New Normanton/Castleford TPE services

[trv100]

Whats happening with the new TPE services running through NOR and CFD? ive heard dozens of "rumors" ranging from a liverpool to scarborough stopper to a huddersfield york twice hourly service.
whats actually happening with the services? its quite exciting knowing normantons finally getting some decent connections (again) but does anyone know planned services/timetables?

 

[nr758123]

It might happen in December 2023. TPE have some quite big issues about their ability to run their existing services which need to resolved first.

 

[YorksLad12]

As I understand it, it will be an extension of the Manchester Pic-Huddersfield stopper. It's tempting to say "Oh! it could run to Scarborough as well!" but that doesn't take into account pathing, crossing York Station, finding platforms, imported delays, etc.

The only thing we can say for certain is that the recently-revived Huddersfield-Castleford stopper from Northern is being pulled (as a train) in May.

 

[yorksrob]

It should come.

And the withdrawal of the Hudds-Castleford service is a disgrace. I'd say "heads should roll" but of course that should be central Government first and foremost.

 

[Spartacus]

It should come.

And the withdrawal of the Hudds-Castleford service is a disgrace. I'd say "heads should roll" but of course that should be central Government first and foremost.

The Huddersfield - Castleford stopper always seemed like a mistake, and was confirmed to me by a number of people. When it was direct to Westgate a lot used it to connect with services there. When it stopped going to Westgate loads stopped using it.

 

[daodao]

It's quite exciting knowing Normanton's finally getting some decent connections (again).

Really?! Won't TPE fast trains just run through Normanton non-stop? It's a minor town, not a city like Wakefield.

Historically, Normanton was a major stop and junction on 2 main lines (Leeds to London St Pancras, Liverpool Exchange to York) and was served by Liverpool-Newcastle restaurant car expresses, but has now been relegated from its former significance.

withdrawal of the Hudds-Castleford service is a disgrace

It's the least worst option for a ToC short of the wherewithal to run all its planned services.

 

[GardenRail]

The only thing we can say for certain is that the recently-revived Huddersfield-Castleford stopper from Northern is being pulled (as a train) in May.

Revived........? It's twice a day.

 

[yorksrob]

The Huddersfield - Castleford stopper always seemed like a mistake, and was confirmed to me by a number of people. When it was direct to Westgate a lot used it to connect with services there. When it stopped going to Westgate loads stopped using it.

There's a debate as to whether the service should go from Westgate or not, however at the moment there is nothing between Wakefield and Huddersfield through most of the day. That is the main problem.

Really?! Won't TPE fast trains just run through Normanton non-stop? It's a minor town, not a city like Wakefield.


It's the least worst option for a ToC short of the wherewithal to run all its planned services.

Government needs to do its job and get the trains running or step aside for someone who will.

 

[tbtc]

The Huddersfield - Castleford stopper always seemed like a mistake, and was confirmed to me by a number of people. When it was direct to Westgate a lot used it to connect with services there. When it stopped going to Westgate loads stopped using it.

I’d respectfully disagree

Given the limited number of paths across the flat ECML at Westgate, giving the Kirkgate-Westgate service to the Featherstone stopper has revitalised that line (compared to the days it lacked a direct Leeds link and just dumped everyone at Kirkgate)

The convenience of Huddersfield passengers who’d prefer to change from an hourly 150 at Wakefield to get to London (rather than taking a “frequent” modern TPE service and changing at Leeds instead) has to be taken into account but I think that this pales into insignificance compared to the increased number of passengers from Featherstone etc (that station alone went from 59k passengers in 2017/2018 to 76k in 2018/2020…)

Tanshelf went up from 28k to 53k in the same two years, although there’s presumably some abstraction there (but given the squeeze in capacity that Pontefract-Leeds services used to have due to the limited platform space at Leeds, it’s surely no bad thing if some Knottingley/ Pontefract passengers go via Featherstone thus freeing up seats for castleford passengers?)

