SWR Class 458 to be retained

[XAM2175]

What the DfT eventually agreed to is in the SWR agreement (pages 70-71)

No, we were referring to the situation in the years up to 2012, before the 458/0 to 458/5 conversion program was initiated.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is for discussion of the SWR Class 458 retention. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread elsewhere.

thanks

 

[Invincible]

It really suits the 458. I am just looking forward for them to enter service with SWR.

I presume the 3rd 458 unit will take a few weeks to finish the refurb?, Then tested as a 12 car train at Widnes before moving to the Portsmouth line to do more tests, before entering service. As they have been recently in service should not give many problems, unless they have a major software rewrite?.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I presume the 3rd 458 unit will take a few weeks to finish the refurb?, Then tested as a 12 car train at Widnes before moving to the Portsmouth line to do more tests, before entering service. As they have been recently in service should not give many problems, unless they have a major software rewrite?.

There will need to be a software change I would suspect as the formation will have change.

The refurbishment and contact was agreed before the post covid outcome of changes so although the refurb seems committed it’ll be interesting to see when they are actually needed/budgeted to be in traffic. Just because they are refurbished it doesn’t mean they actually have to enter traffic straight away.

 

[TEW]

There certainly don't appear to be any plans for them to enter service at the moment at least.

 

[Goldfish62]

There certainly don't appear to be any plans for them to enter service at the moment at least.

That seems to be the default state for any stock introduced on SWR.

 

[TEW]

That seems to be the default state for any stock introduced on SWR.

Maybe I should have said intention rather than plan given the 701s.

 

[Bigfoot]

ASLEF have made it clear that they will only accept to drive the units for passenger use if the cab is also refurbished. They have only agreed to drive them for testing/certification in their return to 4car configuration.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

ASLEF have made it clear that they will only accept to drive the units for passenger use if the cab is also refurbished. They have only agreed to drive them for testing/certification in their return to 4car configuration.

There certainly don't appear to be any plans for them to enter service at the moment at least.

It very much sounds like the continued refurbishment is around fulfilling contractual obligations as opposed to needing to get them into traffic.

 

[fgwrich]

ASLEF have made it clear that they will only accept to drive the units for passenger use if the cab is also refurbished. They have only agreed to drive them for testing/certification in their return to 4car configuration.

That's understandable, I had a look around a cab a few years ago and they were in a rather tired state. Mind you, my biggest complaint if I were a driver would be the rather naff TMS too.

 

[swr444]

That's understandable, I had a look around a cab a few years ago and they were in a rather tired state. Mind you, my biggest complaint if I were a driver would be the rather naff TMS too.

Rather is an understatement!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

ASLEF have made it clear that they will only accept to drive the units for passenger use if the cab is also refurbished. They have only agreed to drive them for testing/certification in their return to 4car configuration.

What’s wrong with the cabs then?

 

[Snow1964]

ASLEF have made it clear that they will only accept to drive the units for passenger use if the cab is also refurbished. They have only agreed to drive them for testing/certification in their return to 4car configuration.

Very strange as the majority of the 458s are being driven currently, without another refurbishment.

And to some extent the 5car 458s seem to have become a preference to operate, rather than use the 701s.

 

[Mordac]

What’s wrong with the cabs then?

They have a door open and close button.

 

[XAM2175]

Very strange as the majority of the 458s are being driven currently, without another refurbishment.

I suspect that the reasoning is that if that if the passenger spaces are being refurbished, the cabs should also receive similar treatment. As the majority of 458s have not yet been refurbished, the cabs remain acceptable.

 

[Invincible]

British Rail Class 458 - Alchetron, The Free Social Encyclopedia

The South West Trains (SWT) Class 458 (previously also known as 4JOP) outersuburban electric multiple units were built by Alstom at Washwood Heath between 1998 and 2002. The 30 fourcar units are part of Alstom's Juniper family of trains, which also includes Classes 334 and 460. These trains have b

alchetron.com

Looks like the 458s were originally to replace the slam door class 411s on the long distance express routes, and why they have wide 2x2 seating, but due to problems just used on less busy outer suburban routes, with Desiros being used to replace 411s instead
I remember lots of reboots!, But a lot of problems were fixed. The 2013 458 refurb updated the TMS, so a further update should not be as problematic as the 442.
The 2x2 seating when reupholstered, and first class reinstated, should suit the Waterloo to Portsmouth line well, but will need a few test runs to test before doing more refurbs when the 701s release more 458s.

 

[43096]

British Rail Class 458 - Alchetron, The Free Social Encyclopedia

The South West Trains (SWT) Class 458 (previously also known as 4JOP) outersuburban electric multiple units were built by Alstom at Washwood Heath between 1998 and 2002. The 30 fourcar units are part of Alstom's Juniper family of trains, which also includes Classes 334 and 460. These trains have b

alchetron.com

Looks like the 458s were originally to replace the slam door class 411s on the long distance express routes, and why they have wide 2x2 seating, but due to problems just used on less busy outer suburban routes, with Desiros being used to replace 411s instead.

The 458s were 2+3 seating when built and were intended as VEP replacements.

 

[Goldfish62]

British Rail Class 458 - Alchetron, The Free Social Encyclopedia

The South West Trains (SWT) Class 458 (previously also known as 4JOP) outersuburban electric multiple units were built by Alstom at Washwood Heath between 1998 and 2002. The 30 fourcar units are part of Alstom's Juniper family of trains, which also includes Classes 334 and 460. These trains have b

alchetron.com

Looks like the 458s were originally to replace the slam door class 411s on the long distance express routes, and why they have wide 2x2 seating, but due to problems just used on less busy outer suburban routes, with Desiros being used to replace 411s instead
I remember lots of reboots!, But a lot of problems were fixed. The 2013 458 refurb updated the TMS, so a further update should not be as problematic as the 442.
The 2x2 seating when reupholstered, and first class reinstated, should suit the Waterloo to Portsmouth line well, but will need a few test runs to test before doing more refurbs when the 701s release more 458s.

