Off Peak should be determined by looking up the train, not by the ticket held

[miklcct]

Moderator note: Split from

Super off peak return validity Letchworth to Leamington Spa

I will be travelling this week from Letchworth Garden City to Leamington Spa, returning on the same day. The journey planners are not showing any itineraries for the super off peak return for services departing Letchworth before 0930. I purchased this ticket for a journey last month from the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Why don't we end this mess by defining peak / off-peak validity on trains rather than on the ticket? If the peak definition is on the train there will be no such loopholes possible.

 

[Adam Williams]

Why don't we end this mess by defining peak / off-peak validity on trains rather than on the ticket? If the peak definition is on the train there will be no such loopholes possible.

It's defined this way at the Paddington gateline !

 

[JonathanH]

If the peak definition is on the train there will be no such loopholes possible.

How would that work in practice? It isn't much use to have a train leaving London at 0800 that is still a peak train between Darlington and Newcastle well after 1000.

It has, at a stroke, removed much of their competitive advantage over other TOCs.

Does that matter to them?

 

[Kite159]

Why don't we end this mess by defining peak / off-peak validity on trains rather than on the ticket? If the peak definition is on the train there will be no such loopholes possible.

I look forward for you to tell a passenger at Newton Abbot that they need a peak ticket if they want to travel on the 0820 Aberdeen to Plymouth service to Plymouth as it's a peak time due to departing at 08;20

 

[miklcct]

I look forward for you to tell a passenger at Newton Abbot that they need a peak ticket if they want to travel on the 0820 Aberdeen to Plymouth service to Plymouth as it's a peak time due to departing at 08;20

That train will be off-peak at the time it departs Newton Abbot.

A train may be a peak train for part of the journey, and an off-peak train for the remainder. This model will suit afternoon peak Thameslink trains which can run as an off-peak train on the way to London and a peak train after entering the core, and passengers making a cross-London journey can split ticket at the core entrance.

 

[Hadders]

Why don't we end this mess by defining peak / off-peak validity on trains rather than on the ticket? If the peak definition is on the train there will be no such loopholes possible.

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross with the following theoretical itinerary:

Edinburgh 08:00
Newcastle 09:30
Darlington 09:50
York 10:35
Doncaster 11:00
Peterborough 11:30
Stevenage 12:00
Kings Cross 12:30

Is this a peak or off-peak train? I assume peak under your plan?

If it's a peak train then what ticket do I require to travel on it from Stevenage to Kings Cross?

Then let's pretend there's a train from Leeds to Kings Cross with this itinerary:

Leeds 09:40
Wakefield 09:55
Doncaster 10:10
Grantham 10:30
Stevenage 11:50
Kings Cross 12:20

What ticket is needed to travel from Stevenage to Kings Cross? I assume Off Peak under your plan?

So travelling from Stevenage to Kings Cross on the 11:50 train would require an Off Peak ticket but travelling 10 minutes later would need a Peak ticket.

Can you see the problem with your proposal?

 

[miklcct]

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross with the following theoretical itinerary:

Edinburgh 08:00
Newcastle 09:30
Darlington 09:50
York 10:35
Doncaster 11:00
Peterborough 11:30
Stevenage 12:00
Kings Cross 12:30

Is this a peak or off-peak train? I assume peak under your plan?

If it's a peak train then what ticket do I require to travel on it from Stevenage to Kings Cross?

Then let's pretend there's a train from Leeds to Kings Cross with this itinerary:

Leeds 09:40
Wakefield 09:55
Doncaster 10:10
Grantham 10:30
Stevenage 11:50
Kings Cross 12:20

What ticket is needed to travel from Stevenage to Kings Cross? I assume Off Peak under your plan?

So travelling from Stevenage to Kings Cross on the 11:50 train would require an Off Peak ticket but travelling 10 minutes later would need a Peak ticket.

Can you see the problem with your proposal?

The first will be off-peak from Newcastle, or off-peak for the whole journey as it is leaving a major city in the morning peak, depending on how we define the peak.

The second will be off-peak all the way.

 

[yorkie]

That train will be off-peak at the time it departs Newton Abbot.

Your proposal means more split ticketing then!

