SWR Class 458 to be retained

[gazr]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but which vehicle is being removed from the formation? 744xx, 740xx or 741xx. Thanks.

 

[fgwrich]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but which vehicle is being removed from the formation? 744xx, 740xx or 741xx. Thanks.

I can’t remember which number, but it will be the ex Gatwick Express vehicle (744xx I believe).

 

[43096]

I can’t remember which number, but it will be the ex Gatwick Express vehicle (744xx I believe).

Correct, it is the ex-460 car (744xx). The other two cannot be removed as they either contain the PRM toilet and wheelchair spaces or are motor cars.

 

[WarrenTManager]

I can’t remember which number, but it will be the ex Gatwick Express vehicle (744xx I believe).

Yes the ex-460 ‘BZ’ car will be removed, as stated in the 744xx series.

Formation returns to :

DMCO 676 BJ car
TOSLW 740 BK car
MOSL 741 BL car
DMCO 677 BM car

(460 cars were AA to AH, 334 cars I believe are CN/CO/CP)

 

[gazr]

Thanks fgwrich, 43096 and WarrenTManager for the replies.

 

[Class450/4DES]

458417 Early April. Widnes

It really suits the 458. I am just looking forward for them to enter service with SWR.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It really suits the 458. I am just looking forward for them to enter service with SWR.

They look incredibly, incredibly smart. I can’t wait for them to run.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

It's written on the front

You can’t see it in that picture?

 

[XAM2175]

You can’t see it in that picture?

I get the impression that hapt1n's source might have conveyed that information to them separately. The wink face is probably not meant to be read as a "look harder" jibe.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I get the impression that hapt1n's source might have conveyed that information to them separately. The wink face is probably not meant to be read as a "look harder" jibe.

Oh right. That’s usually what people mean by that on this forum

 

[47444]

Correct, it is the ex-460 car (744xx). The other two cannot be removed as they either contain the PRM toilet and wheelchair spaces or are motor cars.

On the subject of which, did 74425 of 458505 go to Widnes with the rest of the unit? Whether it did or not has it been dispatched for scrap?

 

[CR165022]

On the subject of which, did 74425 of 458505 go to Widnes with the rest of the unit? Whether it did or not has it been dispatched for scrap?

It went with the rest of the unit, whether it's been been scrapped since then I don't know

 

[Jturner98]

some of the ex 460 carriages are at Long Marston

 

[Cheg1]

I posted the picture for general interest following the earlier comment 'I have not seen any photos'

For clarity, it was taken a few months ago and I do have the owners permission to upload it.

Who was the photo owner ?
Reliable source?

 

[47444]

It went with the rest of the unit, whether it's been been scrapped since then I don't know

Thanks

 

[Jturner98]

Saw this on YouTube, not my video so credits go to the creator. Look at about 7:40 and you’ll see 2 ex 458/460 carriages.

 

[Cletus]

You never know your luck.

It has donated some parts that were on long lead times but they have to be refitted for handback or return to service whichever way it pans out.

Well you said this about 458534 in January and today being in London I spied it on RTT and so managed to clear the class

 

[antharro]

So let me get this straight. The purpose built GatEx 460s were withdrawn so that the 458s could be extended to 5 carriages, with the remaining 460 carriages being scrapped. They're now removing one GatEx carriage from each 5 carriage set to reduce them back to 4 carriages? Apart from the benefit of the extra complete trains that were primarily comprised of 460 carriages, what a waste.

 

[Snow1964]

So let me get this straight. The purpose built GatEx 460s were withdrawn so that the 458s could be extended to 5 carriages, with the remaining 460 carriages being scrapped. They're now removing one GatEx carriage from each 5 carriage set to reduce them back to 4 carriages? Apart from the benefit of the extra complete trains that were primarily comprised of 460 carriages, what a waste.

Yes but only 28 of 36 units.
The quantity is derived from substitution of the planned 442s in the 2017 Franchise Award (although questionable if still sensible)

2 of the original SWR units and the 6 that were rebuilt from class 460 Gatwick units are not being done.

Appears to be no long term plan for the remaining 8 units, or the 28 spare intermediate cars. Probably be stored for a while.

No idea if someone could make up 8 x 8car and haul (or push-pull) the spare ones, having modified to work with a class 67, 68 etc to provide relief trains on non electrified diversions, but do not want to go speculatively off topic.

 

[Roger B]

Yes but only 28 of 36 units

2 of the original SWR units and the 6 that were rebuilt from class 460 Gatwick units are not being done.

Appears to be no long term plan for the remaining 8 units, or the 28 spare intermediate cars. Probably be stored for a while.

No idea if someone could make up 8 x 8car and haul (or push-pull) the spare ones, having modified to work with a class 67, 68 etc to provide relief trains on non electrified diversions, but do want to go speculatively off topic.