Since our antiquated infrastructure means a DMU is apparently incapable of doing the “fifteen” mile journey from Huddersfield to Wakefield and same distance back again within an hour, it takes more than one unit to run the hourly service. Previously this meant bundling it into the Bradfords (another frustratingly short route that is frustratingly too long for one DMU to operate each hour). But if you are going to have two DMUs in just Huddersfield- Wakefield then using the spare time to extend them to castleford made some sense

What makes NO sense IMHO is running Huddersfield - Castleford - York trains, given how fast/frequent the two places have services already (via Leeds). If you must run an hourly service from castleford to York then surely it’s be an extension of the Barnsley stopper (with an additional Knottingley- Leeds service running through castleford to replace the Barnsley train through Woodlesford)

That would open up Barnsley to longer distance journeys (with Darton/ Normanton stops added to the “semi fasts” to give them an improved service to Leeds)

Government needs to do its job and get the trains running or step aside for someone who will.

We had people who did run a fairly reliable service on routes like Huddersfield - Wakefield

But some people complained that they were a “bus company”, or that shareholders were making a whopping three pence in the pound profit, or that they were spending too much on repainting the trains every seven years when the franchise ended

Now we have direct government control like the pro-Nationalisation people said that they wanted. And admittedly we also have practically no trains actually running from Huddersfield to Wakefield. But that’s what happens when the people running the trains can ignore inconvenient things like franchise commitments, because who’s going to fine the government?

 

[yorksrob]

I’d respectfully disagree

Given the limited number of paths across the flat ECML at Westgate, giving the Kirkgate-Westgate service to the Featherstone stopper has revitalised that line (compared to the days it lacked a direct Leeds link and just dumped everyone at Kirkgate)

The convenience of Huddersfield passengers who’d prefer to change from an hourly 150 at Wakefield to get to London (rather than taking a “frequent” modern TPE service and changing at Leeds instead) has to be taken into account but I think that this pales into insignificance compared to the increased number of passengers from Featherstone etc (that station alone went from 59k passengers in 2017/2018 to 76k in 2018/2020…)

Tanshelf went up from 28k to 53k in the same two years, although there’s presumably some abstraction there (but given the squeeze in capacity that Pontefract-Leeds services used to have due to the limited platform space at Leeds, it’s surely no bad thing if some Knottingley/ Pontefract passengers go via Featherstone thus freeing up seats for castleford passengers?)

Since our antiquated infrastructure means a DMU is apparently incapable of doing the “fifteen” mile journey from Huddersfield to Wakefield and same distance back again within an hour, it takes more than one unit to run the hourly service. Previously this meant bundling it into the Bradfords (another frustratingly short route that is frustratingly too long for one DMU to operate each hour). But if you are going to have two DMUs in just Huddersfield- Wakefield then using the spare time to extend them to castleford made some sense

What makes NO sense IMHO is running Huddersfield - Castleford - York trains, given how fast/frequent the two places have services already (via Leeds). If you must run an hourly service from castleford to York then surely it’s be an extension of the Barnsley stopper (with an additional Knottingley- Leeds service running through castleford to replace the Barnsley train through Woodlesford)

That would open up Barnsley to longer distance journeys (with Darton/ Normanton stops added to the “semi fasts” to give them an improved service to Leeds)



We had people who did run a fairly reliable service on routes like Huddersfield - Wakefield

But some people complained that they were a “bus company”, or that shareholders were making a whopping three pence in the pound profit, or that they were spending too much on repainting the trains every seven years when the franchise ended

Now we have direct government control like the pro-Nationalisation people said that they wanted. And admittedly we also have practically no trains actually running from Huddersfield to Wakefield. But that’s what happens when the people running the trains can ignore inconvenient things like franchise commitments, because who’s going to fine the government?

We still have franchising on TPE and they are struggling. The current malaise seems to be industry wide regardless of management model.