No, they were ordered for the Reading line and were built with very cramped 2+3 seating format. For several years they ran on nothing but Reading and Ascot - Aldershot services. They were converted to 2+2 (and some 1+1) inner suburban format when lengthened to 5 coaches.

 

[XAM2175]

Looks like the 458s were originally to replace the slam door class 411s on the long distance express routes, and why they have wide 2x2 seating, but due to problems just used on less busy outer suburban routes, with Desiros being used to replace 411s instead

... why on earth are you using that website as a source? It's copy of the Class 458 Wikipedia article that somebody took a while back, and then stripped all the citations out of. If you look at Wikipedia it'll at least tell you where the information's come from (most of the time, anyway).

 

[Flange Squeal]

They have a door open and close button.

Given the right side buttons were replaced when the larger GSM-R Radio unit had to be squeezed in to replace the smaller CSR Radio unit, and the left side buttons went when the Driver Advisory System screen was fitted, the only way for drivers to do the doors in the cabs' current state would be for them to have to get up out the seat and use the Guard's ones on the cab bulkhead while facing away from the likely position of any in-cab CCTV screens. I'd imagine it would therefore actually be in ASLEF's interests NOT to push for a cab refurb, if they didn't want their members doing the doors! I'd presume that if there is indeed a call from them for the cabs to be refurbished before their members drive them, then it would actually be more coming from a place of the fact the cabs have had bits 'bolted on' and the like over time but not actually refurbished since being built over 20 years ago.

 

[Invincible]

No, they were ordered for the Reading line and were built with very cramped 2+3 seating format. For several years they ran on nothing but Reading and Ascot - Aldershot services. They were converted to 2+2 (and some 1+1) inner suburban format when lengthened to 5 coaches.

Thanks for the info, Wikipedia has reduced the info, and the bit where it was to be a replacement for the slam door 411 express (which would have been 2x2 seating) to Portsmouth and other destinations in 1998/2002 (to later be used by Desiros due to 458 problems). Perhaps now been removed (and simplified) from Wiki?.
For the Reading and Windsor lines would have thought 3x2 seating would have been better to give more people seating, but the refurb with 2x2 seating and handrails probably had the London stations in mind to give more standing room?.
In a way the 2x2 seating (with no handrails) suits the latest refurb and return to Portsmouth working.
Here is the link I found to the before and after interior photos.

Class 458

67601 74001 74101 67701 Previous Numbers 458001 / 458501 Previous Formations 67601 74431 74001 74101 67701 Dud For Haulage

www.mattypsrailwaypics.com

 

[Rick1984]

Did they have air conditioning when built?

 

[JonathanH]

Did they have air conditioning when built?

Yes

 

[southern442]

Do you think it's possible they might put the refurbished ones back into service on the suburban routes whilst the 701 introduction is still being worked out?

 

[Invincible]

The 458s were 2+3 seating when built and were intended as VEP replacements.

Thanks it is hard to find info on the early 458s. Some wiki and other websites say there were replacements for the 411 CIG trains (with 2x2 seating) and some websites replacements for the VEPs (with 3x2 seating).
As they had 3x2 seating looks like you are right and were VEP replacements.
Looks like Alstom might have been hoping they would win the 2nd tender to replace the rest of the outer suburban and Portsmouth main line slam door fleet, but due to various initial problems on the Juniper 458s lost out to the Siemens Desiros?.

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks it is hard to find info on the early 458s. Some wiki and other websites say there were replacements for the 411 CIG trains (with 2x2 seating) and some websites replacements for the VEPs (with 3x2 seating).
As they had 3x2 seating looks like you are right and were VEP replacements.
Looks like Alstom might have been hoping they would win the 2nd tender to replace the rest of the outer suburban and Portsmouth main line slam door fleet, but due to various initial problems on the Juniper 458s lost out to the Siemens Desiros?.

They were not replacements for the Class 411s. They were for slam door replacement on the Reading line. I went to a talk by the project manager soon after the trains were ordered and that is what he stated. The stuff about Class 411 replacement with 2+2 seating is without foundation.

Due to the poor design of the units Alstom proposed "Juniper 2" for the main slam door replacement programme, but by then it was too late. Its reputation was irreparably tarnished.

The reason a small batch of non-standard trains were ordered was an instruction from the DfT, both regarding Stagecoach's purchase of Porterbrook and also as a "punishment" for the very poor initial performance of the franchise.

 

[Invincible]

They were not replacements for the Class 411s. They were for slam door replacement on the Reading line. I went to a talk by the project manager soon after the trains were ordered and that is what he stated. The stuff about Class 411 replacement with 2+2 seating is without foundation.

Thanks for clarification, guess it may have been reported on in the printed railway magazines at the time?.
Apart from the 455s and Desiros, SWT and SWR seem to have struggled with procurement.

 

[CR165022]

One of the units at being refurbished is currently sticking out of the depot at Widnes, with full SWR branding now applied onto its new livery

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

One of the units at being refurbished is currently sticking out of the depot at Widnes, with full SWR branding now applied onto its new livery

Any photos you may have would be really gratefully received. I personally am really very excited for these to come into service.

 

[NSEWonderer]

https://twitter.com/lokiavivson/status/1667113150796165121?s=46&t=OxOSTwUjZmBbdtDO_oZS4g

Have to say it looks good in the livery imo.