A train may be a peak train for part of the journey, and an off-peak train for the remainder. This model will suit afternoon peak Thameslink trains which can run as an off-peak train on the way to London and a peak train after entering the core, and passengers making a cross-London journey can split ticket at the core entrance.

So basically anyone who doesn't use a split ticketing site is going to be ripped off even more than they are now!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2023 ==

The first will be off-peak from Newcastle, or off-peak for the whole journey as it is leaving a major city in the morning peak, depending on how we define the peak.

It's your proposal, so you define it.

But if you said the train is peak all the way, that means Stevenage to London ends up being a right mess as even at midday some of the trains are "peak"!

And don't go trying to catch the 1600 from King's Cross for the short hop from Stonehaven to Aberdeen late at night!

 

[Hadders]

The first will be off-peak from Newcastle, or off-peak for the whole journey as it is leaving a major city in the morning peak, depending on how we define the peak.

The second will be off-peak all the way.

That sounds like a recipe for more complication.

Let's say that the Edinburgh to London train becomes Off Peak at Newcastle. What ticket does a passenger travelling from Edinburgh to Peterborough need, peak or off peak? Most of the journey will be when the train is designated as off peak?

What about someone connecting into the train? Say someone making a journey from Berwick to London who changes train at Newcastle? What about someone ytravelling from someehere like Hexham to London changing at Newcastle?

It seems to me that it's much easier to define peak or off peak by ticket rather than train.

 

[miklcct]

It's your proposal, so you define it.

But if you said the train is peak all the way, that means Stevenage to London ends up being a right mess as even at midday some of the trains are "peak"!

And don't go trying to catch the 1600 from King's Cross for the short hop from Stonehaven to Aberdeen late at night!

For example, the proposal can be:

Define commuter areas around major cities: London, Birmingham, Manchester, etc. All trains within the commuter area which arrives there between 07:00 - 10:00, or depart there between 16:00 - 19:00 are peak trains. Similar restriction is placed on major interchanges such as Clapham Junction, Watford Junction, Reading, etc. and there will be blanket ban on off-peak ticket on these peak trains.

Of course Edinburgh is outside the London commuter area so it is not affected, but if Edinburgh has it's own commuter area it will be in effect as well, so a peak ticket may be required for part of the journey.

That sounds like a recipe for more complication.

Let's say that the Edinburgh to London train becomes Off Peak at Newcastle. What ticket does a passenger travelling from Edinburgh to Peterborough need, peak or off peak? Most of the journey will be when the train is designated as off peak?

In this case, split ticketing is needed.

What about someone connecting into the train? Say someone making a journey from Berwick to London who changes train at Newcastle? What about someone ytravelling from someehere like Hexham to London changing at Newcastle?

It depends if the trains used will enter the commuter area to major cities or not.

It seems to me that it's much easier to define peak or off peak by ticket rather than train.

Then if we add the same restrictions (i.e. not valid to arrive London Terminals between 07:00 and 10:00 or depart London Terminals between 16:00 and 19:00, similarly for every major cities), no matter what journey it is, we can achieve the same effect. So an off-peak ticket from let's say Southampton to Waterloo, Manningtree and Ipswich will contain the same restrictions such that no loophole will occur.

A cross-London peak ticket can be used to enter London in the morning peak, breaking the journey there and leaving in the evening peak. If entering London in the peak and continuing the journey immediately off-peak, split ticketing is needed.

 

[yorkie]

For example, the proposal can be:

Define commuter areas around major cities: London, Birmingham, Manchester, etc. All trains within the commuter area which arrives there between 07:00 - 10:00, or depart there between 16:00 - 19:00 are peak trains. Similar restriction is placed on major interchanges such as Clapham Junction, Watford Junction, Reading, etc. and there will be blanket ban on off-peak ticket on these peak trains.

Of course Edinburgh is outside the London commuter area so it is not affected, but if Edinburgh has it's own commuter area it will be in effect as well, so a peak ticket may be required for part of the journey.


In this case, split ticketing is needed.


It depends if the trains used will enter the commuter area to major cities or not.


Then if we add the same restrictions (i.e. not valid to arrive London Terminals between 07:00 and 10:00 or depart London Terminals between 16:00 and 19:00, similarly for every major cities), no matter what journey it is, we can achieve the same effect. So an off-peak ticket from let's say Southampton to Waterloo, Manningtree and Ipswich will contain the same restrictions such that no loophole will occur.