 

[507020]

What makes NO sense IMHO is running Huddersfield - Castleford - York trains, given how fast/frequent the two places have services already (via Leeds). If you must run an hourly service from castleford to York then surely it’s be an extension of the Barnsley stopper (with an additional Knottingley- Leeds service running through castleford to replace the Barnsley train through Woodlesford)

That would open up Barnsley to longer distance journeys (with Darton/ Normanton stops added to the “semi fasts” to give them an improved service to Leeds)

It makes perfect sense. Besides the obvious need for Huddersfield - Wakefield provision, given how congested Leeds station is, allowing passengers from west of the Pennines to reach York and the northbound ECML without needing to change at Leeds should contribute to reducing overcrowding on most other TPE services and at Leeds itself.

 

[YorksLad12]

Revived........? It's twice a day.

I didn't say that the patient was healthy, only that it had started breathing again.

What makes NO sense IMHO is running Huddersfield - Castleford - York trains, given how fast/frequent the two places have services already (via Leeds). If you must run an hourly service from castleford to York then surely it’s be an extension of the Barnsley stopper (with an additional Knottingley- Leeds service running through castleford to replace the Barnsley train through Woodlesford)

TBF, TPE could not run a service at all and just do the route knowledge; but someone decided to run them as revenue-attracting (I won't say "generating!") services. If Northern had the crew and units to extend from Castleford to York, they'd have the crew and units to run Huddersfield to Castleford (or even Kirkgate) in the first place.

It solves a problem for TPE, but creates a new one if not stopping at Normanton. Small town it might be (I've joked about it in the past) but the rail route provides better, faster end-to-end links than the local bus network.

 

[IanXC]

I don't think we can assume TPE won't call at Normanton. Remember that this is an extension of the Manchester Piccadilly to Huddersfield stopper which calls at Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite, and that the TPE Huddersfield to Leeds stopper calls at all stations - including Deighton and Mirfield.

 

[yorksrob]

Normanton generates decent numbers of passengers. Given that it stops everywhere else, it would be a missed opportunity not to stop there.

 

[YorksLad12]

Pathing might be an issue, obvs.

 

[yorksrob]

At least it will be replacing a service that already stops there.

Normanton seems to very much be the Cinderella of the Hallam line, so direct services to York/Hudds would help to address this.

That would rely on TPE running the service though.

 

[Iskra]

I’d respectfully disagree

Given the limited number of paths across the flat ECML at Westgate, giving the Kirkgate-Westgate service to the Featherstone stopper has revitalised that line (compared to the days it lacked a direct Leeds link and just dumped everyone at Kirkgate)

The convenience of Huddersfield passengers who’d prefer to change from an hourly 150 at Wakefield to get to London (rather than taking a “frequent” modern TPE service and changing at Leeds instead) has to be taken into account but I think that this pales into insignificance compared to the increased number of passengers from Featherstone etc (that station alone went from 59k passengers in 2017/2018 to 76k in 2018/2020…)

Tanshelf went up from 28k to 53k in the same two years, although there’s presumably some abstraction there (but given the squeeze in capacity that Pontefract-Leeds services used to have due to the limited platform space at Leeds, it’s surely no bad thing if some Knottingley/ Pontefract passengers go via Featherstone thus freeing up seats for castleford passengers?)

Since our antiquated infrastructure means a DMU is apparently incapable of doing the “fifteen” mile journey from Huddersfield to Wakefield and same distance back again within an hour, it takes more than one unit to run the hourly service. Previously this meant bundling it into the Bradfords (another frustratingly short route that is frustratingly too long for one DMU to operate each hour). But if you are going to have two DMUs in just Huddersfield- Wakefield then using the spare time to extend them to castleford made some sense

What makes NO sense IMHO is running Huddersfield - Castleford - York trains, given how fast/frequent the two places have services already (via Leeds). If you must run an hourly service from castleford to York then surely it’s be an extension of the Barnsley stopper (with an additional Knottingley- Leeds service running through castleford to replace the Barnsley train through Woodlesford)

That would open up Barnsley to longer distance journeys (with Darton/ Normanton stops added to the “semi fasts” to give them an improved service to Leeds)



We had people who did run a fairly reliable service on routes like Huddersfield - Wakefield

But some people complained that they were a “bus company”, or that shareholders were making a whopping three pence in the pound profit, or that they were spending too much on repainting the trains every seven years when the franchise ended

Now we have direct government control like the pro-Nationalisation people said that they wanted. And admittedly we also have practically no trains actually running from Huddersfield to Wakefield. But that’s what happens when the people running the trains can ignore inconvenient things like franchise commitments, because who’s going to fine the government?

