South London Line before London Overground

[miklcct]

Before London Overground connected South London Line and East London Line in 2012, the service on South London Line was operated by Southern between Victoria and London Bridge.

How's the service back then? Was it well used? What was the reaction when the London service was cut off from these stations, making them orbital?

 

[JonathanH]

It only ran twice an hour and with short trains. London Overground increased the service to 4tph and diverted it to Clapham Junction, both of which increased demand. The reality is that more passengers use the Northern Line than previously used the Southern services.

More here https://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/the-end-of-an-era-on-the-south-london-line/

With the opening of the London Overground Service from Clapham Junction to Dalston Junction it is time to say goodbye to the South London Line.

The line provided a direct link between the London Brighton and South Coast Railways City and West End termini. Prior to the introduction of electric trams in the 1890s up to eight million passengers a year travelled on this route. The trams bit hard into those numbers however, and by 1908 there were less than three million.

and https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/towards-the-start-of-a-new-era-on-the-south-london-line/

Train Loadings at London Bridge. On the face of it the argument for discontinuing SLL services seems overwhelming.

Thameslink reconstruction at London Bridge means that only six terminating platforms will be available instead of nine from May 2013. Clearly some services would no longer be able to terminate at London Bridge from that date. This does of course beg the question why it was felt necessary to discontinue the SLL service from December 2012. The SLL used only four carriages in the peak hours and each of the two trains an hour in the morning had an average of only around 240 passengers. This was in stark contrast to a train from Brighton which could be expected to have over 800 commuters aboard. It was inevitable the SLL would be one of the services proposed for withdrawal – at the very least until 2018 when fewer terminating trains due to Thameslink may mean that there will be platform availability again.

 

[Rescars]

Historically, the London Bridge - Victoria route had a proud record of running intensive services. It was for this service that Stroudley created his Terrier tanks.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I used it twice; in 2010 and 2011. It was a quiet little line, but having two trains an hour and not being on the tube map, what do you expect? It was a great train line to get from Victoria to Clapham if you couldn't face the Underground. I think the people of Clapham North would have been quite happy for a Victoria service in the 2019 morning crush loads.

 

[zwk500]

What was the reaction when the London service was cut off from these stations, making them orbital?

Specifically on this point, the improvement of new trains, particularly with wide doorways, and running to Clapham Junction in the west and onto the ELL (for tube connections) in the East massively boosted patronage.

 

[30907]

Historically, the London Bridge - Victoria route had a proud record of running intensive services. It was for this service that Stroudley created his Terrier tanks.

The steam service in 1908 (Bradshaw p.187 on timetableworld.com) was about every 20min in the peaks; the electric service matched that, but the 3-car sets originally provided were soon reduced to 2. The 20min peak service survived till 1958, possibly a bit later.

Growing up in Shortlands, the SLL provided an occasional alternative route home from Victoria - it was never busy in the 60s, and after Victoria Station was rationalised in about 1980 the peak trains were cut back to Battersea Park to save paths/platforms. It served a number of niche flows as it crossed the main radial routes (tube, BR and bus) out of Central London.

 

[James H]

What was the reaction when the London service was cut off from these stations, making them orbital?

There were protests: https://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/6480

Transport campaigners and local politicians gathered at London Bridge Station on Saturday morning to mark the final day of the inner South London Line service to Victoria via Peckham Rye.

Bermondsey & Old Southwark MP Simon Hughes (Lib Dem) and London Assembly member Val Shawcross (Labour) joined campaigners for a final ride on the South London Line on Saturday morning.

At London Bridge the activists handed out leaflets to alert passengers to the impending change.

 

[miklcct]

There were protests: https://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/6480

Thanks. It's again the DfT which refuses any rail improvement measures in London because they think that adding additional calls into the long distance trains will drive away passengers without considering that the rail service is more attractive by giving direct access to more destinations.

 

[zwk500]

Thanks. It's again the DfT which refuses any rail improvement measures in London because they think that adding additional calls into the long distance trains will drive away passengers without considering that the rail service is more attractive by giving direct access to more destinations.

The Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook was written by people who knew what they were doing...

 

[yorkie]

Thanks. It's again the DfT which refuses any rail improvement measures in London because they think that adding additional calls into the long distance trains will drive away passengers without considering that the rail service is more attractive by giving direct access to more destinations.

I don't understand what point you are making but clearly more people benefit from the current service. Those complaining do not always represent a majority.

 

[miklcct]

I don't understand what point you are making but clearly more people benefit from the current service. Those complaining do not always represent a majority.

Those long distance trains into Kent don't call in inner London, with first station usually Bromley South.

Why do you think more people benefit by not having trains which allow people to get to more useful destinations while paying a cheaper non-Zone 1 fare?

 

[zwk500]

I don't understand what point you are making but clearly more people benefit from the current service. Those complaining do not always represent a majority.

From previous experience the point that he was making is that having to double back is bad and that Intercity trains should stop more.often so that passengers can always travel the 'right' direction.

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks. It's again the DfT which refuses any rail improvement measures in London because they think that adding additional calls into the long distance trains will drive away passengers without considering that the rail service is more attractive by giving direct access to more destinations.

A link to Clapham Junction was much more useful for people on the South London Line travelling out of London than one to Victoria.

