility with notice for shift changes is probably the major sticking point now

 

[ComUtoR]

None of which seem unreasonable to me, if the industry is serious about having a long term future.

Everything seems reasonable; until it affects you.

The terms and conditions will affect the employee so it's easy to see what's being imposed as reasonable.

All you have to do is have a quick look through the forum to see the fallout of what the "Government" think is reasonable but the second it affects the passenger, all hell breaks lose.

Be VERY careful what you wish for.