I suspect you intended to insert a 'not' between 'do' and 'want' in your final paragraph - but if I'm wrong you certainly achieved your objective of going speculatively (even spectacularly) off topic!

 

[Wolfie]

So let me get this straight. The purpose built GatEx 460s were withdrawn so that the 458s could be extended to 5 carriages, with the remaining 460 carriages being scrapped. They're now removing one GatEx carriage from each 5 carriage set to reduce them back to 4 carriages? Apart from the benefit of the extra complete trains that were primarily comprised of 460 carriages, what a waste.

As l recall the 460s had been withdrawn well before the extension of the 458s. That was, at least in part, done to utilise assets which were otherwise of no use.

 

[cactustwirly]

So let me get this straight. The purpose built GatEx 460s were withdrawn so that the 458s could be extended to 5 carriages, with the remaining 460 carriages being scrapped. They're now removing one GatEx carriage from each 5 carriage set to reduce them back to 4 carriages? Apart from the benefit of the extra complete trains that were primarily comprised of 460 carriages, what a waste.

They were withdrawn because they were surplus to requirements, having been replaced by the 442s.

They were then used in the 458 project, because they are very similar mechanically and SWT needed 10 cars on the Windsor lines.

Times change and they are being replaced by 701s eventually. They need to be 4 car lengths on the Portsmouth line

 

[WarrenTManager]

They need to be 4 car lengths on the Portsmouth line

They need to be 4 cars to have capability to run at 100mph.

 

[Snow1964]

They need to be 4 cars to have capability to run at 100mph.

There is nowhere on Portsmouth direct line (via Petersfield) where they could do 100mph. But there are 100mph sections via Basingstoke & Fareham which are currently 444 operated.

However SWR published Info suggests they are for Portsmouth direct. So not clear why they need 100mph capability unless they are expected to work both routes.

 

[moley]

They need the 100mph capability for Woking - Waterloo where sections are above 75mph on the fast.

 

[pompeyfan]

They’d also need 100mph capability to circulate via Bournemouth depot on some Poole services.

 

[XAM2175]

So let me get this straight. The purpose built GatEx 460s were withdrawn so that the 458s could be extended to 5 carriages, with the remaining 460 carriages being scrapped. They're now removing one GatEx carriage from each 5 carriage set to reduce them back to 4 carriages? Apart from the benefit of the extra complete trains that were primarily comprised of 460 carriages, what a waste.

They were withdrawn because they were surplus to requirements, having been replaced by the 442s.

The 460s were withdrawn between 2010 and 2012, replaced by 442s because the 460 fleet was not large enough to support the 4tph GatEx service after it started to be extended to Brighton. This would have happened regardless of what happened to the 458s.

Porterbrook, who owned both the 458 and 460 fleets, proposed the idea of making up the 458/5s to SWT and the DfT because it was a win-win: SWT wanted more capacity on suburban services and Porterbrook didn't want to get stuck with a useless fleet that nobody else wanted.

As l recall the 460s had been withdrawn well before the extension of the 458s. That was, at least in part, done to utilise assets which were otherwise of no use.

Not quite; the conversion project was agreed in January 2012, before all the 460s left GX. Some might have been sitting around for a year or two, but in overall terms it was virtually back-to-back.

 

[fgwrich]

Porterbrook, who owned both the 458 and 460 fleets, proposed the idea of making up the 458/5s to SWT and the DfT because it was a win-win: SWT wanted more capacity on suburban services and Porterbrook didn't want to get stuck with a useless fleet that nobody else wanted.

And of course the idea put forward by Angel of more 450s (or was it extended 450s?) was deemed too expensive.

 

[XAM2175]

And of course the idea put forward by Angel of more 450s (or was it extended 450s?) was deemed too expensive.

IIRC they wanted more units. I suspect they proposed that because it would be easier than having to deal with a small subclass of five-car units, but yes, either way, the DfT weren't having it.

 

[southern442]

Appears to be no long term plan for the remaining 8 units, or the 28 spare intermediate cars. Probably be stored for a while.

They'll probably end up needing to milk those extra 8 for as long as they can given how the 701 introduction is going (or more accurately, isn't going). I'd suspect the 707s go first, then the 28 458s, then 455s, then the last 8 458s.

 

[Snow1964]

IIRC they wanted more units. I suspect they proposed that because it would be easier than having to deal with a small subclass of five-car units, but yes, either way, the DfT weren't having it.

What the DfT eventually agreed to is in the SWR agreement (pages 70-71)

Class 458. 180 vehicles in 5car
270 seats, 2 wheelchair, 279 standing
Leased from Porterbrook to 21 August 2027

* 112 vehicles will be retained, being reconfigured during 2022 and 2023 to make up 28 4-car units with reconfigured interior and a different capacity that includes first class. Remainder of fleet will only stay on lease until they are cascaded out during 2021/22 (the lease allowing for redelivery in line with cascade requirements).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1024656/first-mtr-south-western-trains-ltd-rail-contract.pdf