A cross-London peak ticket can be used to enter London in the morning peak, breaking the journey there and leaving in the evening peak. If entering London in the peak and continuing the journey immediately off-peak, split ticketing is needed.

Basically your proposal is to massively expand split ticketing; split ticketing would be needed on any journey that is taking place during any part of the morning and/or evening peak.

Is your proposal that the average person simply pays peak for most longer journeys or that the train companies adopt split ticketing?

Right now, split ticketing is a useful part of the yield management strategy of companies like Cross Country; it's a useful way to get those willing to pay a premium to pay more while still conveying some passengers on a budget and turning away enough passengers to get away with running shorter trains than would otherwise be required.

However under your proposal, split ticketing would be essential for many more journeys to be a remotely sensible price. If this meant XC themselves had to offer split ticketing, then that would be to their detriment as it would no longer be a yield management tool and would reduce the company's income.

Ada and Bert from Paignton who wants to visit grandchildren in Leeds are prepared to pay £120+ each for their journey and are happy to pay the premium to book direct on a through fare. Noah the student travelling on the reverse direction knows about split ticketing sites and is able to get a ticket within his budget at £60. If Ada and Bert in future would be paying £200 peak, they would no longer choose to travel by train. If XC had to offer splits to get round that, all the Ada and Bert like passengers would be paying less in future.

Have you considered that?

 

[miklcct]

Basically your proposal is to massively expand split ticketing; split ticketing would be needed on any journey that is taking place during any part of the morning and/or evening peak.

Is your proposal that the average person simply pays peak for most longer journeys or that the train companies adopt split ticketing?

Right now, split ticketing is a useful part of the yield management strategy of companies like Cross Country; it's a useful way to get those willing to pay a premium to pay more while still conveying some passengers on a budget and turning away enough passengers to get away with running shorter trains than would otherwise be required.

However under your proposal, split ticketing would be essential for many more journeys to be a remotely sensible price. If this meant XC themselves had to offer split ticketing, then that would be to their detriment as it would no longer be a yield management tool and would reduce the company's income.

Ada and Bert from Paignton who wants to visit grandchildren in Leeds are prepared to pay £120+ each for their journey and are happy to pay the premium to book direct on a through fare. Noah the student travelling on the reverse direction knows about split ticketing sites and is able to get a ticket within his budget at £60. If Ada and Bert in future would be paying £200 peak, they would no longer choose to travel by train. If XC had to offer splits to get round that, all the Ada and Bert like passengers would be paying less in future.

Have you considered that?

Split ticketing should be proactively offered by ticket offices and ticket machines if this is adopted, in form of the question asked for a cross-city journey:

Will you leave London / Reading / Birmingham / etc. (as appropriate to the route of the ticket) during the evening peak (with a button showing the exact time on the ticket machine)? Yes/No.

Then the appropriate ticket(s) can be sold.

 

[30907]

What is the arrangement for journeys that cross a city centre. Leeds for example (WY will certainly insist on peak times!) :
Shipley to Leeds at 0900 is peak.
Shipley to London? Scarborough? Newcastle? Edinburgh (and what if I want Togo via Carlisle?)
Similarly Cricklewood to Plymouth? To Sheffield via the quickest route with fewest changes?

 

[yorkie]

Split ticketing should be proactively offered by ticket offices and ticket machines if this is adopted, in form of the question asked for a cross-city journey:

Did you read what I said earlier? Would you increase subsidy to compensate?

Will you leave London / Reading / Birmingham / etc. (as appropriate to the route of the ticket) during the evening peak (with a button showing the exact time on the ticket machine)? Yes/No.

Then the appropriate ticket(s) can be sold.

That sounds very complicated.

How could someone travelling from Arbroath to Torquay be expected to know if their train will pass through any of these stations at "peak time"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reality of this is that it is impossible to have walk up off peak tickets with no anomalies at all, which is probably why we are one of the few countries that do.

 

[PeterC]

I tend to be sympathetic with the concept but, to quote a saying, "if I was going there I wouldn't start from here".

To go in that direction would need quite a few years preparatory reform of both who sets fares and what the fares are.