I worked at Westgate while the Huddersfield service called there, and it was very popular with Huddersfield passengers changing for London. Those same passengers now drive to Westgate instead as the parking is (or was) significantly cheaper than at Leeds and it's more reliable and nicer than wedged TP Huddersfield-Leeds.

I agree that the Featherstone stopper has been revitalised, but is there a way for both services to be accommodated? It seems odd to be only catering for demand for one of the two options, when both are clearly viable when they run in to Westgate.

At least it will be replacing a service that already stops there.

Normanton seems to very much be the Cinderella of the Hallam line, so direct services to York/Hudds would help to address this.

That would rely on TPE running the service though.

The entire Hallam Line is a Cinderella line. I can't think of another line that's as stagnant, with sub-standard train formations and a deliberately circuitous journey that causes those short formation units to be rammed with commuters to the point that you can't even board at Leeds in the evening because you've been dislodged by Castleford commuters, who have another option whereas it's another hour wait for stations further a field, for your deliberately slow journey, if you can even get on the next one... Shambolic.

 

[yorksrob]

I worked at Westgate while the Huddersfield service called there, and it was very popular with Huddersfield passengers changing for London. Those same passengers now drive to Westgate instead as the parking is (or was) significantly cheaper than at Leeds and it's more reliable and nicer than wedged TP Huddersfield-Leeds.

I agree that the Featherstone stopper has been revitalised, but is there a way for both services to be accommodated? It seems odd to be only catering for demand for one of the two options, when both are clearly viable when they run in to Westgate.


The entire Hallam Line is a Cinderella line. I can't think of another line that's as stagnant, with sub-standard train formations and a deliberately circuitous journey that causes those short formation units to be rammed with commuters to the point that you can't even board at Leeds in the evening because you've been dislodged by Castleford commuters, who have another option whereas it's another hour wait for stations further a field, for your deliberately slow journey, if you can even get on the next one... Shambolic.

Normanton is a Cinderella of a Cinderella in that case. West Yorkshire sees it as second tier compared to Airedale (as an example) and South Yorkshire doesn't seem that bothered about anything North of Barnsley.

The Hudds - Cass service albeit sparse, did at least give a few extra journey opportunities from Leeds of an evening by changing at Kirkgate, but even this will be disrupted.

 

[xotGD]

Airedale

You're forgetting that Airedale is losing a chunk of its services to and from Bradford.

Mind, you could say that we have more than enough capacity - on my commute home yesterday on the 17.42 off Leeds I had a bay of 6 to myself.

 

[yorksrob]

You're forgetting that Airedale is losing a chunk of its services to and from Bradford.

Mind, you could say that we have more than enough capacity - on my commute home yesterday on the 17.42 off Leeds I had a bay of 6 to myself.

That's a fair point. The North seems to be seeing some cuts.

The Hallam is definitely showing the need for three carriage trains these days. About time they sorted out platform 17 at Leeds, another thing at the back of the queue.

Grumbling aside, Castleford station's looking a bit more shipshape these days.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We still have franchising on TPE and they are struggling. The current malaise seems to be industry wide regardless of management model.

I believe there are no franchises any more, just management contract direct awards on covid recovery terms (or similar OLR contracts), pending new NRCs with "GBR".
All the outstanding commitments made when competing for the franchise are dead, unless directly contracted with the DfT.
DfT can also change the delivery spec/timetable at any time.