 

[30907]

A link to Clapham Junction was much more useful for people on the South London Line travelling out of London than one to Victoria.

...and of course the major stations of Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye had the alternative SE services.

 

[Timmyd]

It’s definitely been an improvement. The real shame is that there was and remains no station at Brixton where it sails over the main road, that would open up a lot of new links. Was there ever a station at Brixton on this line?

 

[PGAT]

Was there ever a station at Brixton on this line?

I believe there was until 1916

 

[etr221]

It’s definitely been an improvement. The real shame is that there was and remains no station at Brixton where it sails over the main road, that would open up a lot of new links. Was there ever a station at Brixton on this line?

The South London line (ex LBSCR) had a station 'East Brixton' until 1976 - see http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/e/east_brixton/index.shtml
There were platforms on the LCDR at Brixton for (their) trains heading east to Loughborough Junction and Denmark Hill, which were closed in 1916. The SLL/LBSCR line sailed straight over Brixton (LCDR) at a higher level

I understand that when the South London/Atlantic line was being upgraded for Channel Tunnel traffic (1980s/90s) there were proposals to put in platforms for it at Brixton Station, but these didn't come to anything.

 

[zwk500]

It’s definitely been an improvement. The real shame is that there was and remains no station at Brixton where it sails over the main road, that would open up a lot of new links. Was there ever a station at Brixton on this line?

It's on TfL's list of 'Things we'd like to do', I believe.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

If they have a spare £300m. The Atlantic lines are high and curved.

 

[duncombec]

Thanks. It's again the DfT which refuses any rail improvement measures in London because they think that adding additional calls into the long distance trains will drive away passengers without considering that the rail service is more attractive by giving direct access to more destinations.

Those long distance trains into Kent don't call in inner London, with first station usually Bromley South.

Why do you think more people benefit by not having trains which allow people to get to more useful destinations while paying a cheaper non-Zone 1 fare?

In my experience, the DfT has it more right than you here. When you're travelling 50+ miles, on a journey that may take more than an hour, you don't want to start calling at random South East London stations "just in case" someone wants to use them. I'd estimate the number of passengers desiring a direct link from, say, Canterbury to Penge East to be somewhere in the region of zero, whilst those travelling in reverse would be happy to change, cross-platform if memory serves correct, at Bromley South.

From my station, there are three trains an hour to Victoria. One nearly all stops to Bromley South (not Bickley), then Denmark Hill and London Victoria. One is semi-fast to Bromley, then direct to London Victoria. One is fast to Bromley, then Victoria. Perhaps you'd care to guess which is the least popular? South East London is not a top destination for most people travelling outside of London, and there are good reasons why Denmark Hill is the chosen station.

Similarly, why do you think lots of commuters like to get the non-stop services to Bromley South, rather than the all-stops service, even though the all-stops in theory gives them "useful destinations"?

 

[nw1]

Those long distance trains into Kent don't call in inner London, with first station usually Bromley South.

Isn't that necessary though to avoid Kent passengers having a very slow journey into/out of London? Generally long-distance trains only call at notably important inner London stations, such as Clapham Junction. There is no such station on that line.

 

[contrex]

I have an elderly relative who dislikes trains that call at inner SE London stations because she has read about 'steamers'. She definitely won't go on the South London line for that reason. Also the bloke murdered and shoved out at Penge East or somewhere like that?

 

[yorksrob]

On the subject of inner London stops, I've often wondered whether stopping some Kent Coast services at New Cross might bring better interchange opportunities to the East London line and whether this might outweigh the disbenefit of the slightly longer journey time.

 

[PGAT]

On the subject of inner London stops, I've often wondered whether stopping some Kent Coast services at New Cross might bring better interchange opportunities to the East London line and whether this might outweigh the disbenefit of the slightly longer journey time.

The problem with that is New Cross doesn’t have any platforms on the Charing Cross/Fast lines

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with that is New Cross doesn’t have any platforms on the Charing Cross/Fast lines

Indeed. And it's probably a bit of an irony that it's one of the few suburban stations on the route that wasn't built with them. That aside, if money were available to build them, would it be well used I wonder.

 

[PGAT]

That aside, if money were available to build them, would it be well used I wonder.

Looking at next-door New Cross Gate, chances are they probably won't be used

 

[zwk500]

On the subject of inner London stops, I've often wondered whether stopping some Kent Coast services at New Cross might bring better interchange opportunities to the East London line and whether this might outweigh the disbenefit of the slightly longer journey time.

It may have had a case between the ELL upgrade and the Elizabeth line opening, but now the only place better than London Bridge/Cannon Street for interchange is Woolwich or abbey wood

 

[30907]

Indeed. And it's probably a bit of an irony that it's one of the few suburban stations on the route that wasn't built with them.

Revealing my age or your youth, it certainly did until the 70s remodelling

That aside, if money were available to build them, would it be well used I wonder.

No (though the season ticket stats would show otherwise, as it's a well known split). The ELL is only every 15min, and it's easy enough to change at Orpington or Sevenoaks.

 

[yorksrob]

Revealing my age or your youth, it certainly did until the 70s remodelling

So it did !

It's a shame they got rid of them !

 

[30907]

It's a shame they got rid of them !

It allowed the reversible 5th track through NX though