As I understand it, GBR will simply be the DfT at one remove, and regionally managed.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe there are no franchises any more, just management contract direct awards on covid recovery terms (or similar OLR contracts), pending new NRCs with "GBR".
All the outstanding commitments made when competing for the franchise are dead, unless directly contracted with the DfT.
DfT can also change the delivery spec/timetable at any time.

As I understand it, GBR will simply be the DfT at one remove, and regionally managed.

They were franchises when the DfT pushed through the current agreements, which suggests that no form of ownership/management would have been allowed to stand in the way of Treasury parsimony.

 

[Adam0984]

I worked at Westgate while the Huddersfield service called there, and it was very popular with Huddersfield passengers changing for London. Those same passengers now drive to Westgate instead as the parking is (or was) significantly cheaper than at Leeds and it's more reliable and nicer than wedged TP Huddersfield-Leeds.

I agree that the Featherstone stopper has been revitalised, but is there a way for both services to be accommodated? It seems odd to be only catering for demand for one of the two options, when both are clearly viable when they run in to Westgate

A simple solution could be an intermediate signal on platform 1 at Westgate in the northbound direction, the Hudds terminator stops at the south end of the platform then just shunts onto the through road and then shunts back out 30 mins later

 

[YorksLad12]

A simple solution could be an intermediate signal on platform 1 at Westgate in the northbound direction, the Hudds terminator stops at the south end of the platform then just shunts onto the through road and then shunts back out 30 mins later

That's assuming the through road isn't ever needed at those times. The previous terminators used to pull into a siding north of the station, I think.

Not sure we need two trains per hour in each direction between Westgate and Kirkgate though!

 

[Adam0984]

The through road is barely used during the day and anything that does can go none stop through 2. They went all the way upto Wrenthorpe siding previous which took time because of the slow crossover and entry into the sidings.
It's not about Kirkgate to Westgate it's about connecting Huddersfield to Westgate again

 

[Iskra]

Could a Huddersfield service join with a Normanton at Kirkgate and head to Westgate, thus saving a path up to Westgate?

 

[trv100]

A simple solution could be an intermediate signal on platform 1 at Westgate in the northbound direction, the Hudds terminator stops at the south end of the platform then just shunts onto the through road and then shunts back out 30 mins later

why not use the prison spur directly to the north of pl2

 

[johntea]

Why don’t Northern just put in the Normanton call in for all their Nottingham services?

They already do this for the 17:09 from Leeds, it adds a whole extra minute to the journey time looking at the planner!

 

[yorksrob]

Why don’t Northern just put in the Normanton call in for all their Nottingham services?

They already do this for the 17:09 from Leeds, it adds a whole extra minute to the journey time looking at the planner!

It's a question I've been asking for the last fifteen years or so.

Realistically the station deserves a roughly half-hourly service to Leeds/Sheffield.

However, with the whole railway on the slide, I've given up hoping for improvements.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could a Huddersfield service join with a Normanton at Kirkgate and head to Westgate, thus saving a path up to Westgate?

The short answer is no. Currently nothing that serves Normanton goes to Westgate, the service that uses the Wakefield curve comes from the Featherstone/Crofton line. I also doubt there's the right type of signalling (permissive?) at Wakefield Kirkgate to allow splitting and joining, especially in Platform 3 which is the only one with access to the lines via Crofton.

That's before you get into the matters of incompatible stock, as the future service from Huddersfield will be a TPE 185. I'd like to think this would be able to call additionally at Mirfield on the way to and from Casvegas/Wakopulco, but I expect it will run fast unfortunately.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2023 ==

why not use the prison spur directly to the north of pl2

Back when the Huddersfield ran to Westgate it used to use that turnback, but for the last few years Wrenthorpe loop was usually used instead. Not sure why this change was made, but I suspect flexibility was a factor: the Prison spur is only available to/from the down platform, whereas Wrenthorpe loop allows either platform to be used. It wasn't unusual for a last-minute platform alteration to take place due to a delayed Intercity.